Yamaha - Wake-Up Call!!!!

[carbon111]

This belongs in the 'polical party' section, but as long as it's been brought up: people put money back into the market when corporations show increased profits. Corporations are showing increased profits nowadays mainly by moving and hiring overseas, cutting wages and benefits, laying people off, and other nasties. Increased profits - yes. Better for the average working person - that's a whole 'nother discussion.

 

This is not political. I was responding to a number of posts above.

Corporations are showing increased profits because people are actually buying their products again. The 'nasty' stuff they do hasn't particularly risen recently. They're as dispicable as they ever were in that department.

 

Keyboard manufacturers wouldn't come out with $3K ticket items unless there was an actual customer base for it. A market. Now that the economy is coming back, there are customers again.

 

I work in manufacturing/metal fab here in the US. Things were fallow for a couple of years but now we're getting big orders again and we've actually hired a bunch of skilled labor recently. Things are changing here "in the trenches" regardless of what the pundits and politicians say.

 

Personally, I'd love to see Yamaha come out with a "modernized" EX5 with all the bells and whistles.

[orangefunk]

 

I don't think it's difficult to use. I started getting really good results with a breath controller in a very short amount of time. It is difficult to edit though. There were 'easy' and 'expert' editors available from windsynth.org years back. The easy one was no problem. But when using the expert editor, it was relatively easy to 'break the model' - resulting in no sound, and also a fair amount of head scratching. You're right though, in that it probably required a bit more effort to get really good results than most people are willing to put in nowadays.

 

 

I got a bit obsessed with VL and expression a few years back, I spent quite a lot of time on my VL-7, but I could never get consistency... too much messing with the headset parameters...

 

It did however change my keyboard playing to a degree... I started to play a helluva lot of chromatic passages with that ECM Tenor sound I found. I didn't really come across many other sounds I liked except for a bank of vintage leads someone here gave me which were just out of this world with Jan Hammer leads, Herbie bass and even some sounds that sounded like they were off Sakamoto's 1000 Knives LP from the 70s.

 

The VL implementation on the PLG was not as nice as the VL-1 and VL-7 though... I had the EX5, MOTIF VL and VL-7 at the same time. The EX5 VL was nice because you could layer it with samples... the brass was wonderful... much better than the VL-7 patches I had.

 

Expressive modelling-wise I also still have my Korg Z-1.. and also my V-Synth GT... kinda miss the VL though.

[NuSkoolTone]

 

About Yamaha's PLG boards and alternative synth technologies: if the PLG boards had been selling like crazy I'm sure Yamaha would have continued with them. Since the original boards date back about ten years the technology was pretty long in the tooth and ready for a reboot anyway. The programming hassles with them were related to being part of the XG product line, I think the addition to pro instruments was a bit of an afterthought. The standalone AN and VL instruments obviously didn't really find their market either. How big a market is there really for alternative synth engines in a single instrument? Kronos will be the litmus test.

 

 

The PLG boards were HORRIBLE! I had an EX5 before they went the PLG route, and I don't care what ANYONE says about them being the "same" the VA stuff was head and shoulders above the PLG boards. Since the EX5 Yamaha hasn't made and REAL attempts to doing modeling on a workstation.

 

I think the alernative engine concept will do well. As long as it delivers when I audition it, I WILL be buying one as soon as it's available.

[Gribs]

I agree with Carbon, that is not a political statement at all, just facts. As I said some companies have even bounced back to the point where they have surpassed their pre-recession numbers. Not only that, but those who had money during the crash were able to buy into stocks that were severely undervalued because they rode the wave down.

 

Anyway, as far as gear goes, the point is that new and more expensive stuff is being released now and Korg was ready to jump in first.

[mildbill]

I had a long response ready, but thankfully, got interrupted, and changed my mind.

 

 

 

 

EDIT: can't resist. Yes, corporations selling more product will be part of the picture. Good to keep in mind though, that the worldwide market is much larger than just the US.

[soundwave106]

This belongs in the 'polical party' section, but as long as it's been brought up: people put money back into the market when corporations show increased profits. Corporations are showing increased profits nowadays mainly by moving and hiring overseas, cutting wages and benefits, laying people off, and other nasties. Increased profits - yes. Better for the average working person - that's a whole 'nother discussion.

 

Yes, it still is a fact that the United States unemployment rate is still very high. But a lot of this lies in a very weak unskilled labor market. If you were in construction for instance you probably still are hurting badly. OTOH from what I see in IT, at least in the .NET / Java development silo where I reside, there is a lot of demand and hiring.

 

And of course, Korg is global; there are growing middle classes in many countries, and countries such as Australia which weren't so affected by the recession.

 

A worse problem, frankly, is the sorry state of the global music industry. I doubt the music industry is shelling out as much cash for gear these days. So Korg has to probably rely more on hobbyists ()

 

I don't see a $3000 workstation as that high of a ticket item though. That tends to be where the top professional workstations have been priced. (Or even higher, as an earlier thread pointed out.)

[carbon111]

Yes, corporations selling more product will be part of the picture. Good to keep in mind though, that the worldwide market is much larger than just the US.

 

Completely Agree. We can discuss it over a beer sometime, my treat.

...though I need to warn you I'm a bit of a bleeding heart liberal...except where money is concerned. How's that for politics?

[mildbill]

[McHale]

It's funny now to watch the MOTIF XF video after knowing what the KRONOS is.

 

http://motifxf.com/

 

[mildbill]

People will still buy the Motif (and lots of other boards), for a whole variety of reasons. Kronos is pretty cool, but not what everyone's looking for.

[DmitryKo]

Considering that KRONOS 61 will cost $3000 in the US, which is 25% more than the Motif XF6 (and maybe be 1.5 times as high as the Motif XS6 which probably is being blown out for under $1800), I see lots of people choosing the cheaper Motif, especially with the current economy. I also see lots of people going for much cheaper Korg M50 61 or Yamaha MO6 and M-Audio Venom combo.

 

So again, the end of the Motif is highly exaggerated. If the KRONOS really catches on and wins strong sales by this Fall or Winter (though I strongly believe it will), and if the sales of the Motif XF end up not as good, then Yamaha will probably have to alter their marketing and pricing. However these things don't happen overnight and the Motif XF would probably enjoy good sales for a few more years.

 

However, I do hope that Yamaha took a serious warning with the release of the original OASYS and considerably enhanced up their development efforts. The Motif XF is obviously a transitional model and probably the last in the series, developed with only "limited resources available", to according to Yamaha US. So there is probably something big going on up there in Japan. But even if not, this is not the end of Yamaha, they are much larger than Korg and have far more diversity. Even if Yamaha next-generation flagship will not be able to match the price and feature level of KRONOS, they could just continue to sell lower-end keyboards like the MO-series and MM-series for quite some time.

[NuSkoolTone]

 

Considering that KRONOS 61 will cost $3000 in the US, which is 25% more than the Motif XF6 (and maybe be 1.5 times as high as the Motif XS6 which probably is being blown out for under $1800), I see lots of people choosing the cheaper Motif, especially with the current economy. I also see lots of people going for much cheaper Korg M50 61 or Yamaha MO6 and M-Audio Venom combo. So again, the end of the Motif is highly exaggerated. If the KRONOS really catches on and wins strong sales by this Fall or Winter (though I strongly believe it will), and if the sales of the Motif XF end up not as good, then Yamaha will probably have to alter their marketing and pricing. However these things don't happen overnight and the Motif XF would probably enjoy good sales for a few more years. However, I do hope that Yamaha took a serious warning with the release of the original OASYS and considerably enhanced up their development efforts. The Motif XF is obviously a transitional model and probably the last in the series, developed with only "limited resources available", to according to Yamaha US. So there is probably something big going on up there in Japan. But even if not, this is not the end of Yamaha, they are much larger than Korg and have far more diversity. Even if Yamaha next-generation flagship will not be able to match the price and feature level of KRONOS, they could just continue to sell lower-end keyboards like the MO-series and MM-series for quite some time.

 

 

I don't think anyone is saying "The End of the Motif", but more the Motif is no longer "Top Dog" (save a few of those PC3 NUTJOBS!).

[ChristianRock]

I'm looking at the sequencer specs of the Motif and I can't find where it says that it has audio tracks. With all that new flash memory, they still can't do audio tracks? For real? 16 MIDI + 16 Phrase tracks (whatever that means), and that's it?

 

Hmmm 3,499 for the Motif XF8

3,799 for the Kronos 88

 

Yes Yamaha should be VERY worried. I'm thinking the XF8 will sell under 3000 in no time...

[Bernard]

Yam XF =

 

low power drain (check it against you know what)

 

If you like how it sounds why look elsewhere

 

Tons and tons of patterns etc

 

The transport switches LOOK like the nice ones on my MV... IE not wobberwii or hard click yuckyness that some other gear cheaps out with (never had a Yam XF so only sayin it LOOKS that way)

 

You can show your friends Berts vids if you can't play it Seriously, although it can behave like an arranger, it sounds a little more hip and modern. All the buttons give control if that's what your into.

 

Yamaha are offering new sounds

 

The WAVE ROM is still very large. Lots and lots of sounds

 

If someone connects with its work flow and is inspired by the overall facilities and set up, why not... better may not be best for them...

 

I don't think Yamaha will drop the price... They are so big they probably don't care that much. It is what it is and if it sells it sells...

 

I am not into the type of sound focus of this kind of ROMpler, but I recall hearing someone sing and play a Yamaha and it's tone seemed to suit that Human voice conventional instrument kind of vibe.. I can see why some may love Yamaha.

 

[ChristianRock]

Seriously, I have never even considered power drain until you started bringing it up.

 

Is that important to anyone at all?

[Bernard]

 

Seriously, I have never even considered power drain until you started bringing it up. Is that important to anyone at all?

 

 

to mankind yes ;-)

[DmitryKo]

 

I don't think anyone is saying "The End of the Motif"

 

 

I believe this has been said several times in the KRONOS thread.

 

 

but more the Motif is no longer "Top Dog"

 

 

Yamaha could probably care less if the Motif still sells - again, this was their semi-official reaction to the release of the OASYS keyboard.

[ChristianRock]

 

They do have audio tracks in the sequencer; technically they call it "Integrated Sampling Sequencer" so this involves user sample waveforms and MIDI notes, however these details are handled transparently by the OS, so you only see audio phrases. You can loop the audio, then automatically slice the audio into multiple fragments containing individual notes, then apply loop remix and tempo change. You can even export the complete song to Cubase using their AI extensions for Motif. The drawbacks are the loading time, the 32 Mbyte sample limit (mono), and the overall limit of 16 tracks (no matter audio or MIDI).

 

 

Hmmm that doesn't really sound like audio tracks... it sounds like MIDI tracks in the sequencer that trigger user-loaded samples rather than ROM samples.

 

Audio tracks is when I record my acoustic guitar, vocals, ocarina etc as part of the song... at least that's how I see it, am I wrong in my definition?

[Bernard]

Yam.com - User Manual - Read - tell us what you find ....... ;-)

[ChristianRock]

Like I said, I didn't see it in the specs, I'm assuming it's not there. My initial post about it was in bewilderment, I wasn't asking for an answer... I already know it doesn't do audio tracks

[ElectricPuppy]

Forgiven.

 

You may pass.

 

[Bernard]

[liliththekitten]

ISS is what they called the sampler section of the RS7000, the UI was brilliant on that I thought, imagine the Motif works the same way.

 

I dont want a workstation with a big keyboard though, just everything else, RS>9000 plox.

[Redhotpoker]

Huh, what the....?

 

 

You can probably move these audio phrases to flash memory as well, however user waveforms need to be assignesd unique names and I'm not sure if this is handled automatically or requires some manual work.

 

 

"Probably-I'm not sure"??

http://www.yamahasynth.com please check the user manuals and then: Shoot the SH_t!!

Why write that 'I' "guess" sh_t about XF at all? Learn facts first, then spout general info later, 'pleaese', that sounds so rediculous coming from folks I thought had a clue, even a small one. Come on, get over it.

Yamaha rocks is rock solid, that's all there is too it. They aren't leaving the game because some other maker developed a fine new model. Motif XF/XS with KARMA.

DiffeRANT strokes for differAnt mediocre folks. 'Peace me off' much!!

Hey wise apples read this reply, to a Motivator user's question, from Yamaha programmer DavePolich:

 

Q. I wonder how Yamaha will respond to Korg in the the short term. They could/should:

 

1. Drastically reduce the price of the Flash and Firewire boards

2. Include additional free content

3. Provide the CP1/CP5 model pianos as a software upgrade (no charge)

5. Reduce the price of the XF series

6. Provide a low cost upgrade to Karma

 

Ans. from DavePollich.

 

Yamaha already provides plenty of free content in the form of Inspiration In a Flash. You can also download Xspand Your World which is even more free content.   A CP1 software upgrade will never happen. That would require a different hardware chip for the XF. You already have plenty of great pianos available from third-party developers anyway..have you checked out the Sonic Reality Rock Grand Piano? 500 MB, and it

[keybdwizrd]

I still have to wonder how many people buy these instruments based mostly on 1) the way they sound, and 2) the price. Period.