Synth pads: effects, or synths?

[nostalgis]

Hey everyone. I've been using a Kawai K5000W for the past few months, and I believe I've milked a lot of out it already (did WAAAY more than just tweaking the presets!). So now I think I may now want to pair it up with another synth to see how far I could go. However, I really only use synths for ambient pads (a jazz piano guy otherwise), and I've been toying with the idea of simply adding a couple of effects units instead of another synth. For example, I could get something like a Lexicon Vortex (which is, apparently, known for its bizarre effects) and a Korg Kaoss Pad 1/2; and have the K5000W send velocity as MIDI CC to control a parameter on the Vortex, while the X-Y pad from the KP controls two more parameters (whilst using the KP for its effects as well). My question is: is this a better route to take then getting something like, say, a Wavestation, or an FM module like a TQ-5/TX81Z (FS1R is just ridiculously expensive)? Or should I ditch the K5000W, get a Yamaha EX-5, and be done with it?

[Cydonia]

...a Wavestation...

 

This.

[nostalgis]

This.

 

Okay. If that's the case, then I'd probably get an SR; but how does it make up for the missing joystick?

[Cydonia]

A/D is the best and you get a vocoder effect.

[nostalgis]

A/D is the best and you get a vocoder effect.

 

But I've heard that SR is the better one, and something to do with having more banks/patches/whatever. How exactly does the vector joystick work anyway? As in, is it possible to say record the movements of the joystick (as well as the tones assigned at each axis) as a patch?

[Purity_Control]

The vector joystic changes the mix level between the 4 sample oscs in a patch, think a square/diamond shape where each corner is a 50/50 mix of 2 oscs but not the other 2, the centre is an equal mix of all 4 and everything else inbetween is, erm, inbetween

 

I have no idea about sending data from the joystick, but the vector position is modable using vector envelopes designed for that purpose, it's been a while, but I think the vector envelopes themselves may be modable.

 

Also the wavesequencing is very nice, a great favourite of mine was to stack 2 wavesequences panned L/R so that the sequence could change both the sound and the pan position is some pretty complex ways.

 

WS is also really cheap atm, esp. if you hold out for an auction rather than a BIN, which tend to be really quite inflated.

 

Of course, you might decide that you know your current kit pretty well and would rather go for a nice pedal.

[nostalgis]

The vector joystic changes the mix level between the 4 sample oscs in a patch, think a square/diamond shape where each corner is a 50/50 mix of 2 oscs but not the other 2, the centre is an equal mix of all 4 and everything else inbetween is, erm, inbetween I have no idea about sending data from the joystick, but the vector position is modable using vector envelopes designed for that purpose, it's been a while, but I think the vector envelopes themselves may be modable. Also the wavesequencing is very nice, a great favourite of mine was to stack 2 wavesequences panned L/R so that the sequence could change both the sound and the pan position is some pretty complex ways. WS is also really cheap atm, esp. if you hold out for an auction rather than a BIN, which tend to be really quite inflated. Of course, you might decide that you know your current kit pretty well and would rather go for a nice pedal.

 

I understand all of that. I guess I couldn't explain my bit clearly. Let's say that, in a patch on the WS, you can set how much time it takes, at what rate, and by what amount, the mix level changes from one oscillator to another (let's just use two oscillators for now). This can be done by not using the joystick at all. However, I actually want the patch to sound as if the mix level bounces between the oscs in a rhythm I can only define through the joystick (i.e. I can't/don't want to use the buttons or dials to set in the "values"). So I'd want the synth to allow me to record when, where, and by how much the joystick moves; and, uh, "quantize" it into values so it can be saved into the patch. Does that make sense?

[Purity_Control]

Ok, following now.

 

I don't know about recording the joystick movements per se but I can say that you can control the X/Y position of it over midi, and as it's really jut another controller (or technically pair of controllers as X and Y count as a different midi parameter) I'd be very surprised if you couldn't record what you do with it from the WS's midi out - i would suggest to check with someone that's actually tried that just in case this is some weird exeption.

 

You can't save/record anything you do with the joystick into the patch itself because the joystick isn't sending any kind of patch data, it's sending midi controller parameters which the WS can't record.

[nostalgis]

 

Ok, following now. I don't know about recording the joystick movements per se but I can say that you can control the X/Y position of it over midi, and as it's really jut another controller (or technically pair of controllers as X and Y count as a different midi parameter) I'd be very surprised if you couldn't record what you do with it from the WS's midi out - i would suggest to check with someone that's actually tried that just in case this is some weird exeption. You can't save/record anything you do with the joystick into the patch itself because the joystick isn't sending any kind of patch data, it's sending midi controller parameters which the WS can't record.

 

 

Thanks. As far as I'm aware, the Yamaha TG-33 (another synth that uses this vector synthesis thing) does record joystick movements. Anyway, I'll see if I can get a WS A/D for cheap; purchased a Lexicon Vortex for now.

[greaseenvelope]

Vortex is a beast but FYI does not reply to MIDI CCs. You will be programming the unit itself, which is actually fairly intuitive if you can understand all the effects parameters. But the main control input is going to be a tap-tempo button (or footswitch), assignable expression pedal, and the envelope control, as a lot of the effects are controlled by the loudness of the incoming signals. Speaking of loudness, you may wish to find a way to put Vortex in a effect loop with input gain control as it can get unhappy about hot signals. I would make sure only your synth sounds went through it, as I imagine hammering heavy jazz chops on a loud piano patch might make an ugly crackle if the unit or its imput were cranked.

[nostalgis]

Vortex is a beast but FYI does not reply to MIDI CCs. You will be programming the unit itself, which is actually fairly intuitive if you can understand all the effects parameters. But the main control input is going to be a tap-tempo button (or footswitch), assignable expression pedal, and the envelope control, as a lot of the effects are controlled by the loudness of the incoming signals. Speaking of loudness, you may wish to find a way to put Vortex in a effect loop with input gain control as it can get unhappy about hot signals. I would make sure only your synth sounds went through it, as I imagine hammering heavy jazz chops on a loud piano patch might make an ugly crackle if the unit or its imput were cranked.

 

Uh-oh. I didn't know it wouldn't respond to CCs. Oh well...it's a pretty kickass unit anyway (played a mate's one a while ago). BTW, what MIDI-controllable effects processors are there that allow for realtime parameter manipulation through MIDI CCs, like the Kaoss Pad and the Korg AM8000R?

[sprinklerhead]

I have a wavestation SR and from what I've read on various sites, the Yamaha SY22 makes a great controller keyboard for it because they're cheap and have a good joystick. Wavestations are also usually pretty cheap on craigslist, unfortunately I see a lot more wavestations for sale than I do SY22s.

[Cydonia]

The Wavestation transmits any change done on joystick using MIDI CC#16 for x-axis and CC#17 for y-axis at its MIDI OUT, so you could use any software or hardware "recorder/sequencer" to catch your manual movements of the WS joystick in real time, then reproduce them using whatever sync reference you prefer.

[Darkstorm]

My fave synths Ive owned but no longer do, for pads and ambient stuff are: Access Virus KB and Nord lead 2x. Fave synths I own and find great for ambient stuff and pads especially dark ambient type voices is my two current ones: Novation KS4 and Maudio Venom. Novations smoother voice oriented, Venom can do that but is more agressive. grittrier stuff friendly.

 

I do own and use a Korg Kaos pad3. It could certainly be used to add new dimensions to synth voices as well as for some useable synth voices of its own played on the touch pad. But it really requires a fair amount of your hands on it working things to really shine like its supposed to. Though you could create various pad motions which then store and repeat on demand. Personally I most like sueing my Korg kaos pad3 on whole mix for the final mixdown tracks to import kaos effects and some tempo synced synth voices for ambience, basses, and lead fills etc. Getting a 2nd hardware synth thats great for the ambeint add your wanting, and a kaos pad3 to do kaos things to boths synths signals thru mixers send and return wouod be a lovely thing imo though.

[Randyman]

The Korg M3 is known for their pads, and of course the new Kronos will supersize what's already very powerful. On the M3 they have a KAOSS pad type mode, or a vector mode like what was described above, where you can touch the screen and it alters the sound between 2 different axis, both of which you can define (for example, like one axis is for filter cutoff, and the other axis for fading in/out a sound). These motions can be recorded and played back.

[Suilebhain]

The Alesis Photon also makes a good controller for a Wavestation, using the AXYZ Controller.

[nostalgis]

Hey guys. So just a bit of an update:

 

I ended up getting a Yamaha TG-33. Meh. Not all that much fun, to be honest (no filters = major bummer). The Wavestation is probably waaay better, but my experience with the TG-33 has made me a bit wary.

 

So I'm thinking of just waiting for an FS1R to come by my path. Then I'll sweep it off its feet and make sweet love to it...all day long! Seriously though...I got to try out a SY-77 a while ago, and it made me realise that I really REALLY love the FM tonal quality (I didn't mess around with any of the AWM stuff). Loved the pads I could get off it. I imagine the FS1R would be an even bigger treat, with the formant synthesis and all.

 

For now, I have with me my old buddy K5000W, a U-20, a Lexicon Vortex, and a Korg KP-1 (the last one I regret purchasing...should've waited for the KP-3 that went for $75 more ).