Gibson GA19 Falcon 7199 / 6C4 / 6EU7

[capnjuan]

Hi folks; I'm new to this board but at the risk of throwing gas on this problem, here goes. There's a fair amount of confusion about which tubes go where in this amp.

 

Unfortunately, it depends on the amp. Since one of these amps is on its way to my house, I thought I might read up on the subject, you know, like all those stupid teachers used to tell us to do...

 

Anyway, here we go: This is a link to a public domain schematic of a Gibson GA19 Falcon:

 

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r106/capnjuan/gibson%20falcon/GibsonGA19.jpg

 

For purposes of this discussion, we'll call this the 7199 version, that is, this schematic includes a 7199 at V2 with a reverb transformer and can suspended between its two halves. Those of you not drinking that much will note that the tube drawn in the schematic and labelled V3 looks suspiciously like a 6C4 (found in other Gibbys) even though the 'Placement Chart' says it's a 6EU7 - see how much fun we're having already?

 

Before moving on and according to the following:

http://tdsl.duncanamps.com/show.php?des=7199

 

The 7199, as drawn on the 7199 version of the schematic, does not precisely match the 7199 schematic at duncanamps.com...just thought I'd point that out to help clear things up...

 

 

This is a link to another public domain schematic also labelled Gibson GA19 Falcon: http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r106/capnjuan/gibson%20falcon/GibsonGA19MaestroM216.jpg

 

This one we'll call the 6C4 version. I labelled it 'Maestro M216' because, well, it says M-216 on its face which is strongly suggestive of an up-scale 'Maestro' series Gibson amp, not a conventional Gibson tweed, or later crest, GA19 Falcon.

 

Those of you who are actually looking at the 6C4 version will notice several things including (1) the tube lineup is numbered right to left (instead of left to right - talk about upgrading the designs) and (2) at least as drawn, 1/2 of a 6C4 (V3: even though it is a triode and there is no other half) on the front side of the reverb transformer and can and a 1/2 of a 6EU7 (V2) on the back side.

 

There may or may not be other distinctions; I am neither anal nor educated enough to see what those differences are. I was mostly trying to satisfy my own curiosity how Gibson amp owners, normally a studly bunch, could be so confused.

 

If you own one of these and want to know which, if either, of these schematics applies, find the reverb transformer and determine which tube feeds it and/or follow the can output forward and identify which tube it's feeding.

 

As pointed out in one of the HC reviews, a 7199 is a 9-pin tube with terminations on every pin of the socket and the 6C4 is a 7-pin tube with, according to Duncan Amps, terminations of 6 of the 7 pins in the socket.

 

If you're not interested in this process but think your amp needs attention, then before blindly following the Placement Chart and stuffing tubes in unmarked sockets, consider printing these drawings and dragging your amp somewhere for the help you think it needs.

 

I think the 2nd schematic carrying the public domain name of 'GA19 Falcon' has contributed to the problem not to mention Gibson's endless revisions to the details of its products.

 

If anyone else has yet another variation of this schematic, I'd appreciate you emailing it to me if you can. I'm looking forward to my GA19 - whichever one it is and hope some of you other Falcon owners have found this helpful.

 

If it helps, I've tried to attach the 6C4 / M-216 version, it's the less common...didn't know I could...live and learn.

[seifukusha]

'tis an amp here?

[erksin]

The '61 tweed GA-19RVT and '62-'63 brown Crestline version are the same electronically (these are the 6C4 versions).

 

 

The later '64-'65s are the 7199 versions (easily ID'd by the knobs and black tolex)...

 

 

And FWIW - the Maestro M-216 is the same as the '61-'63 Falcons, just came with a Jensen C-15-N.

 

[erksin]

Originally posted by seifukusha 'tis an amp here?

 

'Tis - and an awesome one at that!

 

[p00n]

Originally posted by erksin The '61 tweed GA-19RVT and '62-'63 brown Crestline version are the same electronically (these are the 6C4 versions). The later '64-'65s are the 7199 versions (easily ID'd by the knobs and black tolex)... And FWIW - the Maestro M-216 is the same as the '61-'63 Falcons, just came with a Jensen C-15-N.

 

Hmm interesting.. Mine's the 7199 version, but the tech labeled the tube as 6C4, so either its labeled wrong or he changed the knobs and tolex.

 

Semi-OT: Do any of you find your amp noisy? Like in a bad grounding type of buzz? It goes away slightly when you touch the strings/metal but becomes more pronounced with trem and verb. Its not very noticable normally, but in a quiet room its quite loud comparitively.

 

Is that an indication that the tubes are going? I doubt its my guitar, its been alright with other amps

[erksin]

 

Originally posted by p00n Hmm interesting.. Mine's the 7199 version, but the tech labeled the tube as 6C4, so either its labeled wrong or he changed the knobs and tolex. Semi-OT: Do any of you find your amp noisy? Like in a bad grounding type of buzz? It goes away slightly when you touch the strings/metal but becomes more pronounced with trem and verb. Its not very noticable normally, but in a quiet room its quite loud comparitively. Is that an indication that the tubes are going? I doubt its my guitar, its been alright with other amps

 

 

He could have worked off the wrong schematic perhaps. Didn't we figure out that yours was a late '63 anyway? Which knobs are on yours - like the ones on my brown amp or the ones on the black?

 

My Falcon is a little noisy compared to my other vintage amps - more suseptable to RF/EMI type than say my Fenders. I don't know what accounts for it - but chassis layout is what I'd guess. Mine is no worse with trem or reverb, FWIW.

[p00n]

 

Originally posted by erksin He could have worked off the wrong schematic perhaps. Didn't we figure out that yours was a late '63 anyway? Which knobs are on yours - like the ones on my brown amp or the ones on the black? My Falcon is a little noisy compared to my other vintage amps - more suseptable to RF/EMI type than say my Fenders. I don't know what accounts for it - but chassis layout is what I'd guess. Mine is no worse with trem or reverb, FWIW.

 

 

I think you said that mine was a late '64 it has the large backpiece and black knobs..

 

I'll check the pinout of the tubes when I get back home in a few days

[Wilbo26]

This has to be one of the more ridiculously on-topic-to-the-point-that-reediculous-does-not-cover-it first posts/threads ever.

[bleepedybloops]

my first post was in response to one of those type in your name and you get your "Gangsta Name"

The name I got was so awesome that I responded to the thread.

Then after that I asked in the DIY forum how to build a powersupply and that fag Guitarman63mm told me I was going to kill myself and for everyone else not to tell me anything.

[Wilbo26]

Originally posted by bleepedybloops my first post was in response to one of those type in your name and you get your "Gangsta Name" The name I got was so awesome that I responded to the thread. Then after that I asked in the DIY forum how to build a powersupply and that fag Guitarman63mm told me I was going to kill myself and for everyone else not to tell me anything.

 

Well I for one suggest you do whatever you want and not worry what people over the internets tell you, as long as you're safe. I think maybe some people get a little too worried about lawyers and the internet these days.

[erksin]

Originally posted by Wilbo26 This has to be one of the more ridiculously on-topic-to-the-point-that-reediculous-does-not-cover-it first posts/threads ever.

 

No {censored}.

 

I'm gonna reserve judgment, but I don't see him starting any poo related threads in OJ any time soon...

 

Welcome capnjuan!

 

[Wilbo26]

Originally posted by erksin No {censored}. I'm gonna reserve judgment, but I don't see him starting any poo related threads in OJ any time soon... Welcome capnjuan!

 

This guy is most certainly poo-proof!!!

[bleepedybloops]

Originally posted by Wilbo26 Well I for one suggest you do whatever you want and not worry what people over the internets tell you, as long as you're safe. I think maybe some people get a little too worried about lawyers and the internet these days.

Haha thanks man.

In the end he got baninated and I decided that i didnt need to have an all in one power supply to do 9vAC and DC and that a few wallwarts would do

[capnjuan]

Thank you for the pleasant greetings. Photo below of the in-bound amp bought recently on eBay:

 

 

Since the seller muffed the ID as a GA5, I wasn't going to wear him out on the subject of whether it was a 6C4 or a 7199 model and, no, the harmonicas were not in the auction and neither was the snake / jump rope / coily thang...

 

The hole in the top of the cabinet is suggestive of an amp-lobotomy, monitor out, or vent for the water vapor produced by the harmonica player's hot breath through the microphone...or a medieval (gothic?) effort to get rid of pesky noise by letting the demon in the amp out...we'll see.

 

I believe this is an early-60s model, make that a rough early-60s model having some of that fallen-down-the-stairs-a-few-too-many-times charm to it. I hope, as Erskine has suggested, it follows the M-216 version of available schematics, or, I hope it follows the other one...as long it follows something.

 

Once back from a decontamination facility, plans include normal fix-em-up but I wanted to ask you folks about recovering it. I haven't been able to find any Gibson-style tweed tolex in the aftermarket; only the Fender-style.

 

The Gibson stuff is like the tablecloths in cheap Italian restaurants; vinyl bonded to tweed-patterned, cotton cloth. I was thinking about red and white check, you know, calling it an Italian version - at least I'd have the material corrrect.

 

I hate the idea of dressing it up in another man's clothes but they look so darn good cleaned up; other than I'm too cheap to buy a mint version - What Sayeth Ye?

[erksin]

Originally posted by capnjuan Thank you for the pleasant greetings. Photo below of the in-bound amp bought recently on eBay: Since the seller muffed the ID as a GA5, I wasn't going to wear him out on the subject of whether it was a 6C4 or a 7199 model and, no, the harmonicas were not in the auction and neither was the snake / jump rope / coily thang... The hole in the top of the cabinet is suggestive of an amp-lobotomy, monitor out, or vent for the water vapor produced by the harmonica player's hot breath through the microphone...or a medieval (gothic?) effort to get rid of pesky noise by letting the demon in the amp out...we'll see. I believe this is an early-60s model, make that a rough early-60s model having some of that fallen-down-the-stairs-a-few-too-many-times charm to it. I hope, as Erskine has suggested, it follows the M-216 version of available schematics, or, I hope it follows the other one...as long it follows something. Once back from a decontamination facility, plans include normal fix-em-up but I wanted to ask you folks about recovering it. I haven't been able to find any Gibson-style tweed tolex in the aftermarket; only the Fender-style. The Gibson stuff is like the tablecloths in cheap Italian restaurants; vinyl bonded to tweed-patterned, cotton cloth. I was thinking about red and white check, you know, calling it an Italian version - at least I'd have the material corrrect. I hate the idea of dressing it up in another man's clothes but they look so darn good cleaned up; other than I'm too cheap to buy a mint version - What Sayeth Ye?

 

Beauty!

 

It's a '61 - the Falcon was introduced in '61 as one of Gibsons first reverb combos and that was the last year of the tweed models.

 

I dunno about recovering it - see how bad it is first. The '61 Falcons are the most prized (due to the tweed mojo) - I've seen them go for over $1000 on the 'Bay in good condition.

 

[capnjuan]

Thanks Erskine; that's a 10-4 on the wait and see. The GA18 came pretty clean with TSP followed by ArmorAll using a small bristle brush.

 

The other small Gibson I own showed up with no tolex at all so there was never a choice but the good-looking outcome using Fender tweed...well, it sort of changes the equation.

 

Thanks for your vote; I wish everyone's 'problems' were as minor as this.

 

Happy Holidays!

[capnjuan]

Hi erskin; the amp showed up a few days ago. Another single-fingered salute to Orville and the Gibsons; the tweed model showed up with a 7199 in the V2 position, not the expected 6C4...go figure.

 

If you're interested, I'll send you the serial number; at some point, they had to have switched from one layout to the other. I can't believe they just flipped a coin or somthing to decide between a 6C4 and 7199.

 

Tolex: hot drink ring burn on top and usual tattered shoulders but on the sides and lower back panel, the cotton underside of the tolex is stained with mold or bacteria; looks like it was splattered with orange/brown paint except the discoloration color is not 'on' the tolex, it's 'under' it. Washed surface with soap, TSP, then solvent; the surface is clean but stains remain...all this in addition to 3/4" hole drilled clean through top of the amp.

 

Speaker: seller said it was alnico magnavox but baffle has delaminated to the point where listener can't distinguish speaker from baffle buzz; baffle is no big deal and will reserve judgement on speaker. Some of these are supposed to sound pretty good.

 

Pre-amp tubes: seller failed to pull the pre-amp tube covers off. If he had, he would have seen an original set of Gibson-branded pre-amp tubes including the 7199 ---- except for the 7199, the silk-screened Gibson logo is completely intact. The 6EU7s have been replaced with near matching 60s units; the originals are safely stored.

 

Considering the cost / sound quality / useful life of a NOS 7199 v. re-wiring to 6AN8, the 6AN8 doesn't offer the promise of enhanced performance and there are too many other things to do on amp.

 

If it weren't for the hole in the head, I'd probably leave the tolex alone; glue down the corners and let it go. I once had a car accident that required extensive body work to the right side; both doors, door pillar, and rocker panel. Had it repaired to apparently as-new condition; later took it to trade in on newer car.

 

The appraiser came out of the back, looked at it and said: "Nice car, too bad about the right side" and cut $1,500 off the trade value.

 

I could 'patch' the hole; wood plug, aftermarket tolex, and I'd still have a patched head. Authentic looking? Yes, sort of if left in place with unfixable tolex stains - it would be 'garage-band' authentic but I want it to sound cared-for and I want it to look as good as I can make it sound.

 

Thanks again for your reply but cosmetically, this one's too far gone.

 

Happy Holidays!!

[Kace]

Originally posted by capnjuan

 

I have one of the exact same model. Mine is in similar cosmetic shape - probably a bit worse off, but it's not working presently and I haven't had the cash to find/take it to a tech. Don't see the tweed version too often. You may have better luck looking for the model GA19RVT.

 

Check here

Gibson Amp Project for pics and schematics for this thing.

 

I think I have a schematic for it somewhere on my computer. I gotta get to work but I'll find it later if you're interested.

[capnjuan]

Thank you Kace: I have the schematic; in fact, both versions - the 7199 and the 6C4 versions. I was trying to get some feedback on the re-cover or not dilemma before it arrived.

 

Mine's got a bad case of mold under the tolex living in the cotton backing. Amp acne is one thing, leprosy is another. I mean if I was going to play it in my garage, that'd be one thing...it's pretty nasty.

 

This one runs, sound ok, and has potential. I think the 7199 reverb drive/recover tube is shot and the can is pretty tired; it looks like battery acid being dripped on it.

 

I'm happy with it; I try to get stuff with some 'mojo' and still has some life left in it; this one has both.

 

What it needs is love and care...which I do better than I play the guitar.

 

Thanks for the offer but I'm good; you may want to check your schematic; whether it's the 7199 - usually the earlier 'tweed' version or the 6C4 which is thought by guys who actually know something, to apply to the later 'Crest' models. I left an earlier post with links to both if you want; help yourself.

 

Regards!