Scales again..

[TornadoShaunUK]

Ok I have a couple of brief questions about learning scales..

 

1.) Major Scale - how is best to learn this? What I have done before is picked say the A Major scale and spent time learning that all over the fretboard.. although I found that I forgot it quite easily, is it best to pick one scale though like that and then just move it up and down frets to get another key of the major scale?

 

2.) 'Breaking out of the box' is the term fr what I really want to do, when I learn a scale I can learna lot of nice licks but it's p[retty much stuck all within the one 'box' which is why I want to learn a particular scale all over the neck rather than just in one place, I want to be able to learn these different patterns within a scale and see how they link up. [does anyone know where I can find diagrams of complete 22 or 24 fret fingerboard diagrams? and is it worth learning this)

 

I think thats about it really...

 

any advice greatly appreciated

[raggety]

1) i always practise the major scale in G then move upwards in shapes and keys.

 

2) if you know the five major scale shapes, you can play them in a horizontal form going up & down the neck rather than an up and down vertical scale shape form.

 

by this i mean play (just on the E bass string as an example)

 

2-3-5--5-7-8--7-8-10-- etc......

 

so you are playing the usual scale shapes but in a different way

[TornadoShaunUK]

with that second bit are you just referring to playing the scale on one string using the corresponding scale formula? w-h-w-w-h and all that?

 

Basically I want to learn complexed soloing so that I can improvise well and write my own solos well. What I was going to do was learn all the 5 'box shapes' in a scale and then look at how they all link up so I can transfer from one to the other and know I'll be soloing in the same key.. I wasn't sure if this was the best way to go about it or not though.. =/

[raggety]

Originally posted by TornadoShaunUK with that second bit are you just referring to playing the scale on one string using the corresponding scale formula? w-h-w-w-h and all that? Basically I want to learn complexed soloing so that I can improvise well and write my own solos well. What I was going to do was learn all the 5 'box shapes' in a scale and then look at how they all link up so I can transfer from one to the other and know I'll be soloing in the same key.. I wasn't sure if this was the best way to go about it or not though.. =/

 

 

to be honest i never bothered learning the WHWWH steps and stuff like that..... i just learnt the scale shapes and how they sounded, the theory behind it i didn't deem too important.

 

yeh i was linking them up horizontally, what i mean is.. once you have learned the shapes in the up and down normal way.

 

try to play the WHOLE 5 shapes scale along one string then play the next part of the 5 shape scale on the next lower string and so on. its good and tricky for your brain and fingers

 

so that way you are learning the 5 shapes up and down like normal BUT you are also learning how they link up horizontally as well which is most useful in itself !

 

whether its the best way or not i couldn't say? its worked for me so far to do it that way, but my ways of doing things are not the same as everyone elses.

 

try it. see if ya like it ?

 

here are the scale shapes if you don't know them

http://chrisjuergensen.com.hosting.domaindirect.com/modes_1.htm

 

 

if you start with pattern 4 at the second fret, that will put you in the key of G--- then go play pattern 5, then 1, then 2 then 3 then 4 again and it repeats like that until you run out of guitar

[red|dragon]

Well if you forget the scale easily, your obviously not ready to break out of the box.

 

Learn the rules first, then break them.

 

Right now without thinking much at all, can you name the notes in the A major scale?

 

You should be able to play A major 5 different places on the neck without even thinking about it. Close your eyes. You should see the scale in your head. You don't need to look at the fretboard.

[TornadoShaunUK]

I think thats a bit advanced for me! I can't name them off the top of my head but it's easy to name them when you apply the formula for the major scale..

 

A B C# D E F# G#

 

as for the chords.. I know where all the A5 power chords are all over the fretboard.. basically I studied octave notes a bit and that comes in handy for that.

 

As for A Major chord, I only ever use the standard one.. although it's easy enough to just make an A Major chord.. build one aslong as it has the E, A and C# notes that will be A Major right?

 

it is more the scales I have trouble remembering etc..

 

when I improvise I tend to stick to a blues scale pattern (the first one I learned) and just shift it around the neck.. it's the one I got used to using basically..

[red|dragon]

How can you break out of the box if you don't know what the box is yet?

 

Keep on practicing. The scales will form the chords. You will see them evidentually. But please, know the basics EXTREMELY WELL BEFORE MOVING ON. The basics are sooooo important. They will come back and slap you in the back of the head one day.

 

To get out of the power chord thing...

 

focus more on the higher 3 strings. see how many A chords you can make (any group of A C# E) ... like this:

 

(btw most people start with C or G instead of A)

 

--0---5---9---12-------------

--2---5--10---14-------------

--2---6---9----14-------------

---------------------------------

---------------------------------

---------------------------------

 

Well there's 4 A chords only on the top 3 strings! Try the next 3 (2.3.4) and then the next 3 (3.4.5) and then the last 3 strings (4.5.6)

 

Scales and chords overlap. The notes in the chords are in the SCALE!

 

Practice and you will see it.

Practice and you will see it.

Practice and you will see it.

[Paragraph51]

There are four popular keys that are good to start with, G major and it's enharmonic sidekick it's relative minor the key a E minor, and ditto with C major/Aminor, which as with the former key and it's relative minor do, use the same notes, but have a different tonal center within the sequence of notes. The diatonic Cmaj/Amin key is very convenient for those with a piano or keyboard, because the notes it contains are those of the white keys of the piano. There are no flats or sharps in the key signature, in fact look at the standard musical staffs, if you turn it vertically,(rotate it can be seen as the piano keys left and right and inclusive of middle C, with the B, the C and the D, between the bass and treble staffs,(imagine another line drawn down the middle between the two staffs that passes through middle C, making B and D falling within the spaces on either side of it), the treble staff being the notes above middle C, (the first line is E), and the bass cleff being the notes below middle C,(the first line is A).

So, once you realize that, you can read music for piano.

[raggety]

Some chord shapes which outline scale shapes.

 

 

F shape.

....F -Gm- Am- Bb-C-Dm- Edim-F

E--x-----------------------------

B--1--3--5--6--8--10--13---

G--2--3--5--7--9--10--14---

D--3--5--7--8--10-12--15---

A--x----------------------------

E--x---------------------------

 

Bb shape. .

.....Bb-Cm-Dm-Eb-F-Gm-Adim-Bb

E--1--3--5--6--8--10--11--13--

B--3--4--6--8--10-11--13--15--

G--3--5--7--8--10-12--14--15--

D--x----------------------------------

A--x----------------------------------

E--x----------------------------------

 

A shape.

.....A-Bm-C#m-D-E-F#m-Gdim-A

E--x------------------------------------

B--2--3--5--7--9--10--12--14-----

G--2--4--6--7--9--11--13--14-----

D--2--4--6--7--9--11--12--14-----

A--x------------------------------------

E--x-----------------------------------

 

D shape.

.....D-Em-F#m-G-A-Bm-Cdim-D

E--2--3--5--7--9--10--12--14--

B--3--5--7--8--10-12--14--15--

G--2--4--6--7--9--11--12--14--

D--x----------------------------------

A--x---------------------------------

E--x---------------------------------

 

 

You can also play these in other keys. For EG. the 'A' shape chord/scale started on the 4th fret converts that chord/scale into the key of 'B'

 

You might find these quite a useful little device

[Virgman]

It takes awhile (many months) to really know it.

 

Here's an idea.

 

Think of the C-major scale C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C

 

Learn the major scale shapes at each root note on both the 6th and 5th strings. You have 5 shapes. (The shapes on the 6th and 5th are the same except the B string shifts over one fret.)

 

Play each shape about 200 times until you memorize it.

 

Once you have memorized all 5 shapes, put on a backing track and jam over it in the major scale.

 

The chords of C-major scale are C-Dm-Em-F-G-Am-Bdim-C

 

Follow the chords tones by ear as you jam. It's fun! Notice where the major scale shapes overlay the pentatonic shapes throughout the fretboard. Wow!

 

Here's some free tracks.

 

http://www.torvund.net/guitar/Backing/MajorProgressions.asp

 

Try the Minor progressions too.

 

http://www.torvund.net/guitar/Backing/BluesProgressions.asp

 

If the key changes you still use the same shapes.

 

As a next step learn the 7th chord arpeggios (4 notes) for the C-major chords.

 

If you keep practicing and jamming you will start understanding it.

 

This free program shows you the fretboard with many scales and chords. Get it!

 

http://www.fusionsite.co.uk/software/fretnav.htm

[TornadoShaunUK]

Originally posted by red|dragon How can you break out of the box if you don't know what the box is yet? Keep on practicing. The scales will form the chords. You will see them evidentually. But please, know the basics EXTREMELY WELL BEFORE MOVING ON. The basics are sooooo important. They will come back and slap you in the back of the head one day. To get out of the power chord thing... focus more on the higher 3 strings. see how many A chords you can make (any group of A C# E) ... like this: (btw most people start with C or G instead of A) --0---5---9---12------------- --2---5--10---14------------- --2---6---9----14------------- --------------------------------- --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Well there's 4 A chords only on the top 3 strings! Try the next 3 (2.3.4) and then the next 3 (3.4.5) and then the last 3 strings (4.5.6) Scales and chords overlap. The notes in the chords are in the SCALE! Practice and you will see it. Practice and you will see it. Practice and you will see it.

 

Ok man I will write out the notes for all the major chords and begin memorising them.. obviously the major chords use the root/major 3rd and 5th of the corresponding major scale but one thing gets me a little confused..

 

when I look at F#Major scale and Gb Major Scale I think 'surely these are the same scale..'

 

F#Major - F#,G#, A#, B, C#, D#, E#, F#

Gb Major - Gb, Ab, Bb, Cb, Db, Eb, F, Gb

 

when you look at them they are pretty much the same scale so why the need to name them twice under different names? If I make chords out of these its going to be F#/A#/C# and Gb/Bb/Cb respectively which again is just going to be the same chord??

[jazzbo]

Originally posted by TornadoShaunUK Ok man I will write out the notes for all the major chords and begin memorising them.. obviously the major chords use the root/major 3rd and 5th of the corresponding major scale but one thing gets me a little confused.. when I look at F#Major scale and Gb Major Scale I think 'surely these are the same scale..' F#Major - F#,G#, A#, B, C#, D#, E#, F# Gb Major - Gb, Ab, Bb, Cb, Db, Eb, F, Gb when you look at them they are pretty much the same scale so why the need to name them twice under different names? If I make chords out of these its going to be F#/A#/C# and Gb/Bb/Cb respectively which again is just going to be the same chord??

 

Do you know the circle of fifths? It's the easiest way to determine the number of sharps or flats in a given key.

 

Starting from C, no sharps or flats, if you go up in fifths you get G,D,A,E,B,F#,C# seven keys, key of G has one sharp, key of D has 2 sharps, key of A has three sharps, etc.

 

Starting from C, no sharps or flats, if you go down in fifths you get F,Bb,Eb,Ab,Db,Gb seven keys, key of F has one flat, key of Bb has 2 flats, key of Eb has three flats, etc.

 

the reason it is a circle is because you can connect the two directions at the bottom where F# and C# overlap Gb and Db

 

so those two keys can be written either way F# has six sharps but Gb has 6 flats so it's up to the composer

 

by the way, the first sharped note is F# in the key of G - you find the next one in D by going up a fifth from F# to get C#, so F# and C# in key of D, F# C# G# in key of A, etc.

 

Bb is the first flatted note in the key of F, then you go down in fifths to find the rest of the flats, Bb and Eb in the key of Bb, Bb Eb Ab in key of Eb, etc.