Just A/B'd the Verbzilla & Holy Grail as well as dd-20 & DL-4

[TheGreatGreen]

First off, I'll talk about the delay pedals.

 

DD-20 : The Good

 

The DD-20 is by far the easier of the two to use, mainly because it has a manual mode. It's also the more "plug & play" of the two pedals. Setting up different delay sounds takes way less time on this unit. You want a different delay sound? First of all, don't even worry about the other delay modes besides "standard" because it, combined with the tone knob, sounds good enough to get pretty much any delay sound you could want; in-your-face edge style repeats to dulled yet defined echoes are possible with just a sweep of the tone knob. The overall sound quality on this unit is around the same if not a tiny bit better than the DL-4 (but you could only really tell in an A/B test, and that's if you really listen hard), only it takes less tweaking to get good tones from the DD-20.

 

DD-20 : The Bad

 

What I didn't like about the DD-20 was that you can't mute the dry signal. There is an "E. Level" knob, but don't let that fool you. It's not a regular mix knob. Turning the knob all the way to the right simply makes the initial delay sound equal in volume to the dry signal, instead of mixing it out completely. HUGE negative points here, because this pretty much makes expanding into bigger, W/D/W rigs in the future impossible. There is a way to make *one* out of the two channels wet only, but it requires restarting the unit and messing with settings and saving, and then only one channel can be 100% wet. Also, the looper sucks, but worse than that, it could have easily been better. The reason the looper sucks is because once you record a loop, it stays on until you stop playing it, whereupon it is erased. You can't store a loop in the memory and start/stop it as you please because it is erased when you stop it. This could have easily been avoided too, because the right pedal does nothing in looper mode. They could have easily made that pedal a start/stop pedal, but they didn't. I'm guessing they made their looper shitty on purpose because otherwise they couldn't sell their dedicated looper.

 

DL-4 : The Good

 

The DL-4 can sound just as good as the DD-20, but I found that it takes a lot more fiddling with the tweak and tweeze knobs. This pedal is definitely not plug and play. While this can be good for people who like to spend hours getting their sound perfect, this can be an advantage because a lot more parameters are controllable. However, simply getting a good sound really fast is kind of tough. Also, with no manual mode, it's kind of frustrating to just edit on-the-go as well. This is because when you do save and recall a preset, it's pretty impossible to tell what the values are, because the knobs don't have to display their actual values. That said, once you do save a sound you like, all you really should need to edit is the tempo, and there's a switch for that, so this actually isn't that big of a problem. Something I like about the DL-4 is that it has a lot more possible uses than just being a straight up delay pedal. The auto-volume swell setting is *very* cool and I could see myself using that all the time, and the looper is a lot better than that of the DD-20. Also, there are more delay sounds to choose from overall and as I said earlier, it's a much more tweakable unit. This unit is also simply more fun to use than the DD-20 IMO.

 

DL-4 : The Bad

 

Well, everybody knows these pedals are known for their unreliability. Switches break, boards short out, knobs stop working, all kinds of stuff. Also, I've heard the pedals are picky about fx loop volume, although I didn't have a problem with that when I was testing them. Also, people say that powering them is a bitch because of their hefty 1200 mA requirement. Also, it's said that the pedal doesn't sound quite as good as the DD-20, but with tweaking, I think it would be very hard to tell the difference between the two.

 

 

Overall Summary and Key Points

 

 

Each of these pedals does something better than the other. I'm fairly convinced that if you're looking for a straight up, meat and potatoes delay that gets the job done and sounds great doing it, the DD-20 can't be beat for its sound quality and ease of use. The DL-4 can match the DD-20's sound quality with a lot of tweaking, but it can't surpass it.

 

However, the DL-4 has many more options than the DD-20, including lots of fun and usable modes, as well as better specific parameter control, and includes (IMO) necessary features that the DD-20 simply doesn't have; namely the ability to kill the dry signal if desired for future rig expansion. Also, and I know this isn't integral to a delay pedal, but the DL-4's looper kicks the DD-20's looper's ass, and it does it for none other than the obvious reason that the folks over at Boss wanted to sabotage their own delay pedal looper to persuade people to buy their dedicated looper. I say this because in looper mode of the DD-20, the obvious thing that the right pedal should have done would have been to start and stop playback. Instead, Boss programmed it to do nothing. This pisses me off on a personal level, because it can either mean that Boss is lazy, or that as I said, they intentionally gimped the DD-20's looper in hopes of selling their other looper.

 

Basically to me, the perfect delay pedal would be the sound quality and ease of use of the DD-20, but with Line 6's looper, ability to bypass the dry signal, auto-volume swell, better parameter controls (tweak and tweeze knobs, anybody?) and its slew of other features.

 

As for my decision, I'm getting the Line 6 DL-4. I'm a tweaker, so I know I can get it to sound just as good as the DD-20 (hey, I did it in the store today) even though it might take some time. Also, the DL-4 to me is just more fun to use. On top of a solid, quality delay, there are a lot more things in this pedal to help get the creative juices flowing as well. As far as reliability, I'm not rough on my gear, and it probably won't leave my studio very often if at all, so I'm not too worried.

 

 

 

 

Verbzilla vs. Holy Grail Reverb

 

This review will be pretty short, just so you know.

 

First, I plugged into the Verbzilla. I set it up to run in the fx loop of a fender deluxe reverb amp. I thought it sounded okay with tweaking and I was kind of entertained by it. The octo setting was particularly fun.

 

Then, I plugged into the Holy Grail. Okay, this reverb is also really nice. Nicer than the verbzilla, even. So, I tinkered with it for a while and decided to plug into the Verbzilla again... Wow, what a piece of shit the Verbzilla was! I couldn't believe it.. Compared to the richness and complexity of the Holy Grail, the verbzilla sounded flat, processed, and lifeless.

 

There's really not much of a comparison to be made here... just that the Holy Grail is better in pretty much every way.If you have ANY doubt as to what reverb unit you might want to get, go for the Holy Grail. You won't regret it.

[WorkingClassDan]

Nice, pretty detailed reviews...thanks.

 

i think the DD20 vs DL4 is done to death and more the ongoigjn argument is in the battle of the verbs.

[TheGreatGreen]

Yeah, I've seen a lot of info about the dd-20 vs. dl-4. Just thought I'd give my 2 cents worth while I'm fresh from A/Bing them.

 

As for the reverbs, I don't see why people are even entertaining the idea of comparing them.

[ChristinasDream]

I totally disagree; the Verbzilla excels only when it is used in more abstract ways, while the Holy Grail excels only at "standard" sounds.

 

The Verbzilla is essentially an excellent pedal for ambient sounds. I relate it to literally Fripp/Eno in a box. It mixed with a good filter, some delay, and what ever modulation you want is an inexpensive way to do very beautiful synth sounds on guitar without dropping in thousands of dollars on rack equipment.

 

I use both in my setup. The Holy Grail is part of my standard guitar sound, but during a majority of my music, I abuse my Verbzilla for it's synth qualities.

[TheGreatGreen]

I agree with you about the Verbzilla being better at the synth thing.

 

My main point in the review was that for what comes to mind when you think of rich, complex, lush guitar reverb, the Verbzilla isn't even in the same league as the Holy Grail.

 

Maybe if it was called the "Synthzilla" or "Ambientzilla," the sounds in the box would be truer to its name.

[The Friendly Ranger]

Yeah, I rarely use the Verbzilla for traditional reverb sounds.

[angelhair0]

Great reviews. I just want to add that I don't think you can compare a spring/hall type analog reverb to a digital reverb like the Verbzilla. Very very different units. The HG has one knob and three settings. The Verbzilla has a ton. It's just two really different things.

 

And another great thing about the DL4 is how awesome it sounds turning the delay time knob while playing. On the DD20, it's glitchy and digital sounding. A huge bummer for me.

 

The DD20 has no sweep echo, or tube echo. The DL4's analog setting has a lot more headroom. The DD20's analog echo, even with the tone all the way up, deteriorates way too quickly. The tape echo on the DD20 is a horrible imitation of real tape echo. The DL4 does it way better. The DL4's looping is not only storable into memory, but you can reverse it and slow it down. Also, a trick to get more loop time is to slow it down BEFORE you record it. Then it's twice as long. Plus, you have delay while recording your loop. So much better of a pedal in every way except for stability.

[Spydog1985]

Wow, what a piece of shit the Verbzilla was! I couldn't believe it.. Compared to the richness and complexity of the Holy Grail, the verbzilla sounded flat, processed, and lifeless.

 

 

That's where your review lost all credibility...

 

 

But glad you took the time to write your opinions out.

[Vedder323]

Fantastic review, thanks for sharing.

[TheGreatGreen]

That's where your review lost all credibility... But glad you took the time to write your opinions out.

 

Hehe, well at least I had cred with the first 98% of the review.

 

 

Maybe you guys are correct in that my review of the Verbzilla was a little rash. I probably didn't run it through the proper paces and experiment with every nuance of the pedal to discover the specialized things it seems to be good at, judging by most everyone's opinion. After all, it is a fairly complex unit in terms of available algorithms and operational parameters when put next to other reverb units (like the Holy Grail, with it's one knob and single three position switch). However, I did A/B it with the Holy Grail for a decent amount of time, and I still maintain that as far as straight up, pound for pound reverb sound quality goes, the Holy Grail remains head and shoulders above the Verbzilla.

[DLDude]

How much is a Holy Grail vs. a Verbzilla?

[TheGreatGreen]

I bought a Holy Grail today for $100. The Verbzillas are going for $150 I think.

[WorkingClassDan]

Great reviews. I just want to add that I don't think you can compare a spring/hall type analog reverb to a digital reverb like the Verbzilla. Very very different units. The HG has one knob and three settings. The Verbzilla has a ton. It's just two really different things. And another great thing about the DL4 is how awesome it sounds turning the delay time knob while playing. On the DD20, it's glitchy and digital sounding. A huge bummer for me.

 

The Holy Grail is digital, not analog.

 

I agree with you on the DD20's oscillation. It's different and certainly not as much fun as analog oscillation. But on everything else, happy to disagree with you But this battle of the delay pedals has been done a million times.

[danut]

 

The Holy Grail is digital, not analog.

 

 

Yes, but only when it comes to the effect. Otherwise, the HG blends the original, unaffected tone with the effect, while Verbzilla digitalizes the entire signal path from the very beginning.

[justintee]

thanks for sharing your thoughts. gives this place more life

 

i was deciding between the verb vs the hg a while back. decided not to get either in the end. best option for me at that time!

[Seth Carmody]

I'm gassing for a Holiest Grail - the Holy and Holier don't have enough parameter control for me.

[english_bob]

DL-4 : The Bad

 

Don't forget that the looper only works properly in mono. If you use it with stereo ins and outs, the volume is drastically reduced, making it pretty much useless. If you wanted to fully exploit the stereo delay effects on the DL-4 AND use the looper, you'd need a second DL-4 running in mono earlier in your chain, meaning that your loops potentially can't use your modulation effects, which you'd also want to run in stereo for best effect.

 

Of course, you could buy each of those again to use in mono, but at that point it's getting silly

[TheGreatGreen]

 

I'm gassing for a Holiest Grail - the Holy and Holier don't have enough parameter control for me.

 

 

Yeah, I haven't tried out the Holier or Holiest Grails, but because of the drastic increases in price, I think the plain old Holy Grail is fine with me. The only reason I'd want to increase the features of the Holy Grail would be to add a tone control to dampen the highs and maybe a diffusion control to thicken things up even more. However, you don't get those controls until you spend money for the Holiest Grail. But right now, the regular Holy Grail's tone isn't harsh or too trebly, and there's plenty of diffusion going on, so it's not like those controls are an absolute necessity or anything.

 

I'll stick with the Holy Grail.

 

 

 

BTW, the street price on the Grails are as follows:

 

Holy - $100

 

Holier - $200

 

Holiest - $350

[Seth Carmody]

Yep, that Holiest ain't cheap, though you can find them for around $270 street.

From my past experiences with reverb, tone (dampening) control is pretty much essential. The predelay options look interesting and preset saving would also be handy. The expression pedal jack means you don't need a volume pedal in your chain to do swells.

 

No flerb though

 

PS. I keep coming back into this thread just to look at those Oktoberfest girls in your avatar

[threm]

 

"by 44ofjuly

 

Frankly speaking, naming a pedal is not really as easy as it seems. If only all distortion pedals are just distortion pedals and delay, well, just delay pedals. And so for this month

[threm]

To summarize, the Holiest Grail is:

 

Pros:

 

[Seth Carmody]

 

[Joranges]

I was hoping for clips.

 

Personally just from the features of the DL-4/DD-20.. I thought it was a no-brainer. The DL-4 sounds great to me, as well as the DD-20; however there's just so much more you can do with the DL-4 than the DD-20. What I've found from delay pedals is that the more control usually means the better it is (assuming they're voiced well).

 

Except that doesn't go so much for reverbs in my book, I just like plain ol' boring reverb. I really wouldn't know what to do with all those extra options on the Holier/Holiest grail

[Seth Carmody]

If anyone else is thinking of picking up a Holiest, this seller just accepted my $250 "best offer", with free global shipping. Maybe you can wear them down even further.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140097483509

[slc_dan]

 

And another great thing about the DL4 is how awesome it sounds turning the delay time knob while playing. On the DD20, it's glitchy and digital sounding. A huge bummer for me. The DD20 has no sweep echo, or tube echo. The DL4's analog setting has a lot more headroom. The DD20's analog echo, even with the tone all the way up, deteriorates way too quickly. The tape echo on the DD20 is a horrible imitation of real tape echo. The DL4 does it way better. The DL4's looping is not only storable into memory, but you can reverse it and slow it down. Also, a trick to get more loop time is to slow it down BEFORE you record it. Then it's twice as long. Plus, you have delay while recording your loop. So much better of a pedal in every way except for stability.

 

 

couple things.

 

I think once you've played couple other delay's oscillation you will grow to HATE the dl4's pitchshifting sounds, when you listen closely you hear it go through weird "steps" before it really moves with you. Seriously, the de7's pitch shifting is much better at a 1/4th the price.

 

the looper on the dl4 is the only reason I still own it. The dd20's looper is a neat feature to have, but nothing that you could actually use live.

 

zilla vs. grail?

if you want spring reverb sounds, everyone knows go for the holy grail, but nothing beyond that. The zilla doesn't do subtle very well, but does great beyond that.