Do you guys feel that DJ's are musicians?

[David Jatt]

Originally posted by auditorium Turntablists like DJ Shadow, DJ Logic, Kid Koala DJ Spooky, Cut Chemist, Invisible Skratch Pickles, etc, are musicians at least on par with, if not more inventive, than most music I hear these days. The guys who spin dance singles for vacant-headed x'd up fools, less so. I suspect this thread should come with a required listening list: DJ Shadow's "...endtroducing" Medeski, Martin, Wood w/DJ Logic, "Combustication" DJ Spooky's "Rhythm Warfare" Kid Koala's "Carpel Tunnel Syndrome" Mix Master Mike on the Beastie Boys' "Hello Nasty" etc, etc, ad nauseum.

 

 

That's scarily close to what I was going to post, ...Endtroducing is my favourite album I think. A mention for Amon Tobin too, he blows my tiny little mind.

[auditorium]

Originally posted by David Jatt That's scarily close to what I was going to post, ...Endtroducing is my favourite album I think. A mention for Amon Tobin too, he blows my tiny little mind.

 

 

...endtroducing changed my life, for sure. props to mr. tobin as well, ninja tune keeps lining 'em up, no?

[David Jatt]

My favourite label for sure although bizarrely I've never really taken to Coldcut or DJ Food.

[jcn37203]

Hey, why don't we take this to HC's oldest thread...

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7927

Maybe breathe a little life back in to that forum.

[Sir H C]

Check out the movie Scratch if you don't think some of these guys are musicians.

First, what do you remember about the Herbie Hancock song Rocket? The scratching.

Check out DJ Q-Bert for amazing stuff. He creates his own records that he then "plays" at his shows, scratching them to create songs.

Some of the old school DJs could take a drum beat from a record and in real time reorder the sounds to a new drum beat. To see this is to be in awe of their musicianship (what is different between this and a drummer using electronic/sampled drums like Butch Vig?).

Again, see what these guys and gals can do.

As to the club dj, they are entertainers. It is a much different talent to keep a room of 1000+ people dancing and enjoying themselves. It isn't until you see a dj flop that you realize how hard, keeping the flow, the beat, and the rest. In college I had a buddy who did djing for weddings and dances. He was able to critique bad djs and you could then see what he was talking about and what he would do differently (and he did things differently and was amazing for what he did). He wasn't a musician, but he was a great entertainer.

[writerjohn]

This is my FIRST POST to an HC Forum! Hello to all!

Since I am a technical writer by trade, I checked the dictionary. Here is the definition of "musician:"

One who composes, conducts, or performs music, especially instrumental music.

Under that broad classification, I would have to say that a DJ MIGHT be a musician.

[Scott Glover]

Good DJ's know about BPM's or beats per minute and they know how to match song tempos together to keep people on the dance floor and they must know when to speed up the beat or slow it down or else they will be fired and working at K-Mart

If the DJ is a musician, then the DJ is a musician, but it doesn't take any real music traning to be a DJ

[jcn37203]

BTW - I once went to one of those artsy snobby avant garde musical showcase, and one of the musicians there had a piece of driftwood, to which he had tied a dozen or so strings from one branch or knob or whatever to another, sometimes criss-crossing. He had rigged some sort of a mic inside of it. Then he took liitle hammers or sticks or whatever and rubbed and tapped the strings, running it all through an fx processor.

If that guy is a musician, then DJs are musicians.

Also, I'd say if percussion is musicianship, then I don't see why DJing isn't. You can be an awesome dummer, and not know {censored} about notes, keys, chords, arpeggios, scales, modes, etc.

Of coursse, I'm not talking about the kind of DJ you hire for your wedding reception.

It's pretty amazing to me how popular a really *bad* DJ can become. There's a guy on a local FM hip hop station, and he gets the prime slot, 5:00, drive home time. And he's just *TERRIBLE*. He'll be playing a song, and then just throw in some delay, which completely screws up the beat. It would be ok if he matched the repeats with the tempo or something, but he doesn't. He just kicks it in and lets it degrade into what is essentially chaos, then he shouts "Aww yeah, DJ whachamajiggit, comin' atcha boweeee" then starts a new song. It's really irritating. I am 100% positive I could do as good a job as he does, and I haven't even used a turntable in like 12 years.

He has a few other tricks he throws in, but they all {censored} up the beat. Which, to me, I mean, a DJ can do anything *except* {censored} up the beat. Preserve the beat at all costs. Thats the whole point.

[sdre]

i respect dalek alot for his work.

pretty damn amazing stuff going on.

[Brian Marshall]

Originally posted by Scott Glover Good DJ's know about BPM's or beats per minute and they know how to match song tempos together to keep people on the dance floor and they must know when to speed up the beat or slow it down or else they will be fired and working at K-Mart If the DJ is a musician, then the DJ is a musician, but it doesn't take any real music traning to be a DJ

does it take any training to play guitar.... or drums for that matter.

[Wanker]

without painting with a broad brush. 90% no. 10% yes.

[elctmist]

I resent this thread.

DJ

[TigerInATrance]

Most drummers are not musicians. They are percussionists. There is a HUGE difference. As a musician, you have to consider 3 main things... Melody, Harmony, and tempo. Then you throw in things like dynamics, feel, and tone. You are a musician when you understand music in those terms. I would say 98% of DJs are not musicians. I would say that 95% of drummers are not musicians. But they both fall into the Percussionist realm.

As for sequenced stuff... those guys are composing music it doesn't matter what the mode of performing the music is... unless it has no melody AND harmony.

[extremelybored]

Originally posted by TigerInATrance Most drummers are not musicians. They are percussionists. There is a HUGE difference. As a musician, you have to consider 3 main things... Melody, Harmony, and tempo. Then you throw in things like dynamics, feel, and tone. You are a musician when you understand music in those terms. I would say 98% of DJs are not musicians. I would say that 95% of drummers are not musicians. But they both fall into the Percussionist realm. As for sequenced stuff... those guys are composing music it doesn't matter what the mode of performing the music is... unless it has no melody AND harmony.

So as a percussionist (as well as a guitarist/violaist) I don't have to consider Melody, Harmony, Tempo, Dynamics, Feel or tone? My conductor would love it if I took your advice....
I guess you've never played percussion....

Edit: Amon Tobin is indeed amazing - I saw him live in London playing his Splinter Cell sountrack in 5.1:eek: ! Get the DVD-audio if you can play it and then tell me DJs can't be musicians;) .

[dawz1978]

It is funny to see guitarists saying it does not take musical training to be a DJ... I've always thought the same about guitar

We're so shelted in our own little worlds... "Popular music" has really done a good job of hiding the fact that some of the least complex instruments in the world are used to make it.... There are countless instruments, outside of guitar/bass/drums/keys, which are far more complex and those players could easily have the discussion "Do you feel that Guitarists are real musicians"

[jcn37203]

I guess this is why some guys make the distinction between "DJ" and "Turntablist".

[jcn37203]

Originally posted by TigerInATrance Most drummers are not musicians. They are percussionists. There is a HUGE difference. As a musician, you have to consider 3 main things... Melody, Harmony, and tempo. Then you throw in things like dynamics, feel, and tone. You are a musician when you understand music in those terms. I would say 98% of DJs are not musicians. I would say that 95% of drummers are not musicians. But they both fall into the Percussionist realm. As for sequenced stuff... those guys are composing music it doesn't matter what the mode of performing the music is... unless it has no melody AND harmony.

 

 

That would mean a good 95% of guitarists are also not musicians.

 

Melody, harmony, tempo are the three things the songwriter would be most concerned with. A musician would just be playing the parts for their instrument.

 

I mean, I don't think we'd argue that members of a symphony or a marching band weren't musicians. But I doubt the second trombone player is that interested in melody or harmony. Probably tempo, yes. But mostly he's just working on playing the right notes.

 

I'd say dynamics, inflection, tempo and feel are the things the musicians are most concerned with, outside of just note/chord playing.

[80k]

Originally posted by dawz1978 It is funny to see guitarists saying it does not take musical training to be a DJ... I've always thought the same about guitar We're so shelted in our own little worlds... "Popular music" has really done a good job of hiding the fact that some of the least complex instruments in the world are used to make it.... There are countless instruments, outside of guitar/bass/drums/keys, which are far more complex and those players could easily have the discussion "Do you feel that Guitarists are real musicians"

 

 

yea i was going to say something similar. asking whether DJ's are musicians is about as useful as asking whether guitarists are musicians. Another medium, another form of expression, some more competent than others. Is there a fine line that makes someone a musician and someone else not? and who are we to determine that?

[80k]

Originally posted by TigerInATrance Most drummers are not musicians. They are percussionists. There is a HUGE difference. As a musician, you have to consider 3 main things... Melody, Harmony, and tempo. Then you throw in things like dynamics, feel, and tone. You are a musician when you understand music in those terms. I would say 98% of DJs are not musicians. I would say that 95% of drummers are not musicians. But they both fall into the Percussionist realm. As for sequenced stuff... those guys are composing music it doesn't matter what the mode of performing the music is... unless it has no melody AND harmony.

 

 

different drums bring out different frequencies, some higher than others. it is extremely expressive in dynamics and pitch, and a good drummer obviously recognizes the differences in timbre and frequency of what is in front of him. obviously a timpani, where the drums are tuned to a specific pitch is a more extreme example.

 

percussionists/drummers are absolutely musicians just as much as guitarists.

 

and i don't intend to say that drummers are musicians BECAUSE of their recognition of pitch. i would still say they are musicians regardless of pitch.

[sonaboy]

Originally posted by gr8fuldodd I know it takes skill I know I can't do it then again I never tried but if I walked into some club, I guess I couldn't do it but I can't swallow DJ's being seen as musical artists

 

 

DJ is a pretty wide classification.

 

The man who spins records at your friend's wedding reception - NO

 

The guy who plays tracks in a nightclub and subtly fades pre-recorded music in and out in time - NO

 

Guys like DJ Q-bert, DJ Krush, Keltech, or Terminator X - who researches classic R&B, pop, hip hop and rock to find elements to build sound collages, and manually manipulate said elements into unique compositions, while also being able to improvise over them - HELL YES.

 

manipulation of pre-recorded or digitally sampled sounds shouldn't be qualifications for excusing an artist with technical mastery of this from being a musician.

you can have your opinions, but the turntable became an instrument for expression in the early 80s - manipulating one to make something new out of something old takes the same exacting skill as it does to play chords on a guitar, play keys, or drums.

 

check out people really pushing the science forward like DJ Spooky, Squarepusher, Amon Tobin or Roni Size - they all take DJing as an art form to the next level, and should be recognized as musicians for this.

[auditorium]

Originally posted by jcn37203 Which, to me, I mean, a DJ can do anything *except* {censored} up the beat. Preserve the beat at all costs. Thats the whole point.

 

 

The beat is dead!

 

 

 

Long live the beat!

[Flat Fifth Fury]

This is a question that as puzzled me for years. I've ended up talking to a number of DJ's to get their side of the story and have come to this set of concepts:

1) Music written by composers and performed by instrumentalists.

To that end:

2) Some composers are instrumentalists and some instrumentalists are composers. This doesn't mean that any of them are any good, it just describes what they musically do.

3) Anything that can make sound can be considered an instrument. Tom Waits goes to junkyards with a hammer and a stick to find things that sound cool when he beats on them. He then takes them to the studio to put on his records for the interesting sounds that they make. This does not make him a "Hammer-er" or a "Bumper-ist" but a very open minded musician and composer.

4) Any musical application of anything requires some amount of learned physical and mental skills. Tempo matching and cross fading are the most basic of DJ skills just as strumming/plucking and fretting single notes are to a guitarist. Without those skills, nothing else is really accomplished.

5) Just because you can play "Louie-Louie" on the guitar doesn't make you a musician/guitarist just as a child who has learned to play a squeeky "Twinkle-Twinkle" on their violin makes them a musician/violinist. The term "Musician" implies "Musicianship" and thus a physical facility over the instrument as well as a certain amount of knowlege about music. This does not mean that you must have a degree in music theory but atleast have the basics. You can be a good player without being a musician.

Therefor:

6) There are people who use turntables in a variety of ways just as there are people who use guitars in a variety of ways. Some are pure players/performers who know very little about music but make sounds that people enjoy. Some are composers who arrange sounds into a new composition. Some are masterful instrumentalists with a strong grasp of musical knowledge. Some are composers and musicians.

So:

7) There are tons of guitarists and DJ's who are players - recreating other peoples music without really adding anything. There are loads of guitarists and some DJ's who create their own compositions. There are quite a few guitarists but very few DJ's who are excellent instrumentalists with a musical knowledge that qualifies them as musicians.

Bottom line:

8) Using a turntable as an instrument is just as legitimate as using anything else. It's what you do with it that says something about your level of musicianship.

[Filterbank]

In the case of Squarepusher (aka Tom Jenkinson), he's a mind blowing bassist. I recommend Feed Me Weird Things

Originally posted by sonaboy check out people really pushing the science forward like DJ Spooky, Squarepusher, Amon Tobin or Roni Size - they all take DJing as an art form to the next level, and should be recognized as musicians for this.

 

[TigerInATrance]

I retract my remarks as I hadn't thought them out to any great extent...

That said, most DJs are still not musicians...

And drummers are mostly good for carrying the beer...

[auditorium]

Originally posted by TigerInATrance I retract my remarks as I hadn't thought them out to any great extent... That said, most DJs are still not musicians... And drummers are mostly good for carrying the beer...

If Berklee offers non-kit percussion as a principle instrument, why not turntables? DJ Logic came in and jammed with some jazzers a year or two ago. We've got a teacher who developed a notation system for it, written a book about it, and I really want to take that class, but it's got a waiting list like you wouldn't believe.

I'd kill for a pair of decks and vinyl of Billy Martin just doing beats. Of course, then every time I went home, I'd spend all day at Princeton Record Exchange...which isn't a bad thing...