the one software package for music creation

[devolition]

Hi,

 

The last commercial music creation software I used extensively was an early version of SONAR, so I'm a bit out of the loop in regards to such software. Lately I've been toying with buying a suitable computer and software with all the functionality of a keyboard workstation and more (I'll provide the keyboard). Mainly this is motivated by what seems to be better sounds available as software for less dollars than what the "uber-workstations" come with.

 

I've been using linux on low end PC hardware for years now, so I'm also not very acquainted with the latest computer hardware. I have the impression that I will get a lot more performance per dollar with PC hardware than Apple hardware, and I've heard that some people actually don't hate Windows 7. So I'm thinking a basic low end PC with a dual core 2+ GHz processor, 7200 rpm hard drive, a couple Gigs of RAM, and an audio interface of my choosing ought be okay. Am I close, or do I need more power? Obviouly more is better, but this is just for hobby use.

 

I'm kind of overwhelmed with software choices. Cubase, Live, and Reason/Record are my top three, I think. I really only want to buy one (fight the GAS), and I want the associated instruments to be flexible and varied enough that using a hardware synth isn't really necessary, but I also want the option of doing so. I know Reason/Record doesn't do MIDI out, which is a big mark against it, but the virtual modular-like approach is appealing. Cubase seems to be the most "mature" of the three, but I don't know that I really need all of its features, especially if another package provides a more preferable workflow. I'm intrigued by Live because the scene/track paradigm is an efficient way for me to develop songs.

 

I want to be able to use sample libraries--which I know little about--of acoustic instruments. Are there certain formats that I should avoid/prefer? It seems each of the three packages have their own flavors of sample packs--is it preferable to buy 3rd party sample libraries over the ones specific to a certain package? IOW, if I were to buy one of these packages, should I go for the most complete offering that includes their sample libraries?

 

I'm also curious about hardware controllers. I know Live has the APC40, and I know there are many alternatives. Do hardware controllers generally intergrate pretty easily for all three? Does one work better with hardware controllers than another?

 

Thanks for any advice!

[Yoozer]

Live and Reason play nice with controllers - really easy to set up and map.

 

Mac or PC is not about bang for the buck - it's the software. If you want to use Logic you have no choice but to go Mac. A computer is more than just specifications - consider a solid case with silenced cooling. My rule is that the only things allowed to make noise in my studio are my speakers.

 

Have you already tried the demos of each? Have you tried Reaper, too?

 

The main sample formats are EXS24 and Kontakt. Ableton's Sampler device can read Kontakt.

[Plink Floyd]

I haven't tried Reaper, but if I was starting from scratch I would. If you don't like it, you're none the worse monetarily.

[J3RK]

Reaper is excellent. It gets better on nearly a weekly basis. It's nice having such active development. You don't have to wait for a year of corporate meeting to decide whether they want to fix something that's causing a problem for you.

 

It's stable, efficient, looks nice, and has some extremely nice features. I'm formerly a Cubase and Logic user. (and I suppose Cakewalk if you go back far enough )

[nice keetee]

Reaper is what you want it to be. All software will require a learning curve.

[Plink Floyd]

 

...Reaper lovery...

 

 

J3RK (or whoever), would you mind being questioned further? I've heard the MIDI implementation is less than one might hope. And, are you locked in to Reaper's plug-ins? Does it have a 'non-propreitary' sample player?

 

 

Thanks.

[angstwulf]

If you were a registered user of Sonar don't forget that you still qualify for update discounts no matter how old your version. I jumped from Sonar 2 to 8. The "light" Studio version is pretty damned capable but the Producer version also includes some pretty powerful softsynths and effects. If I was a software only guy I think that Producer would be everything I would need for music production.

[Gribs]

You might also qualify for a cheaper cross-grade version of software by other companies.

[J3RK]

 

J3RK (or whoever), would you mind being questioned further? I've heard the MIDI implementation is less than one might hope. And, are you locked in to Reaper's plug-ins? Does it have a 'non-propreitary' sample player? Thanks.

 

 

The MIDI implementation is not bad, and is actually one of the areas that they've been improving on in the more recent versions. There are a few things that have a bit of a learning curve. They group multichannel instruments in folders for one. You can have all the tracks displayed just like other packages, it just takes a couple more steps to do it. With a VSTi, you load it, then tell it to build a multichannel setup for it. It builds a folder of tracks, and then you can expand this, and edit them individually (like you would in Cubase.)

 

MIDI timing depends heavily on your ASIO implementation. If you're using an ASIO driver, you really have nothing to worry about, but if your timing is loose (like using a DX driver or some such,) your MIDI timing will be sloppy. I experienced this when I was between interfaces, and wanted to record something with the stupid onboard audio. (fairly obvious that this would be a problem, but maybe unintuitive that MIDI would be so heavily affected)

 

It comes with a suite of its own instruments and effects, and honestly, I've never even touched them. I used to use it for VST synths and effects heavily, and it makes the best use of multiple cores that I've seen in a host. It's easy to set things up, and has excellent automation lane implementation. The easiest I've used, and very fully featured.

 

Now though, I have KarmaFX in it, a few nice effects (Waves and Lexicon) and that's it. I use it mainly to record my analog modular, and then use KarmaFX to fill in some gaps. I plan to pick up another drum synth/sampler (I kind of miss RMV)

 

Anyway, most of the available hosts these days are competent, and it comes down mostly to your style and workflow. I come from a heavy Cubase background, so for the most part Reaper was a very natural transition. With a few exceptions, things are laid out very similarly. (Logic too really.) I've been curious about Live for some time, but since Reaper is cheap, and does everything I need an more (and well too,) I haven't been compelled to explore any other options for a while. I got Logic 9 for my Mac to give it a try, and while it's nice, it didn't really provide anything (other than AU ability) that I couldn't do already. It's now at a friend's house for now.

 

Cubase got a little too bloated for my tasted. I like things concise and small, that do what I need them to do well.

[aymat]

Ive used Reaper before and its quite an impressive application. I think I would have taken the plunge to use it strictly as my preferred DAW of choice but the only thing that keeps me from it is the lack of device mapping for hardware. Granted I haven't used Reaper in a while and this may have changed but without device mapping, I'm simply too tied up in Cubase to work without it.

 

The other thing missing is a set of dedicated midi tools. Cubase has a pretty extensive list of midi tools that I use on a daily basis with my hardware and I cant bare to think how I could manage without them.

 

The curse of most DAWS is that once you invest so much time into them, its very difficult start your workflow from scratch by investing time in another. Definitely find what is most important to you in terms of workflow and features before you make a final decision. I personally don't need 90% of what Cubase has to offer... but that 10% is a goddamn monkey on my back.

[devolition]

Lots of good points!

 

Reaper sounds pretty nice. I'll take a closer look before I decide.

 

I've tried demos of Reason and Live but years ago, each when they were relatively new. I haven't tried anything recently because I don't have a suitable computer to do so. That's why I also asked about hardware.

 

I'm not too picky about computer noise. Quiet fans and a little hard drive chatter are okay with me. I'm currently using a case from a Dell Dimension 2400 I was given. It has one system fan and one power supply fan that are quiet enough sitting under my desk.

 

The question of Mac or PC is relevant because I'm only buying a new computer for music. If not for music I would only buy new hardware piecewise when what I have breaks. So, if I were to go for Logic I would have to spend at least several hundred dollars more on hardware, assuming that a low end PC is really suitable for the software I'm looking at. I have thought about getting a Mac Mini, but the amount of failing logic boards after only a couple years and the cost to replace one makes the idea seem pretty ridiculous to me.

[devolition]

Reaper is looking pretty good. The price is certainly good. It seems then that I would have to find every virtual instrument on my own. I'm looking at Kontakt 4 and wondering how many virtual instruments I could actually run at the same time. 1000 instruments in 43 GB means an instrument is around 43 MB on average. So then, does that mean around a dozen tracks of virtual instruments would consume 0.5 GB of RAM plus whatever Reaper uses to play the tracks, or is there a significant amount of overhead for each sample? Would I wish I had more than 2 GB of RAM?

[deaf dunderkwac]

The number of virtual instruments (vsti's) are mainly limited by the cpu power and not by ram (with a couple of exceptions)

On my modest AMD dual-core I can run 1-60 vst instruments depending on the implementation of the vst software. ymmv.

Ram limitations mainly affect sample sets and their sample players depending on how the daw software handles virtual ram. Mine chokes on single sample sets over 100M yet I can run multiple sample sets far exceeding 100M if each sampleset is smaller than 100M.

sigh -'tis an older daw that I have too much time invested for me to consider something more modern.

[rosebud]

I've been using Logic for the last few years and I used to use Cubase quite a bit back in the day. I would suggest trying the Reason/Record combo as a substitute for a hardware workstation. I had lost interest in Reason as of version 4 but, having tried it together with the Record demo, I'm having a blast. It has a great workflow, and the mixer and improved routings open up lots of possibilities over Reason alone, not to mention the audio capabilities and timestretch features. If I need VST plugins, I can rewire into Logic. Just ordered a quad core 27 inch, iMac and a copy of Record to go with. Highly recommended.

[Cygnus64]

 

Reaper is looking pretty good. The price is certainly good. It seems then that I would have to find every virtual instrument on my own.

 

 

Correct. FWIW, Sonar 8.5 comes with a boatload of vstis, some of which are pretty decent. Dimension has a ridiculous amount of patches, some are quite good (unfortunately it lacks in the keyboard sounds). It also has some very good audio tools (reverb and a channel strip). It's come a long way since the early days and is definitely a serious contender lately.

[soundwave106]

Reaper is good, and is what I use. You get a nice price and a bunch of nice features.

 

You also get a lot of nice quirks -- I still don't find the MIDI nice enough to not use FL-Studio as a VSTi for more extensive MIDI stuff. There are also a few annoyances (punch-ins and track freeze come to mind) but you find this on all DAWs...

[Plink Floyd]

...learned discourse...

 

J3RK, thanks for the info! I appreciate the effort; very helpful!

[The Pro]

 

If you were a registered user of Sonar don't forget that you still qualify for update discounts no matter how old your version. I jumped from Sonar 2 to 8. The "light" Studio version is pretty damned capable but the Producer version also includes some pretty powerful softsynths and effects. If I was a software only guy I think that Producer would be everything I would need for music production.

 

 

I finally upgraded from Sonar 2 to Sonar 8.5 Producer (a $250 upgrade) with Windows 7 and I love it, but it does take some serious horsepower. If it weren't for the fact that I needed something with both VST capability and the ability to interface with all my studio synths, I would have gone with Reason/Record and a controller. I have Reason 4 and considering that I now have Sonar 8.5 I just don' think I need Record... but if I was running a one-controller-plus DAW setup it would be Reason/Record all the way.

[plaid_emu]

 

I have thought about getting a Mac Mini, but the amount of failing logic boards after only a couple years and the cost to replace one makes the idea seem pretty ridiculous to me.

 

 

I've been using an Intel MacMini I bought in 2006 for the last few years. A little over a year ago I swapped out the old 1.5 GHz Core Solo CPU for a 2.33 GHz Core 2 Duo I bought on Ebay for a couple hundred bucks. Also replaced the old system drive with a 7200 RPM Hitachi HD and it's a bitchin little machine. I use it with an RME Fireface 400 @ 64 (sometimes 128) samples and there's no noticeable latency whatsoever. I've been quite satisfied with mine.

[devolition]

The three R's are winning in mind: Reason, Record, and Reaper if I decide I need MIDI out and other instruments.

 

Does anyone have a favorite knob/slider/pad control surface specifically for Reason?

 

Does anyone have a negative opinion about Reason sample libraries?

[Plink Floyd]

...I finally upgraded from Sonar 2 to Sonar 8.5 Producer (a $250 upgrade)...

 

I don't relish the idea of learning a new interface (Reaper). So I'll probably lay out the upgrade fee for Sonar. It's probably worth it just for all the good plug-ins that are included.

 

Now, if only they would have a sale...

[angstwulf]

I don't relish the idea of learning a new interface (Reaper). So I'll probably lay out the upgrade fee for Sonar. It's probably worth it just for all the good plug-ins that are included. Now, if only they would have a sale...

 

Wait until Autumn. Every year it's the same: the leaves fall, the days get shorter and Cakewalk teases us with a for a few weeks with discounts right before that game changing new version of Sonar comes out.

 

It's not a great discount but at least with the Studio version it was cheap enough for me to go for the upgrade rather than buy a license for Reaper. Still, I have a few friends who had no problem with Reaper and now love the hell out of it.

[daniel_b]

+1 for Reaper. It's the only program I use.

 

Everything is recorded in Midi both on softsynths and hardware synths, and to be frank I am not sure what people are missing. It certainly does the job for me, and it gets more powerful practically week by week.