CAGED theory and modes/scales

[djchase7]

I understand that the CAGED method is a good tool help learn the visualization of the fret board. I have learned the five positions, so now what? I know they connect sequentially up in down in an interlocking/overlapping order, but how do I use this to my advantage?

 

Are the five positions of CAGED the same as modes I, II, III, V, VI ? If so, are modes IV and VII just overlapping half steps between E&F and B&C? Should I concentrate more on note names or scale shapes? If it of any help, I

[Poparad]

CAGED is primarily a way to visualize the scale patterns on the neck, and it sounds like you completely understand that.


Keep in mind though, that the 5 positions do not correspond with the modes. A mode doesn't have to start on a specific note, and vice versa, if you start the major scale on a particular note other than 1 doesn't mean you're playing modes. Modes have to do with the chords they go with, and not the scale degrees you start or end on.



From here, I would highly recommend learning the note names on the fretboard, as it will open up a lot of doors for you in applying theory and seeing how scales relate to chords.

Again, CAGED is just a way to visualize the scale patterns. What you do with those scale patterns is much more important, and is what you should focus on from here on out now that you can play the scales.

[bassmantele]

Take a look at this pdf file. It begins with three of the caged forms using the G major pentatonic scale for simplicity . Below that is the multiple ways you can connect the three.
As you pointed out, the different forms overlap - that's key. In order to fully use the caged forms, you need to 1. learn each form alone, and 2. learn to shift from one to another. When you can use the forms to move up and down the neck as well as you can move across the strings in one position, then you're starting to master the instrument.


Edit: don't worry about modes. It's a trivial subject that gets talked about far too much on these forums. If you can play major and minor pentatonics, everything else is under your fingers.

[Knottyhed]

Originally posted by Poparad CAGED is primarily a way to visualize the scale patterns on the neck, and it sounds like you completely understand that. Keep in mind though, that the 5 positions do not correspond with the modes. A mode doesn't have to start on a specific note, and vice versa, if you start the major scale on a particular note other than 1 doesn't mean you're playing modes. Modes have to do with the chords they go with, and not the scale degrees you start or end on. From here, I would highly recommend learning the note names on the fretboard, as it will open up a lot of doors for you in applying theory and seeing how scales relate to chords. Again, CAGED is just a way to visualize the scale patterns. What you do with those scale patterns is much more important, and is what you should focus on from here on out now that you can play the scales.

 

 

Hmmm modes that old chestnut, i've been reading alot on this and i still don't quite understand how these are meant to be applied. As I understand it - if I had a typical progression in the key of G - say Gmaj, Am, Dmaj

 

If i just play the G-major scale then I'm playing G ionion over the G chord, A dorian over Am and D mixolodian over D major... i'm not doing anything over than play the right scale for the key the song is in... surely, with the amount of time people invest in discussing this, there must be more to it?

 

I've read a couple of posts saying things like I can play D dorian (i.e. the C maj scale) over a G7 chord... but no theoretical explaination as whty?

[red|dragon]

because the ii chord and the V are the same thing.

Play a D Dorian Scale - write down the notes in teh scale
Play a G mixolydian scale - write down the notes in the scale

They are the same notes. Therefore the same scale. Therefore the same chord.

the vii chord is also the same thing as ii and V

[Poparad]

Originally posted by Knottyhed Hmmm modes that old chestnut, i've been reading alot on this and i still don't quite understand how these are meant to be applied. As I understand it - if I had a typical progression in the key of G - say Gmaj, Am, Dmaj If i just play the G-major scale then I'm playing G ionion over the G chord, A dorian over Am and D mixolodian over D major... i'm not doing anything over than play the right scale for the key the song is in... surely, with the amount of time people invest in discussing this, there must be more to it? I've read a couple of posts saying things like I can play D dorian (i.e. the C maj scale) over a G7 chord... but no theoretical explaination as whty?

 

 

 

You're right when it comes to diatonic progressions that modes aren't really worth it to bother with. (However, the one thing that can be benifited from it is that each mode will force you to focus on the chord tones of each chord, but that can be done without thinking about modes too).

 

Modes come into play when you're dealing with progressions that aren't all in a major/minor key. Those chords that don't fit into the key suddenly make a lot of sense when you can identify what mode goes with them. In the end, it ends up being exactly as you already described it: a scale for each chord, except whereas in your example, it all ended up being the same scale, in a non-diatonic progression (not all in a single key) it ends up being different scales. This is where it makes sense to apply modes.

[Knottyhed]

Originally posted by red|dragon because the ii chord and the V are the same thing. Play a D Dorian Scale - write down the notes in teh scale Play a G mixolydian scale - write down the notes in the scale They are the same notes. Therefore the same scale. Therefore the same chord. the vii chord is also the same thing as ii and V

I've seen a number of your posts and you clearly know your theory - so don't think i'm tyring to start a theory argument, but i'm still not getting it:

D Dorian = D, E, F#, G, A, B, C, D (scale of g major)
G Mixolydian = G, A, B, C, D, E, F, G (scale of c major)

They aren't the same scale as far as i can see

I can however see that the chord of Gmaj is the V chord of C major, and so I suppose if you were thinking about it chordally - then you could play a Cmajor scale over a Gmaj chord even if the overall progression is in the key of G (of course you'd have to switch on the chord change or you'd be out of key). Is this what modes are about?

[Knottyhed]

Originally posted by Poparad You're right when it comes to diatonic progressions that modes aren't really worth it to bother with. (However, the one thing that can be benifited from it is that each mode will force you to focus on the chord tones of each chord, but that can be done without thinking about modes too). Modes come into play when you're dealing with progressions that aren't all in a major/minor key. Those chords that don't fit into the key suddenly make a lot of sense when you can identify what mode goes with them. In the end, it ends up being exactly as you already described it: a scale for each chord, except whereas in your example, it all ended up being the same scale, in a non-diatonic progression (not all in a single key) it ends up being different scales. This is where it makes sense to apply modes.

 

 

OK - i think maybe i get it. Taking the Gmaj as an example -

 

Gmaj appears in the key of C, D, G

 

C maj scale starting on G is G lydian

D maj scale starting on G is G mixolodian

G maj scale starting on G is G ionian

[raggety]

Originally posted by Knottyhed I've seen a number of your posts and you clearly know your theory - so don't think i'm tyring to start a theory argument, but i'm still not getting it: D Dorian = D, E, F#, G, A, B, C, D (scale of g major) G Mixolydian = G, A, B, C, D, E, F, G (scale of c major) They aren't the same scale as far as i can see I can however see that the chord of Gmaj is the V chord of C major, and so I suppose if you were thinking about it chordally - then you could play a Cmajor scale over a Gmaj chord even if the overall progression is in the key of G (of course you'd have to switch on the chord change or you'd be out of key). Is this what modes are about?

D Dorian is the second mode of C major, as G Mixolydian is the fifth mode of C major. thats how they're the same scale

C ionian
D dorian
E prhygian
F lydian
G mixolydian
A aeolian
B locrian

[Poparad]

Originally posted by Knottyhed D Dorian = D, E, F#, G, A, B, C, D (scale of g major) G Mixolydian = G, A, B, C, D, E, F, G (scale of c major) They aren't the same scale as far as i can see

Here's what's throwing you:

D dorian = D E F G A B C D (C major scale)

You just had an F# instead of an F. Hopefully now it makes sense.


However, I disagree that Dm and G are the same chords. Their function is similar, but they're different enough chords that they are seperate from each other. If they were the same, then a ii-V vamp would have no interest, as both the chords would theoretically sound the same. However, in reality they do sound different, thus a ii-V progression has motion between the chords.

It's one thing to say that ii and V are the same in function (which again, they're similar, but not identical), but I don't agree that they are the same chord, even though they draw from the same scale. V and I are both from the same parent major scale, but they are very different chords functionally and sonically when heard next to each other.

[Poparad]

Originally posted by Knottyhed OK - i think maybe i get it. Taking the Gmaj as an example - Gmaj appears in the key of C, D, G C maj scale starting on G is G lydian D maj scale starting on G is G mixolodian G maj scale starting on G is G ionian

 

 

 

C major scale starting on G is G mixolydian

D major scale starting on G is G lydian

 

But think you're getting a bit.

 

 

Take this set of chords: | Gm7 | Gmaj7 |

 

 

They are clearly not from the same key, so in order to make a melody for them or to improvise over them, it is necessary to use two different scales. My choices would be G dorian (F major) and G lydian (D major). You could also go with a simple G major sclae for Gmaj7 too.

 

This is a situation in which using modes makes plenty of sense, but most of the music people make tends to be purely diatonic (within one key), making modes confusing as the place where you'd use them is not a part of their vocabulary.

[Knottyhed]

Originally posted by Poparad Here's what's throwing you: D dorian = D E F G A B C D (C major scale) You just had an F# instead of an F. Hopefully now it makes sense.

 

 

Duh - i somehow got it into my head that D dorian was the dorian scale of G when it'd be A dorian.... thanks

[Knottyhed]

Originally posted by Poparad C major scale starting on G is G mixolydian D major scale starting on G is G lydian But think you're getting a bit. Take this set of chords: | Gm7 | Gmaj7 | They are clearly not from the same key, so in order to make a melody for them or to improvise over them, it is necessary to use two different scales. My choices would be G dorian (F major) and G lydian (D major). You could also go with a simple G major sclae for Gmaj7 too. This is a situation in which using modes makes plenty of sense, but most of the music people make tends to be purely diatonic (within one key), making modes confusing as the place where you'd use them is not a part of their vocabulary.

Brilliant! Thanks guys, i really think i might actually have this down now - i just need to actually try and apply it now

Apologies to the original poster for hi-jacking the thread!

[red|dragon]

It's just a way to simpify things. If you have a song that has a million chords and you look at every chord individually, it's going to be hard as hell. Ok I play D dorian here and then play G mixolydian here and then C major scale here and then my Bmin7b5 arpeggio here and my A dorian scale for this chord and my D mixolydian scale for this chord and my diminished scale for this diminshed chord.

It's a lot of {censored}ing scales! But what if you have a upbeat tempo? How the hell do you play all those scales in such a short period of time? You simplify things.

There are actually only 2 modes. But...I'll let you figure it out for yourself, because it took my forever to finally realize it. Yep. 2 modes.

Also another interesting concept...

There is no such thing as a diminished chord. You here people go on and on about diminished "Oh you play half whole half whole" crap. Way too confusing. Then people play that stupid diminished scale, it always sounds the same way every single time. One player who I love dearly is Al DiMeola, but he is guilty of this crime.

So try this...

Whenever you see a diminished chord you should hear alarms going off in your head. Do not look at it as a diminished chord.

If you have a F#dim7 chord, play D7b9. Never ever play a "diminished" chord ever again. Don't say diminished. Don't think diminished. Think of the dominant chord relationship.

F#dim7 = D7b9

[red|dragon]

I'll make a thread about it...

[Poparad]

Originally posted by red|dragon So try this... Whenever you see a diminished chord you should hear alarms going off in your head. Do not look at it as a diminished chord. If you have a F#dim7 chord, play D7b9. Never ever play a "diminished" chord ever again. Don't say diminished. Don't think diminished. Think of the dominant chord relationship. F#dim7 = D7b9

F#dim7 also equals F7b9, Ab7b9, and B7b9


While there is some merit to keeping things simple, there's also a lot to be gleamed from by looking at things in as many ways as possible. By having multiple perspectives on a single topic, you can have a greater overall "big picture" grasp on the idea, and also have more ways to use it.

If I never thought F#dim7, I wouldn't know anything about diminished sequences, and I also wouldn't know the symmetry between the four Dom7b9 chords above.

There are times for simplistic thinking, but in the long run, it's much better to have more trick and tools at hand than only having one, tired way of doing things. Variety is the key.

Another thing you mentioned, about thinking of a lot of scales quickly, while yes, initially it is a hard task, but your mind can be trained to think that fast. Just look at a beginner and see how long it takes them to switch between open chords on guitar, while to more advanced players we don't even have to think about it. With practice and experience, the mental legwork involved is reduced to almost nothing, and it no longer becomes a herculean task of mental fortitude, but rather is as simple as speaking our native language. With practice and experience, all this can become easy, so I don't believe in eschewing an approach to anything merely because it initially is 'hard to do.' If music were easy, everyone would be great at it.


Perhaps another thread would be a good idea.... I feel a little guilty hijacking this thread too.

[red|dragon]

the 2 most important scales to know are major and dorian. it's up to you to learn all the others, if you think you need them

[nylon rock]

djchase7, your original question was what do you do now that you know the 5 shapes...do you connect them?

What I'd recommend is you start associating the chords that go with the key of those CAGE shapes. Definitely get yourself comfortable up on the fingerboard.

Play a barre chord and then go nearby to part of one of the positions and fool around with the notes and the chords. It will all sound good since everything is in key.

Get comfortable enough, and you'll find that the CAGE shapes become a palette to color your music from. Each shape has a slightly different emphasis toward coloring music because of ease of fingering, connection techniques to get you to the adjacent CAGE shapes, and ease of chord fragments that lie right beneath your fingers.

When it suddenly clicks for you, you'll find that you will effortlessly be able to create beautiful music, and it will involve chords and rhythm with scales and riffs.

[djchase7]

Originally posted by nylon rock djchase7, your original question was what do you do now that you know the 5 shapes...do you connect them? What I'd recommend is you start associating the chords that go with the key of those CAGE shapes. Definitely get yourself comfortable up on the fingerboard. Play a barre chord and then go nearby to part of one of the positions and fool around with the notes and the chords. It will all sound good since everything is in key. Get comfortable enough, and you'll find that the CAGE shapes become a palette to color your music from. Each shape has a slightly different emphasis toward coloring music because of ease of fingering, connection techniques to get you to the adjacent CAGE shapes, and ease of chord fragments that lie right beneath your fingers. When it suddenly clicks for you, you'll find that you will effortlessly be able to create beautiful music, and it will involve chords and rhythm with scales and riffs.

 

 

no worry about the hi-jacking. It's starting to all click. If I play the E scale shape of CAGED on the 5th fret, then I can play an A bar chord and it all works right. then if I move up the neck and play the next shape (D) I'm still in key with the A bar chord, right?

[Poparad]

Originally posted by djchase7 no worry about the hi-jacking. It's starting to all click. If I play the E scale shape of CAGED on the 5th fret, then I can play an A bar chord and it all works right. then if I move up the neck and play the next shape (D) I'm still in key with the A bar chord, right?

 

 

Yes.

[Knottyhed]

Well playing around with modes last night my ears were telling a few things i don't quite understand... perhaps there's a theoretical explanation - or maybe my ears need testing

I tried playing the scale E ionian over an E chord - it didn't actually sound very good, and yet the scale over a i, iv, v progression in the key of E (E, A, B) works great. I found E aolian (G major scale) worked much better over the single Emaj chord than the E ionian (E major scale).

I was finding in Poparads example that G lydian was working over G maj 7 better than G dorian was over Gm7 (there just seemed more places to go), but perhaps i just need to practice more using dorian.

[raggety]

Originally posted by Knottyhed Well playing around with modes last night my ears were telling a few things i don't quite understand... perhaps there's a theoretical explanation - or maybe my ears need testing I tried playing the scale E ionian over an E chord - it didn't actually sound very good, and yet the scale over a i, iv, v progression in the key of E (E, A, B) works great. I found E aolian (G major scale) worked much better over the single Emaj chord than the E ionian (E major scale). I was finding in Poparads example that G lydian was working over G maj 7 better than G dorian was over Gm7 (there just seemed more places to go), but perhaps i just need to practice more using dorian.

this chart shows what scale over what chord

[Knottyhed]

Originally posted by raggety this chart shows what scale over what chord

I that chart meant to represent the *only* mode choices you have?

I was finding E - aolian was working fine over an E major chord, according to that chart it'd only work with an Em7? Or am i missing something...

I've played using a minimal amount of theory and my ears for 12 years, but the more I seem to learn about music theory - the harder it seems to become to explain what i'm hearing and *why* things work

[Poparad]

Originally posted by Knottyhed I tried playing the scale E ionian over an E chord - it didn't actually sound very good, and yet the scale over a i, iv, v progression in the key of E (E, A, B) works great. I found E aolian (G major scale) worked much better over the single Emaj chord than the E ionian (E major scale).

 

 

 

If the E major scale over and E major scale sounded bad to you, it was probably because you were landing on some odd notes. When playing over a simple E major chord, the 4th and 7th degrees of the scale sound pretty sour to land on, but work ok as passing notes. The big problem most people have with scales is that they play all of the notes with no importance placed on any one note, except maybe the root. It's important to know which notes of the scale are the root, 3rd, and 5th of E major, and which notes are non chord tones, so that when playing lines, you can end your lines on chord tones, and not some potentially dissonant non chord tones.

 

E aeolian has plenty more dissonant notes against E major though, so I'm curious as to why this sounded better to you. The G, C, and A notes from the scale don't sound all that hot to land on (although G works for a bluesy sound), and in the right context a D natural will just sound wrong (try playing a progression of E, G#m, A, B.... D just doesn't sound right).

[raggety]

Originally posted by Knottyhed I that chart meant to represent the *only* mode choices you have? I was finding E - aolian was working fine over an E major chord, according to that chart it'd only work with an Em7? Or am i missing something... I've played using a minimal amount of theory and my ears for 12 years, but the more I seem to learn about music theory - the harder it seems to become to explain what i'm hearing and *why* things work

yes it is meant to represent that.

E-Aeolian would be from the G-Major scale. E-Aeolian would probably not be what you are playing over E-Major, it would more likely be E-Ionian that you were playing that sounded ok.


http://chrisjuergensen.com.hosting.domaindirect.com/modes_1.htm explains it more concisely than i can