Outdated pro level keyboards VS New entry-level keyboards

[pogo97]

Sound aside, if you ever find a Kurzweil MIDIBOARD, grab it. Late eightiesish Gorgeous action, some very useful midi thingums and some nice action-adjustment sliders. And (sound horns) poly aftertouch which, for pads especially, is Aphrodite's pubic hair.

 

No sounds; just MIDI output. I use it as a controller for Pianoteq and I'm very happy. And for pads in Logic's ES2. Except for the weight.

[Nismology]

Here is a revised version of my initial post:

 

Basically, I want to get a 61 key keyboard to take with me to university in September. Firstly I need something smaller then my 76 key casio, but I would also like an upgrade in the sound department. Said keyboard also need to be a competent midi controller. I dont need a sequencer. My budget is

[ChristianRock]

I have a Fusion and I recommend it if you're going to work on your sounds. The potential is there, but most presets (especially acoustic instruments) are not up to par.

If you want something that sounds good out of the box and play presets, your other options are better.

Me, I liked my Fusion enough that I sold my Roland Fantom XR with two expansions.

[psionic11]

Bump for the Fusion again. If you like delving into a keyboard and learning to harness its power, you'll like the Fusion's great flexibility -- open-ended expansion of the rompler/multisample engine, good-sounding drums, FM, VA, plenty of fun "groove mixes"... yes, the actual price is that low, and it is a fully-fledged workstation of the 2000-2005 generation that you can learn to grow into. If you're not so much into learning, but more into getting on with producing, that may be a different story depending on your approach.

Still, if you can grab a Motif 6 for the same price, you get a lot of the same features, with a more mature if somewhat limited rompler engine. The FX are nicer than the Fusion, it's got more knobs/sliders and better MIDI controller integration, and it still has expansion capabilities for more bucks later down the road. It's arps are abundant and useful, not sure about tweaking sounds for a custom electronica sound, but the acoustic emulations are great. A songwriter's tool, for sure.

Yes, I'm the premier Fusion fanboi, but if I had a choice for a Motif 6 or a Fusion 6 for the same under $400 price, I think I'd go with the Motif. (Esp considering I have a Fusion 8HD anyways, lol)

EDIT: if you're a musician who values expressive capabilities, do not get a keyboard without aftertouch. Also, the polyphony count of the Motif 6 may not be great, but should be more than ample for what you're looking for. Fusion or Motif 6, can't go wrong.

[rAC]

Ok another that sayes look at the old Kurzweil's - remember their latest (PC3K) is a product that allows their previous sampling stuff to be used withtout the lead worries of the EU now ( backwards compatibility anyone?? better than most).

[airship71]

I know where you're coming from with the "older pro board vs. newer entry-level board" deabte. I am doing the same thing right now. I currently have a Roland XP-30 with the Keyboards of the 60s and 70s and Vintage Synth boards, and it has a lot of great patches. But it doesn't sound as "hi-fi" or as beefy as the newer synths -- there's a thin, compressed character to it that I can't escape.

So, even though it is extremely versatile and I have a lot of fun with it (and have come to love the keybed and the aftertouch, which I have never had before), I still find myself considering getting rid of it in favor of something newer.

I also wish it had either a sequencer or some kind of rhythm generator, and also wish the arpeggiator were more complex.

[ChinaMoBro1]

I know where you're coming from with the "older pro board vs. newer entry-level board" deabte. I am doing the same thing right now. I currently have a Roland XP-30 with the Keyboards of the 60s and 70s and Vintage Synth boards, and it has a lot of great patches. But it doesn't sound as "hi-fi" or as beefy as the newer synths -- there's a thin, compressed character to it that I can't escape. So, even though it is extremely versatile and I have a lot of fun with it (and have come to love the keybed and the aftertouch, which I have never had before), I still find myself considering getting rid of it in favor of something newer. I also wish it had either a sequencer or some kind of rhythm generator, and also wish the arpeggiator were more complex.

 

 

 

I felt exactly the same years ago, and that's why I sold mine. I thought XP30 was not meant to be pro level board, but a stripped-down version of XP50/80. It had 3 jv-sr exp built in , tho.

[Strenge]

You may be able to find a Motif 6 for around that price range. It's keybed is amazing, it sounds great, is a great controller, and is sturdy as all hell. (snip big motif pic) Oh, but to answer your question...old pro keyboards (in good shape) are a better bet than new budget keyboards. They're usually more reliable, better built, and have better keybeds (since you'll ultimately use it as a controller anyway).

 

I had a similar decision and went in this direction. I have not regretted it one bit. I was weighing the Korg m50 vs x50 vs Roland juno, and ended up with a pristine Motif classic 6. It feels better made than any of the above. Sound-wise it's not going to light up the world with analog synth sounds but pianos, epianos and (to a lesser extent IMO) organs are certainly fine. The keybed is fantastic. It's heavy, which is not so fun for carrying, but it won't go flying off a stand either (I felt the x50 would slide off if you breathed on it).

 

I'm paranoid about older gear, so anything before 2002 or so was getting into my iffy range. Once again this was about right, it's not so old that I'm all that worried about it but I've certainly let others take the depreciation. I picked mine up for around $600.

 

EDIT: I've also found this thing very easy as far as editing and setting up performances. Granted, I haven't tried to make any custom sounds with new samples...I like the fact that there are many dedicated buttons and not just one "super wheel" or somesuch that does all the selecting. My old Roland JX10 was like that (until I bought the external editor of course ). I have many four-part splits and layers and I've found it quite easy to navigate.

[gzurkan]

Going through the same issue. I'm trying to replace my old Roland XV-88 (fully expanded w/SRX-11, SRX-12, SR-JV Vintage synths & SR-JV - Keys of 60s/70s). It has served me well but it's having button issues, keybed worn etc. At first I got the Kurz PC3 - could not connect with it...low output, did not like UI/navigation so I returned. Got the Korg M50-88 which I'm liking but build quality concerns me. I have most of my programs/combis matched up to the XVs but alot of sounds just sound better on the old Roland.

I couldn't afford the M3-88 or equivalents so I feel like I'm left with something that seems entry level. I plan to get the XV-3080 (rack version of XV-88) so I can access all my old roland sounds. I will have to treat the M50-88 much more carefully if I want it to last 10 years like the roland.

[akliner]

I even liked the keybed of my Motif 8 over the one on my S90ES.

Does anybody know if they changed keybeds between those two units?

Regardless, if I had to build a rig from scratch, I'd use a Motif classic as a controller with a bunch of racks.

(they should make an M50 rack)

[Nismology]

does anyone know if you can load Yamaha S80/CS6X sounds onto the motif? The reason i was considering the CS6X in the first place was because of this audio demo by JayB:

http://jayb.ath.cx/S80/S80Arrangements.mp3

BTW, I do like/play a wide variety of music (not just trance), and I am a proficient player (I have grade 8 distinction in electronic keyboard... don't laugh )

The motif seems very nice...

[akliner]

I've always found I like Korg workstations better for trance/dance/-ance sounds and Yamaha Motif-family products better for piano-oriented things.

Roland does everything 'OK', in my opinion. In contrast, Yamaha and Korg do certain things (different from one another) really well and certain things pretty poorly.

This is why I own an S90ES and a Triton Extreme.

[piano39]

I'm reviving this thread because I just had to make the same decision.
In my case, I was going to buy a Yamaha MO6. New, they go for $1099 everywhere. On ebay, you can pick one up for $700 or $800.

The MO6 appealed to me because it had the same soundset as the Motif ES. I went to Sam Ash and played the MO6 and loved the sounds.

Long story short, I just bought a used Motif ES on ebay, for about $950, including shipping. This seems to be about the going rate. I am blown away by this thing.

The keyboard has maybe the best action that I ever played on a synth, and includes aftertouch. This alone is worth the extra ducats.

It also is far more expandable, and has sampling, tons of other features that the MO6 series lacks. I am really getting into the sequencer, which I suspect is more capable than on the MO6/8

Here's the downsides to the Motif: Steep learning curve- even simple patch selection requires studying the manual. Also, I bought this thing to gig with. I'm afraid too take it out. It's way heavier than a MO6, and will require a substantial gig bag. It's very pretty and awkward to carry. This thing will be all banged up after a year.

[workstation M.I]

Check your local craigslist for a fire-sale MO 6.

It has the sounds plus versatility when you hook it up to a 'puter.

[Gribs]

FYI I saw Epica play live last weekend and Oliver Palotai (probably most known as the keyboardist for Kamelot) was sitting in for their regular keyboardist Coen Janssen (who decided getting married and family was more important than continuing a very long tour). Oliver had nothing on stage with Epica but an ES7 and a laptop - very sparse.

 

[Boxed]

I've got a Korg Triton ProX that has fantastic keybed and great sounds etc. The sounds (especially pianos) are a little dated though. I now have a Kurzweil PC3 but I still use the Korg as a controller. For

[Stabby]

What do you mean when you say a piano sounds dated?

[pogo97]

What do you mean when you say a piano sounds dated?

 

 

it means that it sounds even less like a real piano than the current digital pianos

 

(that's not so bad, really, unless you're a fanatic about it sounding just like the Steinway in your garage)

[Gribs]

I think the non-realistic sounding and/or heavily processed pianos on UK's Danger Money album sound pretty cool. Then again, that is how the album has always sounded since my vinyl copy is about 30 years old. I just upgraded to the CD recently - finally re-released.

[Boxed]

 

it means that it sounds even less like a real piano than the current digital pianos (that's not so bad, really, unless you're a fanatic about it sounding just like the Steinway in your garage)

 

I see... So it never sounded like real piano in the first place?

 

 

Instruments don't get dated. Even multi-sampled ones shouldn't, if they're well programmed with variations and layers. In the context of the mix no one could tell a real piano from a sampler.

[pogo97]

in a mix, you can get away with a lot

 

and, of course, nothing played through speakers can sound like a real piano unless that piano is played through speakers--but our ears are pretty forgiving that way, too

 

I use Pianoteq and it's very good. But I'd be content to use something 'lesser' live if it meant setting up just one board rather than my current two boards and a laptop.

[psionic11]

Instruments don't get dated. Even multi-sampled ones shouldn't, if they're well programmed with variations and layers. In the context of the mix no one could tell a real piano from a sampler.

Err... what?

It's very obvious to date something.

-- 20's ragtime piano
-- beta-version Pianoteq piano
-- 90's Ensoniq's 'perfect piano'
-- The Korg M1 piano
-- Beatles-era piano
-- 76rpm-era piano
-- Duke Ellington piano
-- Scott Joplin piano
-- '90's Moby-style piano
-- Ivory piano
-- 80's in-your-face reverb piano
-- '70's fusion piano
-- '70's tv show piano
-- 2000+ tv show piano
-- John Cage piano
-- Rachmaninoff stage-recorded piano
-- Kurzweil 90's piano
-- Yamaha early piano
-- Yamaha recent piano
-- Roland early multitimbral piano
-- Roland recent supernatural piano
-- Alesis nano-piano
-- East West piano
-- Mirage piano
-- the latest Pianoteq piano

The piano has to be the most reproduced musical instrument there is. Those reproductions each bear the signature of the culture and the technology of the moment. Ideally, a piano is a piano. In practice, what is stamped down in the annals of history is a 'dating' of the 'piano' sound of that moment.

Sorry, but I was just taken aback by the statemtent, and the alcohol flowed through my fingers in a frenzy of typing upon reading this statement...

[psionic11]

in a mix, you can get away with a lot and, of course, nothing played through speakers can sound like a real piano unless that piano is played through speakers--but our ears are pretty forgiving that way, too I use Pianoteq and it's very good. But I'd be content to use something 'lesser' live if it meant setting up just one board rather than my current two boards and a laptop.

Don't we have it so good, now? Hopefully with 2 boards + laptop, you're reproducing the whole sonic spectrum from the 60's to 2010, the boards are split to play several sounds/MIDI channels, and one keyboard is piano action while the other is synth action for lead work...

[soundwave106]

I see... So it never sounded like real piano in the first place?

 

 

Nothing that isn't a piano sounds exactly like a piano to those with discerning ears. Of today's synthesized pianos, degree matters. Most of today's plugins blow the old ROMpler pianos away. Even in ROMplers, it's pretty easy to distinguish between the Korg M1 piano and the Yamaha Motif piano.

 

A lot of ears aren't quite so discerning, though.

[Diametro]

It's more important how you play as well as how you portray the instrument ...

 

However, nothing beats the real deal ... I had a blast recently playing a very nice Yamaha grand every day and night in a cruise ship lounge ... It was the first time I've actually played a nice piano since learning (on digitals exclusively)... The level of expression available was a really welcome surprise ...