Are analog guitar pedals the same deal as synths when it comes to the RA v VA debate?

[johnmoorejohn]

I do not want this to turn into a RA vs VA debate, at least that is not my intention. But I had a recent shift in interest to guitar effects. I have Komplete which includes Guitar Rig 4. I've been playing around with it, and get a lot of sounds I am happy with. But as with VA synths vs a real analog synth, I am wondering if the discrepency for guitar effects are similar or if the discrepency is larger?

 

I heard a few demos of some analog chorus pedals, and there seems to be something different, but I really don't know since I am sort of new to guitar specific effects. I am asking here since as a keyboard player, you all speak my language, and I know there are people here who know both keys and guitars. I browsed the guitar forum here and it just seemed a bit.. 'distracted'.

 

So is there a whole world unavailable to me if I just stick with GR4? Or is investigating analog pedals going to get me somewhere very different that I can't get to with software alone?

[burster]

Yes. Analog pedals have there own sound. Buy some old DOD analog pedals. They sell for cheap on eBay and have that old school "Made in USA" analog pedal sound. Boss pedals are the standard but, usually sell for more.

[pogo97]

My take is more ideological. I haven't enough experience with a variety of effects etc. to know there's a sound difference. When I play keys, I don't really care if the effects are digital because the signal is digital from the start. When I play guitar, I absolutely do not want an effect to convert my lovely analogue signal to digital and back again. I do not care if I can't hear the difference, I just don't want that. I'd feel the same if I was playing a real Rhodes or whatever electric/acoustic keyboard.

[Suilebhain]

Please excuse any overstating of the obvious...

 

With pedals the great divide lies more in stomp boxes vs. rack gear, or true bypass vs. not true bypass.

 

A large proportion of stomp boxes, especially distortion/fuzz, are analog, with the exception of stuff like the Eventide boxes. Time and pitch oriented boxes get a little more mixed. The advantage of stomp boxes over rack gear, of course, is the same as that of analog synths over VA - individual controls with no menu diving. There is also the feel that analog stuff gives you a certain instability that adds to the character of your sound, just like with true analog synths.

 

However, I wouldn't call it a discrepancy, more of a preference.

[FarawayWave]

Analogue/digital - it doesn't matter. Choose the one that puts a smile on your face when you listen to the sound. As an example, I'll share some subjective observation that I've made:

 

In general,

Analogue tape echo > analogue BBD delay > digital delay

 

However,

Strymon El Capistan > analogue BBD delay

 

But

Strymon = 100% digital DSP effect.

 

[girevik]

Usually, the analog vs. digital fights in the guitar world center around delay pedals or amps (digitally modeled vs. tube).

[plawren53202]

 

Analogue/digital - it doesn't matter. Choose the one that puts a smile on your face when you listen to the sound.

 

 

Truth. In guitar world, I drove myself mad for years chasing advice and rumors and the alleged holy grail of perfect tone. I finally followed this advice. Amazing what happened. I sold a whole boatload of pedals and bought a Line 16 M13. Replaced everything but the two things I could really tell a huge difference in: my overdrive and beat-to-heck MIJ Boss CS2.

 

Now with amps, my AC30 responds to my playing dynamics, sustains notes, chimes and jangles like nothing else I have ever personally played. So I spent a few bucks there that were well worth it. But I have spent a lot of time trying really hard to hear differences in supposedly "top notch" gear, primarily because general consensus was that I was supposed to hear a difference.

 

Now with keyboards and synths, I have only been playing long enough to know one primary requirement: I like stuff with knobs.

 

EDIT: Didn't want my post to sound like I was saying that there is no difference in analog vs. digital, cheap vs. expensive, etc. I just meant to say, trust your ears. I have some stuff I spent relatively more on--AC30 with Blues, a Fulldrive II, a MIJ CS-2--beause it was worth it, i.e., my ears could hear a difference. I have some cheap stuff that I love as well. And most importantly, I have tried a lot of expensive/analog stuff that was nothing but hype.

[ChristianRock]

 

Usually, the analog vs. digital fights in the guitar world center around delay pedals or amps (digitally modeled vs. tube).

 

 

Have you used an analog chorus pedal? Or analog flanger?

 

They're wonderful... and you can really hear a difference.

 

I no longer have any digital pedals... I believe the difference between analog and digital is even greater when it comes to guitar equipment.

[Meatball Fulton]

You will find the same "older is better", "analog is better", etc. arguments amongst guitar pedal fans as amongst synth fans. Your ear will have to decide for itself.

 

There is no doubt that for home recording software like Guitar Rig is far more flexible and powerful than real hardware and (like VA synths) can sound great in the mix. I haven't miked up a guitar amp at home for more than 5 years.

 

There's a lot of voodoo and misinformation in the guitar gear space...probably more than in the synth space...as players argue endlessly over the tonal character of particular pedals. The prices some boutique builders charge for simple distortion pedals is mind boggling (as are the prices of rare vintage pedals).

 

If you know anything about electronics you'll discover many of these devices are so simple that the most expensive part is the enclosure :poke:

[girevik]

 

Have you used an analog chorus pedal? Or analog flanger?

 

 

I almost never see guitarists arguing over analog vs. digital chorus or flange, which is one reason why I said the analog vs. digital arguments center around delay pedals and guitar amps (modeled vs. tube). I've never been into chorus or flange - except on delay repeats - so I can't help the OP regarding unique/cool analog chorus or flange pedals.

 

The benchmark product among analog delay pedals that can do modulated repeats is the EHX Deluxe Memory Man. However, the DMM by itself has been the subject of lengthy threads: eg. the "big box DMM vs. DMM XO" debates, "DMM vs. ", etc. It's not uncommon though for guitarists to include both an analog delay AND a digital delay on their pedalboards - oh the humanity!

 

I love my Fuzzhugger AB Synth. It's an analog fuzz pedal. There are lots of unique/cool analog pedals in the fuzz department.

[Gribs]

Supposedly one can can play two signals with immeasurable differences to a guitar player and tell them one is "analog" and the other "digital" and the guitar player will tell you he thinks the analog signal sounds better (this from an EE at work whose brother builds and sells guitar pedals and tube amps online and at select boutique stores in a few cities). The point is that there is definitely some psychology going on. I think a very similar thing happens with pre-CBS Fender guitars and I have lost interest in trying to convince various enthusiasts that the perceived difference is a psychological and not functional or material difference.

 

Personally I like analog and digital effects. I have a mostly analog true-bypass pedal board for guitar (and Moog Voyager too) that I have tweaked to my liking. One of the pedals is a DLS Echo Tap digital delay that I like for crisp hi-fi delays. I also have a Line 6 HD500 which is lots of fun, especially with a guitar having electric and piezo outs into two channels on the device modeling two completely different amp and effects chains. There are very excellent arguments for *not* using a fully true bypass system for medium and large stages at least between certain pedals. Some pedals interact with each other in pleasing and desirable ways and require true bypass to do so, but others are best served by sending a clean and level signal (in particular the front end to an effect chain). Search for writings by legendary pedal board builders like Pete Cornish or Bob Bradshaw.

[cl516]

Adding to what's already been said here...

 

yeah a lot is certainly the same as the RA VA stuff. something i pay attention to, on top of how good the pedal sounds, is whether the specs says it's true bypass or not. either way it doesn't automatically mean one sounds better than the other. also it's good to know whether your original signal will be converted to digital or not. Even Strymon's pedals - some of them the analog signal never gets converted... but a few of them do.

[sprinklerhead]

All depends on what you're looking for in tone. I have analog and digital effects and the ones that I prefer the most are the ones that let me go 100% wet with the signal. I'll also take a digital rack effect over a lot of onboard effects on older digital synths.

[ShaneV2]

At the end of the day there are great examples of both digital and analog effects available today. I'd take my Strymon and Eventide boxes over anything analog for my delays, reverbs, and pitch effects (well okay, that's kind of a freebie for the digital side), but for things like wah, flanger and phaser I've still got my old standby analog boxes.

 

For me the analog vs. digital debate is really best approached as a case by case, pedal vs. pedal issue, rather than a blanket statement of one being better than the other in every conceivable situation.

 

(And FarawayWave, the el Capistan is amazing, isn't it?)

[tim gueguen]

 

Supposedly one can can play two signals with immeasurable differences to a guitar player and tell them one is "analog" and the other "digital" and the guitar player will tell you he thinks the analog signal sounds better (this from an EE at work whose brother builds and sells guitar pedals and tube amps online and at select boutique stores in a few cities). The point is that there is definitely some psychology going on.

 

 

This is hardly limited to guitarists. Blind listening tests of various sorts have produced strong evidence that even trained listeners and musicians are unable to consistently determine whether a violin or cello was made by one of the great masters or is a recently made instrument.

[Citizen Klaus]

 

This is hardly limited to guitarists. Blind listening tests of various sorts have produced strong evidence that even trained listeners and musicians are unable to consistently determine whether a violin or cello was made by one of the great masters or is a recently made instrument.

 

 

And it happens pretty much anywhere else in the field of audio. Before I got into music playing, I was heavily into music listening, in the audiophile sense. If you want to talk quackery...

 

This, in large part, is why I love my digital effects and synths. They sound great, to my ears, and my experience in the audiophile world taught me that it's not worth fussing over whether some more expensive and/or more inconvenient piece of gear *might* sound better, as long as you're happy with what you've currently got. I prefer to upgrade based on feature sets rather than subjective impressions of sound quality.

 

I'll also echo sprinklerhead's comment on rack effects vs. onboard effects in synths, but in a slightly different direction. The GT-10 is certainly no multi-thousand-dollar DSP powerhouse, but I still prefer it over the M3's onboard effects, in certain situations. If I want to make something sound guitar-ish, the GT-10 does the trick far more easily and convincingly than anything I've been able to get out of the M3. (It also makes a dandy foot controller, too.) If only it had a stereo input, rather than just mono...

[veracohr]

What would a "virtual analog" effect be?

 

I've got an Electro Harmonix Poly Chorus, which is like an Electric Mistress flanger that you can switch to an extended range for chorus. It's got a definite unique quality I haven't heard in any digital flangers or choruses (although admittedly I haven't gone out of my way to try tons of different plugins), but it's more limited. I haven't really used it much in a while since I haven't played electric guitar in forever, but if I recall it has kind of a narrow sweet spot, and gets kind of wacky outside that range. With digital flangers and choruses you can go to more extremes before the sound gets unusable.

 

So I guess I could say that it's kind of like RA vs. VA - the analog Poly Chorus has something digital effects don't, but overall digital effects can do more.

 

Last time I used that pedal it was for some weird background noises: I set it slightly beyond the normal useable range (ie. too wide and feedbacky for usual use), plugged my electric-acoustic guitar into it and blew across the strings while fretting semi-randomly.

[DJ RAZZ]

Yes this be true.

[Meatball Fulton]

 

What would a "virtual analog" effect be?

 

 

There's lots of "modeled" digital FX...ever since the POD came along.

[Gribs]

 

And it happens pretty much anywhere else in the field of audio. Before I got into music playing, I was heavily into music listening, in the audiophile sense. If you want to talk quackery...

 

 

Yeah there is still a lot of incredibly funny stuff out there for sale. I see you have a Carvin Bolt in your sig; those are great guitars especially for the money. I own a few myself.

 

One leap in audiophile technology that was important to me personally was digital recording and the CD. I have always liked to listen to all sorts of music and became very frustrated in high school and early college years listening to classical and acoustic guitar (and lute!) music on vinyl. Even with a pretty decent (though not uber high end) Sony turntable and cartridge and decent vinyl and needle cleaning kit I could not overcome the background noise. When I learned about the CD I stopped buying that type of music on vinyl and made a conscious decision to wait for the price to come down. In grad school I spent just about every extra precious dollar on building my classical CD library. It is still pretty small considering, but has a lot of stuff that still holds up well over 20 years later.

[girevik]

 

What would a "virtual analog" effect be?

 

 

Effects that physically model guitar amps (or even classic bass amps like the Ampeg SVT), analog effects pedals, real tape delays - which are not pedals, but devices that use real tape; etc.

 

Line 6 was one of the first to produce modeling pedals - the DL4 Delay Modeler continues to be one of their most popular products, as well as the POD line which models amps and includes effects such as reverb. You've seen Strymon mentioned several times here - they make one non-modeling pedal, and the rest are modelers.

[girevik]

 

I heard a few demos of some analog chorus pedals, and there seems to be something different, b

 

 

Have you heard a demo of this one?

 

http://www.effectrode.com/website/vibra_chorus/chorus_main.htm

 

I read about it in a "Chorus for a guy who hates chorus" thread.

[ChristianRock]

The "Chorus for a guy who hates chorus" is the tc electronics SCF pedal. Expensive and just waaaay too subtle, to the point that I don't even would call it a chorus. I bought one because of the hype a few years ago, and I couldn't keep it for long.

 

On the other hand, that effectrode vibra chorus sounds good but it's just way too much color to the sound... still, for some things it might be cool, but its personality is so strong, it almost demands that you don't use it with other modulation effects.

[girevik]

 

The "Chorus for a guy who hates chorus" is the tc electronics SCF pedal. Expensive and just waaaay too subtle, to the point that I don't even would call it a chorus. I bought one because of the hype a few years ago, and I couldn't keep it for long. On the other hand, that effectrode vibra chorus sounds good but it's just way too much color to the sound... still, for some things it might be cool, but its personality is so strong, it almost demands that you don't use it with other modulation effects.

 

 

It seems like none of Effectrode's demos for their modulation pedals (chorus, phaser, etc.) show any subtlety. Ironically, I read about the Effectrode chorus from a guy who loves to keep it on subtle settings, and leave it on all the time.

 

The Fromel Seraph demos sound quite a bit more subtle - you can still hear when it's on, but it's not as in your face. They are also refreshingly free of bad blues licks (or any blues licks): http://fromelelectronics.com/Pedals/Seraph

[Darkstorm]

Hardware guitar and bass pedals will allways be a bit diff sound and performance wise then a software emulation of them. This includes multi effect bass or guitar pedals. Overall Id stick more to bass guitar effects units for synth rather then guitar ones. Unless you seldom venture into low bass territory. Analog effects pedals can be better then a hardware digital pedal and vice versa. Depends on personal sound pref.