Kurzweill PC 361 (sell it or throw it in the river!)

[NuSkoolTone]

You can routinely find the PC361 for under $1800 usd on ebay, which is a steal IMO. Maybe that's expensive? Last time I checked, this is in line with Motif XS6 and Fantom G6 prices on ebay as well.

 

 

Yah so? I Wouldn't pay that for one if it was new!

[Thorhead]

That's great, but not interested in programming to get the Bread & Butter sounds to be (IMO) playable. Can't you hook up that box to anything that receives sys ex? It's cool, but I'd rather there just be at least a COUPLE of knobs on the board to work with! That is certainly a LOT better than what I heard/played when I tried one. It still sounds a touch canned to me, but quite usable. So I'll take the VA1 comments back. You're kidding right? I couldn't stomach the whole thing, but if we're talking about the ability to use real time control via sysex to a workstation it's been available for DECADES. If it's something else, forgive me it just wasn't interesting enough to watch through. Really? Again are you serious? If you can't tell the difference between autotune and a vocoder (While we're at it a talkbox) I don't know what to tell you. Yah so? I Wouldn't pay that for one if it was new!

 

 

I want to know what synths you got, because workstation with "better" piano sound than kurzweil is possibly only the motif XS.... Fantom X is certainly not even close, especially if you factor in the very nice reverb that can be used. And of course 2000 dollar computer with 1000 dollar piano library and 500 dollar sampler is going to sound much better.

 

The synth department sounds "canned" because of youtube extreme compression. And also the synth presets on the board totally stink, kurz made BAD mistake by not programming them, but are coming with more in the next OS update. The problem is not the synth sounds are bad, its just that they are not there. Even most of the pad sounds on the synth is done with string sample etc. I guess they ran out of time and just squeezed the VA1 in. That would also explain why there is no "VA-1" bank button, which obviously is very bad for marketing of the PC3.

 

Only the keyboard stuff is well programmed anyway, and even they have unused sliders a lot... 8 sliders is not much, so I agree that there is no excuse for kurz to not make them do something!

 

SO yap, the kurz does suffer a bit from programming fail, but as far as the synth itself goes, only the brass is something that I would never use. (plus the obvious = guitars).

 

Poserp meant that autotune is used much more than vocoder.... and thats true.

[no eats yes]

This thread is seriously

[Franz Schiller]

Thorhead, I appreciate your dogged enthusiasm at championing the Kurzweil, but let's face it:

NuSkoolTone and his pal will never, ever, ever like the PC3.

Let's just let him be, and move on.

[NuSkoolTone]

Let's just let him be, and move on.

Nope. Nuskooltone = Hater. At least for the PC3. If it were $1200 I'd say it's great, because that's about what I feel it's worth. Otherwise.....NO.

Anyway......

[Franz Schiller]

If it were $1200 I'd say it's great, because that's about what I feel it's worth.

 

 

Great. On behalf of your "friend", now you should put it up for sale for $1200 right here on the KSS page. One of us will surely buy it.

[poserp]

That's great, but not interested in You're kidding right? I couldn't stomach the whole thing, but if we're talking about the ability to use real time control via sysex to a workstation it's been available for DECADES. If it's something else, forgive me it just wasn't interesting enough to watch through.

 

 

It is something else -- the idea is in the PC3 you can basically create your own custom synthesizers (using various forms of synthesis wired up however you'd like) in a single Program, then use some sort of external midi controller to make it useful (that's the third video). Other synth manufacturers use sysex for controlling their synths, but no one allows you to change the basic layout of the synthesis engine and then set up a bunch of custom controls aside from the Nord Modular. In this particular video I've created a minimoog-ish Program to demonstrate the concept on the PC3. You could just as easily emulate most other hardware synths (the main limiting factor is the number of free CCs to use for controlling things).

 

Also, with the PC3, the right midi controller, and a bit of programming you can get much finer-grained control (i.e., 16383 values vs 128 values) over parameters than you're usually stuck with if you use midi CCs for parameter control (that's the fourth video). That, of course, is built into the midi spec but for various reasons many companies resort to using sysex instead. The PC3 doesn't quite stick to the spec on this -- the CCs designated for low-order and high-order bits aren't all available -- but that level of control at least doesn't require knowing any proprietary sysex. Plus it's essentially available anywhere and for any parameter.

 

I will whole-heartedly own the fact that my videos are nerdy, and I get that there are lots of folks who don't go for that.

 

 

Really? Again are you serious? If you can't tell the difference between autotune and a vocoder (While we're at it a talkbox) I don't know what to tell you.

 

 

I can tell the difference, but the emphasis you put on "modern" covers made me think of all the autotune that I've heard in recent stuff and I though you were confused. A vocoder would be nice on the PC3, but for me the lack of it doesn't make or break the instrument -- that effect is easy enough to do elsewhere (in my case via an Ensoniq DP4 or Record). I don't play out, so I don't need to do it live anyways.

 

Aside from vocoding though, the PC3's effects engine is one of the best (if not the best) available in a hardware synth. It can do synthesis as well, including more than a few tricks that you can't do in VAST.

 

Anyways, I'm a programming nerd so having a lot of flexibility and programability is at the top of my list. That's definitely not true for everyone. In that regard the PC3, for me anyways, is at the top of the heap.

[dreamstasis80]

I own the K2661 and I love the pads, strings, and pianos on board. I recently sold my XS8 and at first I thought I would miss certain things but really other than the big screen and grid based sequencer I don't see what the hype was about. All my analog emulations (Moogs, Arps, Oberheims, Polys) sound better on the Kurz...the pads and "synth-scape" type patches fill up a lot of space and cut through my mixes nicely (I usually mix my Kurzweil sequences with my AKai MPC and my buddy's Little Phatty) Then there's the deep synthesis available with the board, VAST and all, it's definitely worth keeping at it to create ever-evolving sounds.

The Motif is probably a better bet for someone new to synthesis or who wants to have that "let's make an instant hit" feel on hand in the studio (what with it's ten-thousand stock beats, arps, etc.) It is very easy to "dial in" radio sounding grooves and sounds. The sequencer is very user friendly, and a lot of the prests have a "ready-made" sound/use many of which bring to mind popular R&B/Hip-Hop songs. The motif is also a lot easier to get around on then many people have suggested. You've got your EQ, and master effects right there in one of the knob banks and stacking waveforms, compressors and multi-effects to create variations on the presets is pretty simple. The motif only offers 8 layers of depth to it's synthesis however, where effetcs can count as up to two layers!


I think all these people who are talking {censored} will be surprised to see how well the Kurzweil legacy lives on in synth history...I can't tell much of a difference between the Big 3 (Yamaha, Korg, Roland), or there is a very small margin of differences...I think the Kurzweil sound is a truly inspirring and full of character which is important to me....only time will tell which of the industry leaders will seek to up the ante in terms of performance...with the PC3K around the corner to bust up the competition who knows?

[NuSkoolTone]

The Motif is probably a better bet for someone new to synthesis or who wants to have that "let's make an instant hit" feel on hand in the studio (what with it's ten-thousand stock beats, arps, etc.) It is very easy to "dial in" radio sounding grooves and sounds. The sequencer is very user friendly, and a lot of the prests have a "ready-made" sound/use many of which bring to mind popular R&B/Hip-Hop songs. The motif is also a lot easier to get around on then many people have suggested. You've got your EQ, and master effects right there in one of the knob banks and stacking waveforms, compressors and multi-effects to create variations on the presets is pretty simple. The motif only offers 8 layers of depth to it's synthesis however, where effetcs can count as up to two layers!

I know this wasn't necessarily directed at me, but I'll answer anyway because I'm sure others feel the same way:

I've been programming synths for over 20 years, and as indicated above I'm certainly not afraid of keyboards/computers or technology.

That said, the result has to be worth the effort. Currently the Base sounds of the PC3 aren't much to work with IMO (YMMV), even though the architecture IS fantastic and leaps beyond the competition it's like putting lipstick on a pig IMO.

I think the claims that the Motif doesn't have much programming depth is absolutely SILLY! There is quite a lot under the hood that dwarfs many synthesis engines of the past 10-15 years easily. Is it the most advanced? Certainly not. However is it very capable? Certainly. 8 Layers per voice is nothing to sneeze at. At the Voice level I think the Motif is quite robust. This is not to say it's without it's shortcomings (Things like lack of Osc Sync and Ring Mod come to mind). However the ROM soundset (Onboard Samples) IMO is unmatched by ANY workstation to date. Given the raw material there to work with, the omissions in the architecture are forgivable.

While on that subject, add 1GB (And now recently discovered as much as 2GB) of memory for samples and there's a lot of room to grow and stay current.

The REAL disappointment in the Motif is the whole Performance and Master Mode concept. It totally sucks and is a PITA requiring workarounds. It makes it a PATHETIC master controller for a Live Rig that may have other keyboards/racks to slave. The Lack of Tap Tempo without reverting to an aftermarket footswitch is lame too. The FX Section is also pretty weak. There are a couple of cool things in there, but overall it's adequate and nothing more.

(Still think I'm a fanboi?)

The Presets are a double edge sword. On one hand, there's so many to choose from that are actually pretty darn GOOD that you can find something close to what you have in mind and get going. What sucks is they're not overwritable so if you just want to tweak it or even find a "Better" version of the SAME preset you can't replace it and have to waste one of the precious 384 USER Presets to store it. This is a gripe I've voiced to Yamaha because they put in some presets on the XS that were done BETTER in previous Motifs!

The Motif also has a relative low output and it's a REAL buzz kill when gain staging and matching up with other boards at the mixing board. Part of this is because of the patch programming with VERY (On the verge of idiotic) conservative levels in the amplifier stage of most of the patches, which again you can't overwrite.

So for those who care (And sorry to those who don't) that's the other side of the story and my basis for soem of my opinions.

Ciao.

[Thorhead]

I dont think the sample set is weak, I mean for todays standards it may not be that great, but at least most of the samples are usable. It isnt that much inferior to any other workstation. Remains to be seen what the 64 mb expansion holds (again that is about 128mb uncompressed). Sadly the 128mb expansion probably wont be made.

The FX section is pretty good, but it is unnecessary hard to navigate(the FX presets arent that great and are scattered in no order at all), and lacks some FX (well most of the stuff is there - but for example no parametric EQ). Also the synth doesnt really have 16 inserts, most of the good inserts cost 2-4 of those inserts, some leslie blocks cost even 10! So the number 16 means that the smallest possible FX is 1 block.

[Aanalogaddict]

The REAL disappointment in the Motif is the whole Performance and Master Mode concept. It totally sucks and is a PITA requiring workarounds. It makes it a PATHETIC master controller for a Live Rig that may have other keyboards/racks to slave. The Lack of Tap Tempo without reverting to an aftermarket footswitch is lame too.

 

 

Yep, that (and the s i z e) is what keeps me from the Yammie keyboards. 4 zones?!?! WTF is that??? If only they'd put the sampler in the XSr I'd have bought it immediately, now I'm sticking with my ESr.

 

I love my PC3s. I've been using them for 2 years now, and I don't think I've ever sounded better. I can cover all my gigs with just the PC3 (76) and a V-machine for B3 (much for saving internal FX power), but having several sound engines is very nice. My big rack consists of a Receptor running Komplete 5, Ivory, Scarbee KGB, VB3, Atmosphere, M-tron and loads more of specialised synths, a Nord G2 engine for VA, DX7 and vocoding and the Motif ESr. When I feel the urge, I add another rack with a M1r, a Marion MSR2, a SE ATC-X and a TC reverb. But I can do it all w. the PC3.

[poserp]

...Currently the Base sounds of the PC3 aren't much to work with IMO (YMMV), even though the architecture IS fantastic and leaps beyond the competition it's like putting lipstick on a pig IMO.

 

 

I'm not really after "acoustic" emulations of things, at least not at the moment. For me it's all about the DSP oscillators and synthesis; the ROM could be there or not (although it's useful even if you don't hear it -- the PC3 allows you to "steal" the envelopes of the keymap sounds to use for other things. Also, parameters like sample playback rate are available as control sources...) and it wouldn't really matter to me. I suppose I look at those sounds as being similar to the built-in sounds on any other synth -- I wouldn't necessarily use them to emulate some real instrument, but they could be useful for other things. That being said I really dig the EPs on the PC3, they strike the right vibe for me. I also think there's a lot one could do to the drums between VAST and KDFX to make them interesting (the corresponding keymaps are relatively "dry", which provides a good base for experimentation and individualization).

[morten'J]

It's good there's some examples of VA1 sounds, they sound pretty fine to my ears.

here is more

the bank is ready

[rAC]

Just a minor point on this discussion - the PC3 has 9 sliders not 8 as seems to have been said in the thread.