Members FWAxeIbanez Posted August 8, 2006 Members Share Posted August 8, 2006 So I popped on Mezzanine and was floored by the bass tones... How do you go about getting such a woofy yet airy bass tone? It's like a kick drum with zero attack and (sometimes) a tonality, I dig it... I figured I'd ask in here because I highly doubt it came from an organic instrument or a sample of one, its so even and perfect and yet doesn't sound like its "squashed" with a compressor. Figured a pitch shifter would get me halfway there, but listening to songs like Teardrop, there really has to be more to it. Multiple sounds blended together? I'm lost here guys, takin shots in the dark, fill me in would you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members suitandtieguy Posted August 8, 2006 Members Share Posted August 8, 2006 massive attack's bass tones run the gamut from pure sine tones, to TB-303, to tuned 808 kick samples, to electric bass guitar. a common theme among them is that they are "good" and "appropriate". i would bet that none of the bass tones you hear in MA albums are layered. layering bass tones is the best way to move a bass tone away from "good" unless you're in the midrange and not really making bass at all. i guess what i'm saying is since there is such a variety of bass tones in MA albums, the only observation i would make about their bass tones is that they excel in a mixing/arrangement/programming skill called "bass management" in the recording community. "bass management" is a subset of what used to be called "the basic rules of orchestration" before rock music. "bass management" is quite easy to boil down. a principle rule of classical orchestration (and the vertical nature of sound itself) is that there can be more notes and movement in the upper end of the spectrum than the lower. this is a result of the exponential nature of octaves as they relate to the harmonic series. the lower you go, the simpler things must be. this is true of note movement as well as timbre. that kick ass moog alto line with 9 oscillators becomes a mess when you bring it into the bass range, unless it's a pedal point with the filter closed to around the 5th-8th harmonic. the last track of Klaus Schulze's X is a perfect example of how you can have 9 901 oscillators running in the bass range without pissing off the mid and treble voices. the lower you go, to preserve clarity of note movement, the less number of oscillators or tones you must use. phase cancellation is most irritating and most heard in the low end. it is also the most destructive: the right inappropriate combination of bass tones can have the ability to destroy a loudspeaker. massive attack understand not to put the kick drum and the bass sound in the same range. this is a fundamental aspect of pop mixing. NEVER try to crowd a dub bass sound with an 808 kick: it will sound like a big steaming turd. of course if the goal of your music is to make sure no one wants to listen to it, feel free to put 24" bass drums in the same tracks as sine wave bass and unfiltered wind noise: i'll shut it off. my speakers don't like it when something resembling white noise is going on below 150 hz. heed and internalise this rant and your bass will have the capacity to be as awesome as the masters of trip hop, Massive Attack. btw, do you have any other MA albums than Mezzanine? Protection and Bluelines are amazing. one of my favourite anecdotes is the time i was hauling James, Emily, and her friend Eron (from Springfield) to the Satterfeld's annual party in Brimfield. i put on the title track to Protection, "Protection", on the stg/ipod because Eron said he liked "trip-hop". he blurted from the back (in the middle of a rant about how as a vegan he couldn't stand to be in the same room as a Hardee's "thickburger") "what the {censored} is this {censored}?". i said "uh it's Massive {censored}ing Attack." "this doesn't sound like any Massive Attack _i've_ heard! this is nothing like "Teardrop"!!!" I considered telling him to walk back to Springfield, but i thought i was going to get some tail that night. silly me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members eminor9 Posted August 8, 2006 Members Share Posted August 8, 2006 +1 on the Protection album and listen to 'Better things' - pure sine bass with Tracey Thorne's sour voice. Almost as good as Portishead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members suitandtieguy Posted August 8, 2006 Members Share Posted August 8, 2006 Originally posted by eminor9 +1 on the Protection album and listen to 'Better things' - pure sine bass with Tracey Thorne's sour voice. Almost as good as Portishead. two things: a) not to be a bastard, but that's an heavily filtered wood bass sample. pretty much the same thing as sine wave bass, but i pick nits when i'm deeeerunk. i hope that i don't come off as negative .. i like being positive and helpful. b) everything but the girl is my fav pop music of all time, next to the pet shop boys. "Better Things" is a perfect example of the whole depressing-as-shit brit soul thing EBTG specialised in while they were still active. c) despite my picking of nits, thanks for recognising Protection. have you heard No Protection? the Mad Professor dubs the shit out of "Better Things". you like the Head of Portis ... have you seen the Alchemists of Sound documentary about the BBC Radiophonic Workshop? Adrian Utley is all over it for some reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members eminor9 Posted August 8, 2006 Members Share Posted August 8, 2006 Originally posted by suitandtieguy two things:a) not to be a bastard, but that's an heavily filtered wood bass sample. pretty much the same thing as sine wave bass, but i pick nits when i'm deeeerunk. i hope that i don't come off as negative .. i like being positive and helpful.b) everything but the girl is my fav pop music of all time, next to the pet shop boys. "Better Things" is a perfect example of the whole depressing-as-{censored} brit soul thing EBTG specialised in while they were still active.c) despite my picking of nits, thanks for recognising Protection. have you heard No Protection? the Mad Professor dubs the {censored} out of "Better Things".you like the Head of Portis ... have you seen the Alchemists of Sound documentary about the BBC Radiophonic Workshop? Adrian Utley is all over it for some reason. a) thanks for clarifying, that explains the organic sound, I actually thought it was a sine wave through tube amp/preamp b) always liked Tracey's appearances in their own EBTG (first encounter was Each & Everyone in the eighties), she also sung on a couple of tracks on the Style Council's 'Blue Caf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members suitandtieguy Posted August 8, 2006 Members Share Posted August 8, 2006 Originally posted by eminor9 b) always liked Tracey's appearances in their own EBTG (first encounter was Each & Everyone in the eighties), she also sung on a couple of tracks on the Style Council's 'Blue Caf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FWAxeIbanez Posted August 8, 2006 Author Members Share Posted August 8, 2006 Originally posted by suitandtieguy heed and internalise this rant and your bass will have the capacity to be as awesome as the masters of trip hop, Massive Attack.btw, do you have any other MA albums than Mezzanine? Protection and Bluelines are amazing. Thank you sir... truth is I don't really mess around with this stuff much, I'm gonna have to get ahold of some software and toy around. about Massive Attack, no I don't have anything else by them, a buddy from here thought I would like them because I'm into a lot of post rock like Mercury Program, Tristeza, Do Make Say Think, stuff like that... I had heard portishead and dug them, I tend to like a lot of the trip hop stuff with female singers. anyway, I've listened but never had the urge to purchase anything untill he showed me that album. It makes me a major noob to this stuff, I know, but hey you gotta start somewhere right? Gotta ease yourself in with the accessible stuff first I guess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cl516 Posted August 9, 2006 Members Share Posted August 9, 2006 EBTG is indeed amazing, and Tracey's voice is probably among my favourites of all-time. The above comment 'sour', I dunno if that was a compliment or not. Last year or so in both soundonsound and futuremusic, there's been some stuff on massive attack, and from what i remember, the bass is actually a lot more organic/guitar/string stuff than synth. and even if it was synth, it was amped, etc. listening to 'Better Things' certain speakers or headphones is such a comfy experience. i love it so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FWAxeIbanez Posted August 9, 2006 Author Members Share Posted August 9, 2006 who is EBTG? I'd love to get into more stuff like this... any recommendations are welcomed I like the mellower side of it all, doesn't necessarily have to be sad, but the slower more "contemplative" stuff is what gets my attention and really keeps it... I remembered liking Flim by Aphex Twin as well by the way, but the rest of that album didn't do a lot for me, parts here and there sure, but as a whole I usually end up listening to Flim and switching it. Songs like Dissolved Girl, Angel, Teardrop, and Exchange almost flatten me, such a captivating and transporting style about them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members eminor9 Posted August 9, 2006 Members Share Posted August 9, 2006 Originally posted by suitandtieguy funny you should mention that ...http://suitandtieguy.com/sights/leslie_upper_miking.jpgcheck out the sticker on the lower left of my leslie.dave sylvian is my favourite singer/producer ever.what do you think of the new stuff? do you think he's lost it? First, apologies to threadstarter for drifting off topic.Thumbs up for the sticker ! On Sylvian's latest stuff, I don't really think he's lost it, it's just different. I consider him a real artist and real artists should try new areas. Personally I'd say his poetic style has slightly evolved in a whiny style, with current fashionable sounds. Not necessarily bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FWAxeIbanez Posted August 9, 2006 Author Members Share Posted August 9, 2006 bump for recommendations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members eminor9 Posted August 10, 2006 Members Share Posted August 10, 2006 If you like Mezzanine check out-Peace Orchestra-Kruder & Dorfmeister especially 'K&D Sessions 1 & 2'-Zero 7 first 2 albums are quite nice too-Morcheeba's 'Who can you trust'-Sade's 'Lover's Rock' has a nice bassy vibe too Also not directly related to trip hop but definintely containing influences, these are my current favourite artist/producers-Marconi Union -Murcof-Monolake (especially Interstate, Cinemascope, Polygon Cities) for pure electronic but highly organic and very well produced If you like these and need more just tell me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rasp Posted August 10, 2006 Members Share Posted August 10, 2006 Also check out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members elsongs Posted August 10, 2006 Members Share Posted August 10, 2006 Originally posted by suitandtieguy two things:a) not to be a bastard, but that's an heavily filtered wood bass sample. pretty much the same thing as sine wave bass, but i pick nits when i'm deeeerunk. i hope that i don't come off as negative .. i like being positive and helpful. Uhm, not to be a bigger bastard, but the bass line to "Better Things" is a heavily filtered sample of a bassline from James Brown's rendition of "Never Can Say Goodbye." It's even mentioned in the CD liner note's sample credits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members eminor9 Posted August 10, 2006 Members Share Posted August 10, 2006 No bass but trip-hoppy beats, harpsichords (as in Teardrop) and ambient guitars: Arovane 'Tides' His latest 'Lilies' is quite nice too, his previous works are more IDM-ish like early Autechre (Amber, Tri Repetae, Chiastic slide) which I'd recommend too if you like dark sounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members suitandtieguy Posted August 10, 2006 Members Share Posted August 10, 2006 Originally posted by elsongs Uhm, not to be a bigger bastard, but the bass line to "Better Things" is a heavily filtered sample of a bassline from James Brown's rendition of "Never Can Say Goodbye." It's even mentioned in the CD liner note's sample credits. okay cool. it's still a filtered wood bass though. nice to know where it's from. btw, thread parent should check out some LTJ Bukem. that guy is the master of bass-bass and mid-bass working together with atmosphere and soul to make a cohesive unit which withstands countless listenings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members eatsdrummachine Posted August 10, 2006 Members Share Posted August 10, 2006 Originally posted by FWAxeIbanez So I popped on Mezzanine and was floored by the bass tones... How do you go about getting such a woofy yet airy bass tone? as already stated, the key is how it fits into the mix. that said, it helps to have a strong source to work with. I don't believe there's a perfect source for bass (although I prefer my pulse and am inclined to believe the the lil' phattie or the studio electronics stuff would be top shelf, bass station is an economic choice---the list goes on:)). all's I'll say is you have to hear what the sound does in the mix as it anchors the drums and such. stuff that is overtly boomy (tubby) in the 100k-250k range will definately make the mix suffer (this is where kicks 'thump') and you'll have to turn it down (who wants to turn the bass down?) and/or get heavy handed with the EQ. I'll spare you my opinions on what NOT to get for what I consider good bass (ok don't get a nord for the love of god) because that's something only you can truly figure out. decent monitors and trial and error will be the key. /jonny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kooki_sf Posted August 10, 2006 Members Share Posted August 10, 2006 ......i like portishead.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members G-bus Posted August 10, 2006 Members Share Posted August 10, 2006 Originally posted by eatsdrummachine all's I'll say is you have to hear what the sound does in the mix as it anchors the drums and such. stuff that is overtly boomy (tubby) in the 100k-250k range will definately make the mix suffer . . . decent monitors and trial and error will be the key. /jonny Best advice yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FWAxeIbanez Posted August 10, 2006 Author Members Share Posted August 10, 2006 any of you guys on SLSK? It looks like I've got some downloading to do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members G-bus Posted August 10, 2006 Members Share Posted August 10, 2006 Originally posted by FWAxeIbanez any of you guys on SLSK? It looks like I've got some downloading to do Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members syncretism Posted August 10, 2006 Members Share Posted August 10, 2006 Originally posted by suitandtieguy dave sylvian is my favourite singer/producer ever.what do you think of the new stuff? do you think he's lost it? You didn't ask me, but, if _Blemish_ was any indication {as with Scott Walker, it's hard to make sweeping pronouncements about someone who so rarely releases records} no way. He's exploring wonderful territories between Ferry, Bowie and Walker, these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members suitandtieguy Posted August 10, 2006 Members Share Posted August 10, 2006 Originally posted by syncretism You didn't ask me, but, if _Blemish_ was any indication {as with Scott Walker, it's hard to make sweeping pronouncements about someone who so rarely releases records} no way. He's exploring wonderful territories between Ferry, Bowie and Walker, these days. have you heard the Nine Horses album? all the subtlety and spaciousness which has been a hallmark of his mixes is gone. it was so compressed and dry i can barely stand to listen to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members syncretism Posted August 11, 2006 Members Share Posted August 11, 2006 Originally posted by suitandtieguy have you heard the Nine Horses album? I haven't, but Arve Henriksen is always welcome in my CD player, and Sakamoto's return surely can mean only good things? Originally posted by suitandtieguy all the subtlety and spaciousness which has been a hallmark of his mixes is gone. it was so compressed and dry i can barely stand to listen to it. It looks like there were a lot of hands in the making of the album - do you know who mixed it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members eminor9 Posted August 11, 2006 Members Share Posted August 11, 2006 Originally posted by suitandtieguy have you heard the Nine Horses album?all the subtlety and spaciousness which has been a hallmark of his mixes is gone. it was so compressed and dry i can barely stand to listen to it. Here's David's own view on the album and my own opinion is that the album flows nicely but a bit too polished (too many woodwinds for my own taste) and lacking spontanity. Not to mention his lyrics used to be more poetical than they are now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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