Members Markf Posted July 24, 2003 Members Share Posted July 24, 2003 It seems to me that music theory falls very short and is almostremiss in explaining the chromatic intervals. Oh sure it'll teach youdiatonic harmony and the functional names for Doe, Re, Mi, Fa, SolLa, Ti and so on, but those in between notes(the colorful ones)?well you have to kind of glean that on your own. To me diatonic means: within a key! or between two tonics, Doe and octave Doe. But the ebony keys man, they're in there too, and they get short-changed! They're passed by. I prefer the guitar because it increments in two dimensions and those unisons are handy thereby making it a most profound tool. Does theory only get into chromatics in a jazz approach? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terje Posted July 24, 2003 Members Share Posted July 24, 2003 Originally posted by Singingax I've started a revolution! Don't flatter yourself. The diatonic system does short change five tones of the chromatic scale, but the diatonics will argue that they aren't used in 95% of music so why worry about them. First of all my friend the major scale and it's modes is what makes up most of our music. I dare you to prove me wrong here. The major scale is the pattern that will come again and again, in different keys but always the same pattern, not the chromatic scale. So, it's actually easier to learn this way. If you actually tried you'd know Look, the system was invented before the tempered scale. Then it wasn't changed. Why? We'll know when you have given it a try, won't we Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members vote4dicktaid Posted July 24, 2003 Members Share Posted July 24, 2003 Originally posted by Singingax Ever hear of Jazzz or the Blues? Now, I'm no jazzzer, but I do know this: the blues scale ressembles the pentatonic minor scale a lot. Right? From where do we have the pentatonic minor scale? - yup, the major scale and its modes, in this case the Aeolian scale. Originally posted by Singingax Not when you end up calling one pitch by more than one name. Again, this is the part we'll never agree on. 'Cause this is what makes it more simple, more logical = easier, to me. Not to you apparently, but whatever... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members improvjedi Posted July 24, 2003 Members Share Posted July 24, 2003 so, I'm simply a wannabe jazz guitarist but I have studied some and am always trying to figure out how bird did his thing and whatnot, and here's some info on chromatics... take the bebop scale for instance, a major scale with both 7's i.e. C-D-E-F-G-A-Bb-B...that extra note (Bb) is a chromatic note added to make the scale 8 notes, which means that if on beat 1 you play a chord tone (1,3,5,b7) and move either direction through this scale in 8th notes, every down beat will be a chord tone of the dominant chord. it's really cool once you get it. Also, you can pretty much use all/any notes to solo on jazz, it's really just a question of WHEN you use the notes. You can nearly always approach a chord tone from a half step away as long as the approach is on an "&" and the chord tone is on a down beat. 8-7-6-5------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------8-6-5-------------------------------------------------------- ----------------7-5-----7---------------------------------------------- ---------------------9-8--7-5--------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- that is a cliche example of the chromaticism in the bebop scale. those are straight 8th notes. so yeah...I really have no idea, there better be someone on this thing with more knowledge than me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Markf Posted July 24, 2003 Author Members Share Posted July 24, 2003 Singingax, easy, easy.... now. I worry about Friedrich Nietzsche quoters:cool: I'm interested in any opinion, received or unreceived, on how to approach this portable orchestra/guitar. A hard enough task for me was organizing the matrix of the fretboard. Locating every- thing, and knowing diatonic harmony won't teach that. Diatonic harmony is too logical, yet music expresses that which has nothing to do with logic. Its our feelings we're interested in. We also need a better way to show how this chord will make you feel greater if you follow or precede it with this chord. We use words like FUNCTION as though we're in an algebra classroom. Theory points to a lot of random relationships that I wonder about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Auggie Doggie Posted July 24, 2003 Members Share Posted July 24, 2003 Originally posted by Markf I'm interested in any opinion, received or unreceived, on how toapproach this portable orchestra/guitar. A hard enough task forme was organizing the matrix of the fretboard. Locating every-thing, and knowing diatonic harmony won't teach that. Diatonicharmony is too logical, yet music expresses that which has nothing to do with logic. Its our feelings we're interested in. Wealso need a better way to show how this chord will make you feelgreater if you follow or precede it with this chord. We use wordslike FUNCTION as though we're in an algebra classroom. Theorypoints to a lot of random relationships that I wonder about. Music is MORE than just 'feelings'...there are other elements involved, and logic IS a component of it...especially with regard to form and structure. And the use of the word 'function' is rather dissimilar to how it's used in an Algebra classroom; I would know, as I teach math. Intervals, chords, and their relationship to all the others in a piece DO have functions that derive their musical meaning from context. EVERY conceivable note or chord in EVERY conceivable setting DOES have a name AND a known function. Musical devices are not the work of the devil, and they are not something to be avoided because they don't represent 'pure emotion'. You may wish to study the concept of monotonality, as you will see how ANY note or chord, no matter how distant from the original tonic it may be, relates to the tonic. They are not random relationships at all. As for their 'emotional' content, it's what you make of them. While the vast majority of musicians think that minor keys=sad or dark music, they aren't necessarily correct. MANY happy pieces of music have been written in minor keys....less so nowadays, but a couple hundred years ago, it was not at all unusual. So, it's how you USE and PERCEIVE the material....musical structures don't acquire an 'emotional' meaning until they are heard, and everyone hears things differently. But they are NOT random or undefined relationships; you simply haven't gotten into the deeper aspects of theory that cover them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Flanger Posted July 24, 2003 Members Share Posted July 24, 2003 Originally posted by Markf But the ebony keys man, they're in there too, and they get short-changed! They're passed by. Only if you never leave C Major/A minor. Maybe you should expand your horizons a bit before you start lecturing us on theory. I suggest starting with G Major. It's only got one "ebony key", so it shouldn't be too difficult to get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Markf Posted July 24, 2003 Author Members Share Posted July 24, 2003 O.K. Auggie Doggie, I meant no disrespect. I'll search monotonality and essay an abstract in future discussions. About these deeper aspects of theory you mentioned? Care to elaborate on them? I learn best using the Socratic method.Ten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members improvjedi Posted July 24, 2003 Members Share Posted July 24, 2003 "I think Db major is the best!" "GO to hell!! it's all about F# your momma"! "Flat my nine, biatch" hmm..speaking of rediculous chromatics, any of ya'll kind folk ever heard Eric Dolphy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Markf Posted July 24, 2003 Author Members Share Posted July 24, 2003 Hey Flanger, I wasn't being didactic!! I'm here to learn like you. I can't tell you how to interpret my posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Flanger Posted July 24, 2003 Members Share Posted July 24, 2003 Originally posted by Markf Hey Flanger, I wasn't being didactic!! I'm here to learn like you.I can't tell you how to interpret my posts. No, you were telling us that when we play diatonically, we don't use the black keys. "Ebony keys" are only "in between notes" if they aren't a part of the key being played. In some keys, "white keys" are "in between notes", like a natural C in the key of E Major. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members vote4dicktaid Posted July 24, 2003 Members Share Posted July 24, 2003 Originally posted by Singingax I've started a revolution! Nah, not yet. Originally posted by Singingax For example, the C Ionian mode: RT- W- W-H- W- W- W- RT 0-1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12 C @ D # E F $ G % A & B C 0-1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12 Just keep those basic components in mind when applying the many different theories of music and the rest will take care of itself. Just like real music notation! Not as simple and logical, though. Unless you play chromatic all the way, that is. Originally posted by Singingax P.S. The diatonic system does short change five tones of the chromatic scale, but the diatonics will argue that they aren't used in 95% of music so why worry about them. Or they might argue that the fact that the pitches change names makes the system more musically logical and practical... but we've been through that, you know...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Markf Posted July 24, 2003 Author Members Share Posted July 24, 2003 I used a keyboard as an analogy! When your learning music theory the diatonic tones(regardless of your tonic) are more emphasized than the in betweens! You know what I meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members riffdaddy Posted July 28, 2003 Members Share Posted July 28, 2003 Originally posted by Singingax I've started a revolution! WOW!!! You're, like, totally right! Before you showed up, all of us were playing nothing but major scales. You've shown us that other notes exist, and for that, we're eternally grateful.Idiot.Flanger, Mark doesn't mean "ebony keys" in a literal manner. He's talking about the five notes not included in the major scale and their relationship to the tonic. (At least, I think that's what he's after.) Mark, it sounds like you need somebody to teach you chromaticism. Music theory does an excellent job of teaching it, as long as you're getting your theory from a good source. Where are you learning theory from? Perhaps I can help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terje Posted July 28, 2003 Members Share Posted July 28, 2003 Originally posted by Singingax Ever hear of Jazz or the Blues? The question is; have you? The things in blues that are hard to explain using our old notation system are the microtones that should be used to make the scale sound right. But you "system" does not have a solution for that either. That's EXACTLY right, "it was invented before the tempered scale". So why use it WITH (what was then the not yet invented) tempered scale.Cause it's the system that hass been used for ages, everybody (except you of course) understand it. 12 pitches and 12 half-steps everything else is just an application thereof. (in the tempered scale)hey, how do you combine the tempered scale with the blues actually? Can you answer that smartass? And Markf, checkout something called the "Duke Miller zone system". It is based on the 12 chromatic pitches. (as is the tempered scale)This sounds interesting. Elaborate please. Diatonicism is for dinosaurs! Chromaticism for the charismatic! Chromaticism isn't the basis of our music, the major scale is the one pattern that comes again and again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Markf Posted July 28, 2003 Author Members Share Posted July 28, 2003 Riffdaddy, Thanks for clarifying. Your correct on what I meant. Everything I know about music theory, I picked up very informally from just threads I've read in different forums, either here or the AG forums. I also have Bill Edwards' book called Fretboard Logic, and a manual I bought from an instructor I once had. Don't worry I'm not as confused as you might think. I just need a broader understanding of it like someone said. Actually its in reading threads like this one or starting threads like this one, that help me greatly, believe it or not! And Anomandaris's thread on modes/tonality is excellent. Also I did look into the concept of monotonality as Auggie Doggie mentioned, this is great stuff! I just keep plodding away. Tying it all together is very hard cause I can't see all the relationships just yet, but I know it takes time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Auggie Doggie Posted July 28, 2003 Members Share Posted July 28, 2003 Originally posted by Markf And Anomandaris's thread on modes/tonality is excellent. Also I did look into the concept of monotonality as Auggie Doggie mentioned, this is great stuff! I just keep plodding away. Tying it all together is very hard cause I can't see all the relationships just yet, but I know it takes time. I'm glad you found some information on monotonality. If you can find a copy of Schoenberg's Theory of Harmony or Structural Functions of Harmony, you'll probably get a much better understanding of all of the relationships that are eluding you at the present.But the one thing that most of the guys here are trying to stress (with one notable exception) to you is that, before you try and lay the blame on your as-yet-incomplete understanding of theory on the system we've got, you should study it more. The answers are in there; and they're there in spades.As I pointed out countless times to said exception, we've got hundreds of years of music under the current system's belt. The finest composers and players in the history of Western music have understood and used the system, and they don't seem to have been hindered, confused, or frustrated by it. Undermining or otherwise finding fault and shortcomings with the system is really finding fault and shortcomings with them. Our system allows for an INFINITE amount of music; it's anything BUT lacking. And one thing I want to suggest to you is that, in your pursuit of knowledge and understanding of theory, don't limit your scope of study to just those resources geared for guitar. You can always apply what you learn to any instrument, to any style, and to any composition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MorePaul Posted July 28, 2003 Members Share Posted July 28, 2003 Originally posted by Markf It seems to me that music theory falls very short and is almostremiss in explaining the chromatic intervals. Oh sure it'll teach youdiatonic harmony and the functional names for Doe, Re, Mi, Fa, SolLa, Ti and so on, but those in between notes(the colorful ones)?well you have to kind of glean that on your own. Hey mark - there's actually solfege names for all 12 and you can use descending ones to if you want, or you can just go with the acending ones So you could go Do Di Re Ri Mi Fa Fi Sol Si La Li Ti Do Or descending Do Ti Te La Le Sol Se Fa Mi Me Re Ra Do Or descending you could sing the ascending scale backward and no one is going to make a fuss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Markf Posted July 28, 2003 Author Members Share Posted July 28, 2003 thanks paul. I'll try singing that when I'm alone. I often tryto sing the modes using do,re,mi..... then re,mi,fa,sol..... etc. andthats hard. But it helps train the ear I think. Auggie, I'll look for Schoenbergs book. But I'll tell ya, I thinkthat Chart of the Regions looks extremely complex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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