help? anyone well versed in darker soul/funk

[cold truth]

ok, ive been trying for some time to nail down sme chords of a soul nature, the kind of darker tones you would find in, say, a blaxploitation film. not much success to be honet. oh, i have come up with some great rchestral/classical type chords, got a fe jazzier and "happier" tones.....

 

there is also the "sinister 80's synth"- think, i dunno, scarface. type tones i have been trying to figure out, also to little avail. sooooooooo i am hoping someone can point me in the right direction. ...

[mate_stubb]

Learn to use a #9 chord (pronounced "sharp 9")

 

Voice it with root in the bass, in the right hand major 3rd on the bottom, dominant 7 in the middle, and sharp 9 on top.

 

Example: C #9 would be C in the bass, and E, Bb Eb in the right hand.

 

Play that on a clavinet thru a wah wah, and you have instant Blacula.

[suitandtieguy]

did someone say "Blacula"?

 

[Amos]

Suit- izzatchur bakelite phone and treadle sewing desk? You sir, have mad style.

 

I need stuff like that to put my 1927 Underwood typewriter and Burroughs adding machine on... they're kinda out of place next to the synths.

[scarecrowbob]

Originally posted by suitandtieguy did someone say "Blacula"?

 

I wish had something to offer on topic, but all I can do is breathe a sigh of relief that I am not the only one who has invested hundreds of dollars in custom road cases for my cats.

 

They are so totally worth it aren't they?

[cold truth]

that didnt really give me what i was looking for, but i do appreciate the suggestion. it did get me in the ball park and thinking in new terms, and thats more valuable in the long run. i'm still goinna play the trial and error game and see what sticks...

 

the rest, hoever... no offense, but it seems like most of my threads ind up with 80 percent of the posts joking about something else and not even offering up a suggestion..... hich really stumps me. you mean to tell me there is only one guy here with any knoledge/understanding of soul? i could accept taht if that were the case; i do not belive that to be so, however...

 

its cool though, im not mad but that is a little bothersome. i dont mind figuring this ut for myself, but i have spent considerable time trying to build chords and tones of this nature and i aasked for help out of frustration and exhaustion. of course i'll get 10 more posts calling me a whiner for saying that, but hey...

[suitandtieguy]

 

Originally posted by cold truth it seems like most of my threads ind up with 80 percent of the posts joking about something else and not even offering up a suggestion.....

 

 

sorry to threadjack, i didn't mean to upset you.

 

i was hesitant to post my response to the thread because my experience with blaxploitation music is mainly focused on Isaac Hayes, and you'll never find a #9 chord in any of his soundtracks. rarely do you hear anything more complex than a 7th (major, minor, or dominant) and when you do it's something diatonic like a sus4 or a straight 9th chord.

 

i would suggest doing what i did: listen to some blaxploitation soundtracks and learn a track inside out and recreate it.

 

here's an unfinished recreation of the track "Pursuit of the Pimpmobile" from the Tough Guys soundtrack that i did with Numerology, 2 Korg Z1s, an Alesis D4, and an Akai S5000 loaded with my own drum samples:

 

http://suitandtieguy.com/sounds/stg_pimpmobile_unfinished.mp3

 

I would also suggest picking up these movies and watching them. over and over again. especially while drinking with friends. they're totally awesome.

 

 

as far as the phone and the treadle desk goes, i wish they were mine but they are just things for sale in the antique store my studio shares its space with. thanks for thinking that's sweet though.

 

and the road case is not for my cat Blacula, he just decided to sit on it while i took photos of it to sell on Ebay. but i should indeed invest in a good ATA case for him in case i need to bring him to gigs for inspirado.

 

this is a side note but for some reason when i shipped that SKB case it turned into a brand new Schwinn bicycle on the way there, retaining its tracking number. i tried convincing him that he won the Grand Prize Game but he was upset because he needed the case more. then it showed up a few days later. very strange.

[syncretism]

 

Originally posted by cold truth the rest, hoever... no offense, but it seems like most of my threads ind up with 80 percent of the posts joking about something else and not even offering up a suggestion..... hich really stumps me. you mean to tell me there is only one guy here with any knoledge/understanding of soul?

 

 

I have zero music theory, but a very good ear. I don't think you'll grok the sound you're trying to replicate until you've listened earnestly to some representative tracks and duplicated them on your preferred instrument {my old notes from high school are littered with makeshift guitar tablature and more personalised notation}. Suit concurs, so I must be onto something.

 

Beyond the notes, soul and funk's capital-A authenticity comes from their timbral character. I don't know what gear was used to record the Persuaders' "Thin Line Between Love and Hate", eg, or Curtis Mayfield's "Pusher", but I know it when I hear it. I'm pretty damned sure I hear it on releases from the NYC-based Truth and Soul label, whose acts recorded albums in 2005 that sound like they were locked in a vault for 30-odd years.

[suitandtieguy]

 

Originally posted by syncretism Beyond the notes, soul and funk's capital-A authenticity comes from their timbral character.

 

 

totally.

 

you can't play gritty knifing-a-pusher-in-the-alley or ballin-two-girls-at-once grooves on a Korg Trinitron.*

 

having some authentic soul music instruments such as a rhodes, wurlitzer, or especially Hammond organ will definitely help you get there musically.

 

 

 

*unless your name is LTJ Bukem

[cold truth]

i have some good instruments to work with. yes, still in the digital domain, but still high quality clav/rhodes/wurly/organ patches, and not from sme weak ass triton! lol

 

i really do appreciate the input

[syncretism]

 

Originally posted by cold truth i have some good instruments to work with. yes, still in the digital domain, but still high quality clav/rhodes/wurly/organ patches, and not from sme weak ass triton! lol i really do appreciate the input

 

 

O, if only it were so easy. Beyond, and perhaps more important than the instruments, you'll find the dreaded Outboard. Heaven help us.

[pink floyd cramer]

Ivan Neville (Aaron's nephew) is a bad mother{censored}er on clav and B3 and Wurli (had a cool master class in Keyboard Mag). He writes good songs too.

 

Also in Keyboard archives- look for articles about Prince's keyboard players, the master class with bernie worrel, and the funk clav workshop ( www.howtojam.com ) -I am still pretty wonderbread but it helped me alot.

[suitandtieguy]

 

Originally posted by cold truth i have some good instruments to work with. yes, still in the digital domain, but still high quality clav/rhodes/wurly/organ patches, and not from sme weak ass triton! lol

 

 

no. you don't understand. it's not about the sounds.

 

it's a package deal.

 

if you don't take an holistic approach to learning period soul music then you are doomed to sound like a twerp with a Triton. it doesn't matter wether it's a plug-in or an Electro.

 

 

spending time with the instruments, wether you own them or not, is vital to the learning process.

[Outkaster]

Here are some other artisits to consider:

 

Isley Brothers

Neville Brothers

Rufus

Slave

Cameo

Billy Preston

Sly and the Family Stone

 

It is important to always go to the source and listen to what these guy's listened to coming up. I asked Bill Payne one time who his influence was and he told me Prof Long Hair and all the old time stride players.

[cold truth]

 

Originally posted by suitandtieguy no. you don't understand. it's not about the sounds. it's a package deal. if you don't take an holistic approach to learning period soul music then you are doomed to sound like a twerp with a Triton. it doesn't matter wether it's a plug-in or an Electro. spending time with the instruments, wether you own them or not, is vital to the learning process.

 

 

no...i DO understand... which is why i have been having trouble. if it were*just* the instruments, i would be doin it already, you know? i have had a small amount of success- but just a small amount.

[suitandtieguy]

 

Originally posted by cold truth no...i DO understand...

 

 

hey dude i just read that reply you replied to and i think it came off as rude. i'm sorry. i don't like accidentally being mean to people on the internet.

 

what i was trying to get across is that if you don't spend serious time playing an actual Wurlitzer 200, start/run motors equipped Hammond with Leslie, Clavinet, and Rhodes you will be at a serious disadvantage to getting in the heads of the people whose sound you're trying to cop.

 

i think playing keyboards in a STAX revue on authentic period instruments would probably teach you everything you need to know. are there any R&B groups where you live that play some of those tunes and need a keyboardist?

 

the STAX/Hi sound is what most blaxploitation soundtracks are based on.

[InsideLookinOut]

Also check out Soulive. Those bruthas r FUNKaY!!!

[suitandtieguy]

 

Originally posted by InsideLookinOut Also check out Soulive. Those bruthas r FUNKaY!!!

 

 

they were on Get Down! and Doin Something.

 

 

then they traded in their suits for hippie jam threads. at the same time Neal got a clavinet with a tap-tempo wah pedal, and started playing crappy wood bass samples instead of actual heavily-modified Hammond organ bass.

 

and the hippie jam scene pandering era of Soulive was born ...

 

 

for the record, Soulive have never played anything remotely Blaxploitation. their sound originally was a fusion of the late sixties Blue Note/Prestige organ trio sound with sub-Berklee School of Music side-stepping. despite the fact that Eric Krantz sidesteps like a trained monkey trying to impress John Coltrane with his best John Scofield impression i still enjoyed his playing in that period considerably.

[pink floyd cramer]

cold truth- if you can, check out David Sanborn's "Straight to the Heart" ( Marcus Miller and Don Grolnick arranged it and played keys) - may be an example of what you are looking for. Keys are piano, Rhodes, Hammond, + some early 80's analog synths. Some like to diss Sanborn as smooth jazz ala Kenny G but his work with Marcus Miller is soulful R&B- would sound great even without any sax solos IMO.

 

A Sanborn-ish example: play a Dmin9 voiced (from bottom) C E F A. Follow that with a G9th-5 (flatted 5th) voiced B Db F A. Then play a Csus voiced Bb D F A (the 2 top notes don't change during this sequence but the bassline is D G C). Reinforce the E Db D movement with a string line or by doubling it an octave lower. Push the beat on the 2nd chord and hold the last chord.

 

Here's a circle-of-5ths ending I made up that features a descending 4th interval:

 

Bdim (voiced A B D F)

 

E13th-9 (voiced G# C# F)

 

Amin9 (voiced G B C E)

 

D13-5 (voiced F# G# B C E)

 

Gsus (voiced F A C E)

 

Put over a "Chain of Fools" kind of beat-- each chord (except for Gsus at end) gets 2 beats. Resolve to Amin or Cmaj7.

[pink floyd cramer]

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/18/t/002609.html

 

 

this may be of more help than my trailor park jazz drivel.

[cold truth]

i started out with some of the concepts/ideas you guys gave me.... i played ith all of the chord sugegstions and whatnot.. i made this playing with the A C D F suggestion someone made, though it didnt wind up actually using that chord..

 

anyhow i am personally happy with here i'm going with this, though i'd like to hear whatever criticims/feedback/etc anyone has on this so far.

 

http://www.myspace.com/coldtruth

 

"You'd Better RUn"

 

 

oh yeah, in case you didnt know hip hop is my "format" of choice.

i dont sample, though i personally love sampled material but i'd preffer to build my legacy on the composing front (not that you cant/dont compose using samples, but you get where im coming from) and i am aiming a little bit higher then hat is normally expected of keyboard based hip hop producers...

 

anyhow, i dont have a hook for it yet, and i am planning on throwinmg some congas in there... but otherwise leaving the base loop as is (unless i get some killer advice from you guys)

anyhow just thought i'd show you guys where your ideas tok me...

 

and thanks for the ideas. im still working with them. im not the best player or knwledgeable composer by a longshot..... but hey im here to learn more and get better.