QSC K12's ROCK - for Keys!

[GigMan]

So I finally bought a pair of powered spkrs. to use as stage monitors for the occasional gigs where I supply my own PA - a pair of the QSC K12's

 

1st thing I did was plug my Yamaha S90ES into them in stereo, no mixer - it sounds incredible... I thought my JBL EON G15's sounded good, w/their 15" woofers - but these K12's sound even better. Less harsh, more power and the 12" woofer puts out very powerful bass in Normal moded and a HUGE amount of bass "DEEP" mode - - and NO HISS whatsoever. The EONs are quite hissy - the hiss is covered up once you start playing music thru them - whether it's a live band or recorded/DJ music - but still, it's kind of annoying to hear the hiss in between songs. Plus, when playing thru them at home - esp. just quiet acoustic piano stuff - the lack of hiss is really nice.

 

I'll bet the QSC K10'swould be great too (for keys), w/only a 10" woofer but I wanted the K12's to use as stage monitors for a band setting... now that I've heard how nice they sound I think I'll use them for mains and relegate the EONs to monitors.

[donaldcrunk]

the QSC powered speaker series are a much better value overall than the JBL eons - you can push them harder before limiting, they sound better, well constructed, and they aren't made by a subsidary of Harman Music Group which means you can get parts very quickly. i've worked on both speakers and i have to say the QSC is a really well thought out speaker, from a repair standpoint.

 

 

their subwoofer that goes with that series is also excellent.

 

for a PA on sticks rig, you can't do any better at that pricepoint. QSC makes some good stuff.

[GigMan]

the QSC powered speaker series are a much better value overall than the JBL eons - you can push them harder before limiting, they sound better, well constructed, and they aren't made by a subsidary of Harman Music Group which means you can get parts very quickly. i've worked on both speakers and i have to say the QSC is a really well thought out speaker, from a repair standpoint. their subwoofer that goes with that series is also excellent. for a PA on sticks rig, you can't do any better at that pricepoint. QSC makes some good stuff.

 

Aye - although, just to clarify: my EONs are the EON15 G2's, got 'em in 2002 - not the current models ("G3's"?), which are not so great... I thought the EON15 G2's were the shizzle (better than Mackie SRM450's & any other pwr. spkrs. out there) - until I heard these K12's! Lucky for me I like them, since I didn't want to have to ship them back to Indiana...

[Masaaki]

Aye - although, just to clarify: my EONs are the EON15 G2's, got 'em in 2002 - not the current models (" G3's "?), which are not so great... I thought the EON15 G2's were the shizzle (better than Mackie SRM450's & any other pwr. spkrs. out there) - until I heard these K12's! Lucky for me I like them, since I didn't want to have to ship them back to Indiana...

 

I too have a pair of EON15G2, and I was tweeking EQ to get rid of the hiss, but gave up. I was actually going power amp and speaker cabinet separation. Do you think JBL speakers just give that hiss thing? or is it just about EON 15G2.

Thanks.

[donaldcrunk]

properly operating JBL's radiate some amount of self noise, i don't remember the figure offhand, but if it's so noticable as to be intrusive during a full volume performance.

 

if the hiss is really bad, you either have a defective unit or a gain staging issue somewhere up the chain

[Masaaki]

properly operating JBL's radiate some amount of self noise, i don't remember the figure offhand, but if it's so noticable as to be intrusive during a full volume performance. if the hiss is really bad, you either have a defective unit or a gain staging issue somewhere up the chain

 

It's not that bad, I'm not using them for recording. But I'm thinking to replace them with preamp-mixer/graphic EQ/power amp/unpowerd speakers, for better controls and recording. Does QSC make unpowered PA speakers? I couldn't find in their web site but I might have missed something obvious.

Thanks.

[GigMan]

properly operating JBL's radiate some amount of self noise, i don't remember the figure offhand, but if it's so noticable as to be intrusive during a full volume performance. if the hiss is really bad, you either have a defective unit or a gain staging issue somewhere up the chain

 

The JBL EON15 G2's are known to be hissy... I mean, you're playing or singing or DJ'ing thru them, you don't notice it but on breaks or during quiet passages it's a little annoying.

 

The QSC K12's on the other hand - absolutely dead quiet, even full-throttle (gain all the way up)... it's pretty amazing.

[GigMan]

I too have a pair of EON15G2, and I was tweeking EQ to get rid of the hiss, but gave up. I was actually going power amp and speaker cabinet separation. Do you think JBL speakers just give that hiss thing? or is it just about EON 15G2. Thanks.

 

You can't EQ the hiss away, you'd also remove the good highs that you do want, along w/the hiss itself...

 

Try the QSC K12's - you'll dig 'em for sure. Match 'em up w/a nice little mixer like the Soundcraft MFXi 8 (miy new one) or whatever your personal choice is... BOOM! Instant high-quality PA/keyboard rig. [-;

[Masaaki]

You can't EQ the hiss away, you'd also remove the good highs that you do want, along w/the hiss itself... Try the QSC K12's - you'll dig 'em for sure. Match 'em up w/a nice little mixer like the Soundcraft MFXi 8 (miy new one) or whatever your personal choice is... BOOM! Instant high-quality PA/keyboard rig. [-;

 

I got Rane DEQ60L grEq while ago trying to minimize some low freq resonance in my basement (unfinished wood floor on the ceiling, and concrete floor). I also tried 20k band down to -3db or something with DEQ, and EON's hiss became "acceptable", but not gone, of course. Yes, I agree, with the EQ, I lost some good high, particularly when I mic'd acoustic guitar (steel strings) and violin through condenser mic. The typical glissand sounds I like wasn't there. I want to try QSC, if I can, but I've already spent quite a bit on mogami cables, power conditioner, A&H mixer, etc to upgrade my recording quality...so..oh yeah, I can sell them to somebody who doesn't know the hiss.....

[NuSkoolTone]

I use a K12 as my keyboard Monitor. Loud and clean. LOVE it. The EQ switches on the back are sweet for getting a sound I'm happy with Room to Room. No ear fatigue either like the SRM450 I used to have!

[keys88]

Hey gigman...thought you might have some good advice. I am using a Yamaha

S70XS and a Hammond XK1.

I was considering getting a "stereo in one cabinet" keyboard amp like a Traynor K4 or one of the Motion Sound amps.....but then I read your comments about the QSC powered speakers.

In your opinion is stereo really necessary? Could I get away with 2 QSC K10s...use one on small gigs and 2 on larger venues.

Any advice is truly appreciated.

 

Thanks

Paul

[perturbo]

2 K10's equal one K20, which is approximately K16 more than a K4.

[frogmonkey]

This thread is stoking the already raging GAS fire I have for K12's or K10's.

 

I'm also an Eon 15 G2 user, and I still think they are amazing. I bought them for keyboard amplification, but they quickly got hijacked for PA mains. We've used and abused them hard for 6 years without a single problem. Together with a QSC powered sub, they make a wicked little PA system!

 

I always hated the hiss, though, as well as the ear fatigue when using them to monitor at home. Also, the odd shape is difficult to pack efficiently in the van.

 

I'm trying to justify getting at least a single K10 as a smaller keyboard monitor- currently I use an old (G1?) grey Eon 15. It's hard to justify because my current rig works quite well. Still... smaller and better-sounding would be nice.

 

I think I'm waiting to hear more reports on how the K10's perform as keyboard monitors. I do have an opportunity right now: The wife-approval factor is off the charts high because yesterday I bought her not one, but two pairs of boots

[GigMan]

Hey gigman...thought you might have some good advice. I am using a Yamaha S70XS and a Hammond XK1. I was considering getting a "stereo in one cabinet" keyboard amp like a Traynor K4 or one of the Motion Sound amps.....but then I read your comments about the QSC powered speakers. In your opinion is stereo really necessary? Could I get away with 2 QSC K10s...use one on small gigs and 2 on larger venues. Any advice is truly appreciated. Thanks Paul

 

"Necessary" is a relative term... of course stereo is not really necessary - as in, you can make sound w/only one speaker cabinet or one monaural amplifier... christ, guys have done it for years: my dad used to play a Wurlitzer 200A on gigs - thru it's own cheesy mono built-in speaker. Then he bought a Ampeg B15 amp, much better, fuller sound but still mono...

 

The thing is today's modern keys, like the Yamaha S70XS, have so many nice stereo patches - particularly the multi-sampled, multi-layered acoustic piano sounds - that playing them thru a stereo rig really does sound "better" than mono one, it's just a fact.

 

If you're looking at the QSC K10's - my suggestion is get a pair & use them as a stereo pair, along w/a small mixer. Chances are you will like it... they have a small footprint if you put them on the ground, surrounding you like stage monitors - so you could still use both on smaller gigs, just turn them down a bit... and in larger venues, you can crank 'em up a little since they have the power/headroom you need.

 

And when you are using active PA cabinets for a kybd. rig - you can always give up one in a pinch if there's some kind of PA emergency and it's needed for a stage monitor or one of the mains goes or something...

[GigMan]

This thread is stoking the already raging GAS fire I have for K12's or K10's. I'm also an Eon 15 G2 user, and I still think they are amazing. I bought them for keyboard amplification, but they quickly got hijacked for PA mains. We've used and abused them hard for 6 years without a single problem. Together with a QSC powered sub, they make a wicked little PA system! I always hated the hiss, though, as well as the ear fatigue when using them to monitor at home. Also, the odd shape is difficult to pack efficiently in the van. I'm trying to justify getting at least a single K10 as a smaller keyboard monitor- currently I use an old (G1?) grey Eon 15. It's hard to justify because my current rig works quite well. Still... smaller and better-sounding would be nice. I think I'm waiting to hear more reports on how the K10's perform as keyboard monitors. I do have an opportunity right now: The wife-approval factor is off the charts high because yesterday I bought her not one, but two pairs of boots

 

frogmonkey - if you've got "wife-approval" (to buy new gear) then you're a fool if you don't cash in on it - immediately...!?

 

Funny, I've had my EON15 G2's 7.5 yrs. and it's same deal - I bought 'em for a killer kybd. rig & liked 'em (though the hiss was a little annoying) but wound up getting the Motion Sound KP200S and relegating the EONs to PA duty. Now I will relegate them to stage monitor duty and use the K12's as mains, on gigs where I supply the PA, which isn't that often... and on gigs where I can just show up w/my keys and an amp, I'll use the K12's as a killer stereo kybd. rig! - - and they have ABSOLUTELY NO HISS

 

I have heard those old grey EONs - one of the schools in the school district where I work has 'em... yuch - I think if you're using that as a kybd. monitor, you're doing yourself a disservice. Get a pair of K10's or K12's while you have B]"wife-approval" dude!

[frogmonkey]

"wife-approval" dude!

 

Naw, those old grey Eons aren't that bad! They don't have the power of the G2's, and they only have an xlr input, but I don't think the sound quality is much lower than the G2.

 

Now that you mention it, though, I'm going to have to try an x/y test and find out.

 

Last night at a benefit show, I learned that the local music store has the K10's and 12's! So today I went in to check them out. They were sold out of the 12's But I did play a Korg SV-1 through a single K10 to see what it could do. Very nice! And as you said: no hiss. I worried that a 10' speaker wouldn't have enough bass, but it was perfectly adequate for bread-and-butter playing. And "deep" mode actually sounded pretty damn good, like if it were a solo gig.

 

I didn't buy it, though. I'm going to wait until they get the K12 back in, so I can try it first. The smallness of the 10 is very appealing, but I don't know if it has enough power to be my keyboard monitor when faced with a guitarist playing through a Fender Twin. I can't bring two-- the idea is to *shrink* the rig

 

I did hear a K12 in action last night, though. One of the other bands at the benefit had the sweetest rig. A K12 on top of a big rotating Motion Sound, amplifying a 2-manual XK3c pro, a PC3, a Little Phatty, and a controller/powerbook. I stood behind the mains and enjoyed his stage sound very much.

[wheresgrant3]

I have been absolutely drooling for a pair of K-10's... until I saw these:

 

EV ZXA1 announced at Namm

 

 

[GigMan]

I'm sure the K12 is a better speaker... but for the price and size I may opt for a pair of these.

 

yah but Grant, they only have an 8" woofer - I'm thinking that's not going to move enough air, enough if you have a pair of 'em...

[wheresgrant3]

 

Listen to them side-by-side first. The K12 are clean and LOUD. The specs say max 131db SPL for the K12. I have my doubts about the new ZXA1 because EV isn't being so open about RMS specs of the amp for each driver. The ZXA1 spec at 123db SPL indicates that the K12 is getting about six times the output power (or better driver efficiency). The Behringer B212D spec is 125dB SPL and retails for $280. The EV is in a higher class than Behringer, so I would be looking to see whether it performs significantly louder than the B212D and closer to the K10 in a side-by-side comparison in real life. I don't trust the specs from any of them, so I only started recommending the K12 after I used it and heard its performance to validate the specs. I also own a pair of the older Behringer B212A, which I have no problem recommending for durability and performance in its price range. I got the B212A for $175/ea on sale, and I use them as monitors or mains when I don't want to risk more expensive gear. I have a separate cheap/beater PA rig for backup and to lend out to friends who know I have a PA, since I don't lend out my primary gear to anybody for any reason, no exceptions. I've got no problem sending out the B212As to the company picnic event or whatever.

 

 

I LOVE QSC gear... and I'm a Fan of the K series... but they have been misrepresenting the specs on their speakers as well. The K12 1000 watts... It's more like 600 watts... 500 watt sub and 500 watt HF driver compressed to 100 watts. Think about it. If the HF and LF drivers were rated the same the HF driver would peel the paint off a pickup truck. Still I think the K series is a great buy... specs are stuff marketing departments tout... they don't relate to speaker performance live onstage. Still the K series is awesome. The 1000 watt claim is just not technically true.

 

I'm not comparing the ZXA1's to a K12... but in terms of price, weight, it certainly an attractive option. I'd have to listen to them side by side. I'd rather run a pair of well powered active monitors at my feet in stereo than a single larger speaker in mono.

[mate_stubb]

Here's the thing. Watts are an almost completely meaningless measure of quality in powered speakers.

 

It's hard to let go of this, because of our long conditioning.

 

But you can have a 1000 watt amp (measured by one of whatever half dozen systems you like) poorly mated to its speaker components and sound like crap.

 

A 500 watt powered speaker may be louder and cleaner than the 1000 watt one.

 

Think of it as a closed box. All that matters is: Box A can produce X maximum SPL at no more than Y distortion levels over a frequency range of F1 to F2 with no more than plus or minus P dB variations.

 

From what I have heard in particular about the QSCs, it is more economical for them to put the same 500W amp in both top and bottom sections even though it is overkill for the tweeter, than it is to engineer, build, and stock parts for a separate treble amp. But again, watts don't really matter!

 

The only other measure of a powered speaker that is slightly interesting is the input sensitivity. This will help you figure out if your keyboard is hot enough to drive the speaker to its full output without having to add a mixer.

[wheresgrant3]

 

While it's very true that HF drivers are far more efficient and need much less power to produce the same SPL as LF drivers, this doesn't have to be done by overrating the amp. It can be done in the EQ for the DSP. SPL matters a lot more than watts, and in this case, the K12 perform in a manner representative of their watt rating. I would too would be interested to see if the ZXA1 perform well, because their SPL rating seems to indicate lower efficiency or lower power to be about -9dB vs. the K10/K12. I've had lots of good experience with EV in the distant past, so I'm not against them. My doubts are based mostly on the 20lbs weight, small driver, and what seems to be an overly high rating of the watts, without EV stating whether those are peak, RMS, continuous, program, etc. A youtube video with a mic shoved right in front of the speaker doesn't give a very good representation of how well the bass will carry into an audience. I would be very concerned that it might perform more like a near field monitor than a PA should do for the low end bass. I think the K12s needs the bass boost when you don't have a sub. It would be great if the performance of the ZXA1 is good, since having another quality manufacturer at that price point will serve to drive more price competition. EV has been rather expensive recently, with the ZXA5, for example.

 

 

My mistake.... I'm considering the ZXA1's for monitoring keys. Just near field monitoring. I would never consider them to amplify a band or keys from a backline into an audience. I have a Traynor K4 which I use for monitoring keys as well as mixing, however we may add a seocnd keyboard player to the band and I may loan him the K4 and pick up the ZXa1's to monitor myself in stereo. I have a line mixer collecting dust.

 

Certainly if I were in need or main FOH speakers I would consider the K-12's. We use Yorkville EF 500p's and LS 800P subs and the combination is killer. The K12's are a comparable product. But they would be overkill for me to use as stage monitors for keys.

[meomark]

I have 2 each of the K12's and K10's. (traded my EON's). tried both combinations of 2 K12's and 2 K10's. I like running in stereo with the left channel (lower freq's) to the K12, right Channel to the K10. Both switches set flat and Deep mode off (too much competition w/Bass Guitar). This combination cleans up the midrange frequencies. Vocal monitor send to the K10 2nd channel. I even plug my iPod into the RCA's for break music. Direct outs to FOH. I've played thru everything in 30yrs, starting w/Acoustic bass rigs. The K10/K12's are expensive but blow away everything else. I play a PC3 and a Korg Trition Le thru this rig. JM2CW http://www.myspace.com/meomark

[GigMan]

I used my K12's on their 1st gig Friday night w/a bar band, as a stereo keyboard rig, running my Yam. S90ES and Korg Triton LE in stereo thru Mackie DFX6 to them... wow - great sound, plenty of power, lots of compliments. Even the drummer could hear it from behind his kit...

 

Ran Main Outs from the DFX6 in stereo to the K12's (mic. cables from the DFX6 Main Outs, very convenient) & also a line from my mixer's Aux. send to the main PA (in mono), for a touch of keys in the Mains but probably could've even lived w/out that - that's how full and clear the K12's sounded.

 

I had them at my feet, in front of the legs of my Quiklok x-stand - slightly turned the crowd so they actually worked as both stage monitors and putting the keys out to the audience.

 

I probably could've gotten away w/just the K10's instead - I may invest in a pair of them down the line, smaller footprint. But overall, a great experience for their 1st ride!