Members Analog Kid Posted July 16, 2006 Members Share Posted July 16, 2006 No huge secret that electronic music machines seem a little biased towards a straight 4/4, but tell me your adventures in other time signatures or your use of shuffle, swing or rubato. Have you use for step sequences in lengths beside 16 and 32? Tunings? Do you use alternate scales? Hell, even if you set your delays to triplets, go ahead and tell us about it! I'd like to hear about all the ways, tips, tricks, opinions, thoughts, longings and anything i might not have thought of dealing with ways to make electronic instruments break from the mold. And if you'd just LIKE to be able to work in some way you arent currently, pipe up, there's nothing to lose. Now, on the other hand, if you want to say that a skilled musician should only need a steady tempo, straight 4/4 meter to make great music and odd time signatures are just for those who dont understand the POWER of 4/4 and you should really exhaust the possibilities before even thinking about needing additional time signatures (unless maybe you are a pro, then 3/4 is ok too) well........ OK, lets hear from you too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Analog Kid Posted July 19, 2006 Author Members Share Posted July 19, 2006 bump cause you guys always say you want to talk about something besides gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kooki_sf Posted July 19, 2006 Members Share Posted July 19, 2006 5/4 is fun. any thing beyond 9 is just silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jazzwee Posted July 19, 2006 Members Share Posted July 19, 2006 I happen to like the overlaying of multiple meters in one tune like the way Brad Mehldau mixes meters in left hand and the right hand. He also has specific tunes (like Riverman) which is in 5/4. He is playing 5/4 in this tune but with a staggered start for each hand. Amazing effect and extremely difficult for me to do. This got me interested in alternate meters and is a big focus of mine. To help me understand this more, I got this CD set from Homespuntapes called Dr. B's Rhythmic training by Karl Berger. He actually has a lot of sample electronica type of music in different meters. He's got them in all combinations. 9beat patterns, 12 beat patterns, 7 beat patterns, on and on. What I learned from this is that regardless of the complexity of the beat, it is nothing more than a split of a beat in combinations of twos and threes. So applied to a even a simple 4/4. You could play this as double time (8/4), but split the beat not as 2-2-2-2 but as 3-3-2 or 2-3-3 and the tune sounds completely different. Amazing how even just changing accents can change music. Anyway, hearing Karl Berger play this music in various meters was great for getting ideas. Highly recommended for composers who want to experiment a little bit with unusual meters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jazzwee Posted July 19, 2006 Members Share Posted July 19, 2006 Originally posted by kooki_sf 5/4 is fun.any thing beyond 9 is just silly. This is an example of a complete misunderstanding of meters IMHO. You may be an expert in meters and I apologize in advance if that is the case. Otherwise, this could benefit others that are not too well versed in stuff other than 4/4. You could have played 9/4 as 3-3-3. Or three triplets to a bar. Waltz. Nothing complicated. Anything past this could be considered like a pause in the music. Line in 3-3-3-2. The last would give it a different accent. Like playing a waltz then stopping suddenly for two beats. After hearing these types of combinations as nothing more than 2's and 3's, it seems to me that no meter actually sounds silly. And it is not really that complicated. Even 5/4 might scare a beginner but is read as 3-2 or 2-3 when counting (e.g. 1 2 3 1 2 ) The larger the meter and there is an off number at the end (like 2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-3 or 3-3-3-3-3-3-3-3-2, to me it just suggests the pause or accent is delayed (like at the end of a bridge). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Analog Kid Posted July 19, 2006 Author Members Share Posted July 19, 2006 cool posts Jazzwee.The thought of someone playing a keyboard using different meters for each hand blows my mind a little.... Ok, i admit it was a little blown previously anyways, but it's still a cool concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jazzwee Posted July 19, 2006 Members Share Posted July 19, 2006 Originally posted by Analog Kid cool posts Jazzwee. The thought of someone playing a keyboard using different meters for each hand blows my mind a little.... Ok, i admit it was a little blown previously anyways, but it's still a cool concept. Glad you liked it Analog Kid. Although one would think of the amazing technical prowess to do different meters in each hand, this wouldn't be a big deal on sequencers. It's a more complicated concept to do complex meters in live and especially acoustic piano playing. But in electronic music with a little looping, this becomes a minor affair. It's just another creative variation. Note that as I listened to non-4/4 electronica music, it certainly didn't sound weird in any way (take this with a grain of salt however if you're not into jazz ) Just a side comment, someone might say you can't dance to non 4/4 music. Apparently in other countries (I can't remember but the example given in the CD may have been Turkey), they apparently mostly dance to music that is not 4/4 or 3/4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rasp Posted July 19, 2006 Members Share Posted July 19, 2006 Originally posted by HomeInMyShoes Music doesn't necessarily need a time signature, end of quote, end of discusion... um, not really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Analog Kid Posted July 19, 2006 Author Members Share Posted July 19, 2006 certainly step sequencers that let you modulate (or manually click) the start and end step are great, at least in theory. Reversing the sequence...mn, kind of gimmicky but cool.Of course, in something like the Clavia G2 or even moreso Algo Arts SoftStep, the possibilites are pretty intense.I guess as long as your drums are kicking a rhythm whenever you do stupid stuff like this it's by definition polyrhythms, but I suppose without careful intent its mainly bunk discord.Guess that's why im interested in people's methods so i can glean some insight into some electronic realms i've not explored.i've never explored alternate tunings for scales either, but I have been dabling in rubato quite a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Morandar Posted July 19, 2006 Members Share Posted July 19, 2006 While when freely improvising I don't care about time signature (but I do a lot of strange tempos and some polyrhymic stuff), when composing I like to experiment: some of my tunes are in 2116, or with left hand in 54 and right hand in 98, and so on. I also did an hip hop beat in 1716 which kicks asses - truly I think that strange time signatures open mind, and that's far more difficult writing a groovy line - but once you do, that's great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Analog Kid Posted July 19, 2006 Author Members Share Posted July 19, 2006 much easier to do it just playing though, than to adapt the machines to a facile use of meter. Or maybe I'm just not involved enough yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jazzwee Posted July 19, 2006 Members Share Posted July 19, 2006 Originally posted by rasp end of quote, end of discusion... um, not really. Abstract playing may not need a time signature. But time signatures signal a groove. The groove is the pulse and excitement of a tune. Grooveless music is boring. It doesn't draw you in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TheFoosa Posted July 19, 2006 Members Share Posted July 19, 2006 Originally posted by kooki_sf 5/4 is fun. any thing beyond 9 is just silly. Not really, you just need to break it into smaller chunks. There's a Planet X song, I think it's Interlude in Milan (I am too lazy to check), which has a groove in 13/16. It seems obnoxious when looking at that number, and it sounds weird if you've never heard anything before (ie: radio sheep). But it's really not that weird of a groove. You can break it down into a group of 8 and 5...which at the 16th note level still seems odd, but the tune is not that quick anyways. I normally hear something like that as [(4+4)+(3+2)] and then just repeat as each bar comes along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Awake77 Posted July 19, 2006 Members Share Posted July 19, 2006 When i write guitar driven music, its mostly metal orientated stuff and I tend to use a lot of alternate time sigs. Alternating measures of 6/8 and 7/8 was always one of my favorites (13/8 depending on how you want to look at it) I wrote a jungle-style tune in 15/16 once that was pretty wierd. Ive always been a big fan of bands like Rush, Mudvayne, Meshuggah, Dream Theater, etc so odd time sigs always cam natural because they were so prevalent in that style of music. What took me forever to learn though, and something Im finally getting good at, is how to make a *good*, interesting, and evolving 4/4 based groove. Im into a lot of 'deep progressive' music at the moment, and while the initial groove is usually a straight 4 on the floor beat, there's so much going on and layered with it that different grooves are all intertwined within eachother. When you listen the 4/4 is of course the centeripiece, but depending where you let your mind/ears focus all kinds of interesting polyrhythms bubble to the surface... Right now Im experimenting with ways to achieve this...Guru seems to make it very intuitive. Experimenting with different pathes and effects can make something unexpected pop out too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Umbra Posted July 19, 2006 Members Share Posted July 19, 2006 There's a Planet X song, I think it's Interlude in Milan I don't remember that one, which LP is it on? I've done some blues in 5/4 which actually came out pretty decent and seemed to fit better than 4/4 did. I would be really really curious about people's techniques using swing with a sequencer, I can never seem to get it sounding decent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TheFoosa Posted July 19, 2006 Members Share Posted July 19, 2006 Originally posted by Umbra I don't remember that one, which LP is it on? Moonbabies CD. Originally posted by Umbra I would be really really curious about people's techniques using swing with a sequencer, I can never seem to get it sounding decent. You won't. Swing is more than the first and 3rd partials of a triplet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kooki_sf Posted July 19, 2006 Members Share Posted July 19, 2006 as a percussionist i still stand behind my argument that anything beyond 9 is silly. I have played in the higher numbers, i have studied crazy indian music where the meter slowly increases, and I still feel the same way. why? because anything beyond 9 (or 11 if its played well) tends to lack any sort of groove. and groove is the reason we have rythm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members setAI Posted July 19, 2006 Members Share Posted July 19, 2006 7/4 is great for raga-style rhythms- 12/5 is nice as well- almost as intuitive a grooove as 4/4- but only popular in north africa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SirGarrote Posted July 19, 2006 Members Share Posted July 19, 2006 Originally posted by setAI 12/5 is nice as well- I must be missing something... -G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stikygum Posted July 19, 2006 Members Share Posted July 19, 2006 12/5? What kind of note does the 5 stand for? To add to Home IMS's ? 4 posts up, when people are mixing time sigs (for example, a 6/8 and 7/8), is that to add extra impact kind of like a quick hook to lock people in with your music? Btw, what are are some other popular songs with non-4/4 sigs or alternating sigs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TheFoosa Posted July 19, 2006 Members Share Posted July 19, 2006 Originally posted by kooki_sf why? because anything beyond 9 (or 11 if its played well) tends to lack any sort of groove. and groove is the reason we have rythm. Listen to the track I mentioned, there is a good groove there. A bit abnormal but not at all unmusical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mintbeetle Posted July 19, 2006 Members Share Posted July 19, 2006 I like weird time signatures that sound so natural you don't notice they're weird. TRS-80OwlsRadioheadPink Floyd "Money" etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members setAI Posted July 19, 2006 Members Share Posted July 19, 2006 Originally posted by SirGarrote I must be missing something... -G 12/5 makes more sense when you sound it out fast: TAK-tik-TAK-tik-tik-tik-tik-TAK-tik-tik-tik-tik- you have heard it before- it's a very heartbeatish rhythm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TheFoosa Posted July 19, 2006 Members Share Posted July 19, 2006 What in the mother{censored}ing flying {censored} is a a 5th note? :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jazzwee Posted July 20, 2006 Members Share Posted July 20, 2006 Originally posted by HomeInMyShoes For sure, groove is very important, but I'll disagree that just because the time signature is missing that there isn't a pulse. It's maybe not the blinding beat you over the head with a stick boom-cha-boom-cha-boom-cha kind of thing, but it's there. Okay, I think it's time time to go back to topic. For the people mixing time signatures across parts, how are you rationalizing the composition (if that even makes sense)? Are you just saying I've got 5/4 versus 3/4 and there would be a general coming together or repetition at 15/4 sort of thing? This technique (mixing meters is typical in jazz improvisation, albeit quite advanced. This is not for the weak of heart. I've heard it done. I'm not able to do this myself except at a rudimentary level. Typically you set the rhythm on the left hand, so that sets the pulse. The improvised lines are overlayed on top of that. In the case of jazz pianist Brad Mehldau, he will do an Ostinato on the left hand or even the two thumbs of two hands, then the remaining fingers are creating a melody of a different meter. This is mind boggling stuff but can of course be grossly simplified with multiple tracks. In the particular tune that he does this on, it is a 5/4 ostinato pattern. Not only will the right hand be on a different meter, he is also able to stagger the whole melody so it starts on the offbeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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