Motif ES6 vs Motif XS6- very detailed comparison

[7th]

I got to listen to an XS at GC today. They had it on the stand right above an ES so I was able to compare them directly. I picked the patches that were on both synths and there is a bigger wide open sound on the ES whereas the XS has that smaller or more compressed sound on the patches I compared, some brass, leads, and a few others. I liked the Ethnic selections on the XS, though the synth categories reminded me of the Fantom X, huge selection but not many catchy or usable sounds. There were better selection of synth sounds on the CS6x and yamaha has taken a step back since then. They need better synth programmers, all the focus on natural sounds has left them lagging in the synth department.

[MartinHines]

The Motif XS is bangin. It crushes it's predecessors. I worked with an ES7 for 4 years and recently sold it to get the XS6.

 

 

I thought you had given up workstations since you bought your OpenLabs miKo. Glad to see you can't get away from traditional hardware.

[H-BOMB!!!]

Yes ... and despite my previous plea for details ... nobody's said anything about that so far ... How many patches actually use more than four layers? I fear I won't have the time to slip away to GC tomorrow. I guess it's better during the week, anyway.

 

 

I saw a YouTube vid with that guy Bert (I think from NAMM?) and he mentioned the 8 elements and played an organ patch.

[InsideLookinOut]

I thought you had given up workstations since you bought your OpenLabs miKo. Glad to see you can't get away from traditional hardware.

Oh no. I love the Miko,but it is still a computer. I'm so accustomed to putting things together on keyboard workstations. I started out with an M1 then ASR10, the Motif ES7 and replaced that with the XS6. I don't dismiss anything that may be a useful tool for making music! Plus the integration with Cubase, I couldn't pass up. Yamaha is supposed to have the Cubase AI editor software etc. available for download sometime next week.

[Yoozer]

I left motifator.com a long time ago. I felt like Bruce Lee in Fists of Fury when a V-Synth argument broke out. Too many fanatics! Check it out, it might still be there. Nice review but the S90ES is all the Yamaha I need. I mean that in a good and a bad way.

What complete idiot would even start with such an apples and rhinos comparison in the first place?

You don't have to be a fanboy to see that it's pointless to argue about in the first place. Was this started by a Motif-owner who thought his ES/XS could replace a V-Synth?

[Son of HuHefner]

I got to listen to an XS at GC today. They had it on the stand right above an ES so I was able to compare them directly. I picked the patches that were on both synths and there is a bigger wide open sound on the ES whereas the XS has that smaller or more compressed sound on the patches I compared, some brass, leads, and a few others. I liked the Ethnic selections on the XS, though the synth categories reminded me of the Fantom X, huge selection but not many catchy or usable sounds. There were better selection of synth sounds on the CS6x and yamaha has taken a step back since then. They need better synth programmers, all the focus on natural sounds has left them lagging in the synth department.

 

 

what kind of amps did GC have with the XS and ES ?

[DmitryKo]

yes, that changed the concept. you changed a huge part about samplers; namely, the fact that they all had to load what you wanted to use, first.

That's great, but the improved workflow and huge sample memory do not define the underlying synthesis model. ROMplers don't have to load anything as well, and hardware like Emulator IV also had very huge memory capacity for their time, but they are still digital samplers. If all of sudden the next Motif featured 4 GB of ROM and 4 GM of RAM, would that really change the concept?

 

8-way switching? Can I perhaps introduce you to Kontakt?

Can it have dynamically switched legato samples in a program?

 

Faster processor. That's only innovation on the side of the people who built that thing. New screen with color. No innovation; in fact, too late. New user interface. That's innovation, but not special. New tone generator. Still plays back samples, still compressed.

 

Actually I don't have any problem with something not being introduced "for the very first time". It's not an inherently bad thing - I mean, what breakthroughs one should expect from yet another Les Paul guitar model, does having no "innovation" make it sound any worse? I don't even think the first synth to use the technologies mentioned above was an innovation, since touchscreens and color GUI were known for decades until they finally made it to synthesizer gear.

 

Yes, the XS is the ES on steroids, obviously not something really new and different like the VP-1/FS-1R or the V-Synth (though Yamaha could have included an improved AN/VL engine onboard like on the EX5, that's true). But to say that the XS is not any better than the ES is, well, a gross oversimplification - there are lots of incremental improvements (here is the a list compiled by Yamaha's product specialist), even though most of them are probably not "something that was never ever done before". Some may yawn at this, but Yamaha is not going in any different direction right now.

 

Integration with Cubase. Yeah, let's build hardware for a software company that's quite notorious for leaving hardware if it doesn't cash in fast enough. Keyword: "Houston" and "Midex". I haven't seen many improvements coming from the merger.

The "integration" is provided by "extensions for Cubase" which are simply a couple of predefined templates plus some plug-ins which basically 1) setup your audio/MIDI connections for the peer-to-peer FireWire interface and 2)allow to import songs in the XS format. (see this post) I wouldn't call this "Advanced Integration" in the first place, but what do I know... Remote control with sliders/knobs/buttons is based on the Mackie control protocol and is not limited to Cubase.

[Chas III v2.O]

[DmitryKo]

 

How many patches actually use more than four layers?

It's all in the Motif XS Data List 1. They don't list the the total number of Elements or layers per Voice but rather the number of "active Elements", i.e. oscillators ("hardware voices") used by each note.

 

 

Even if any particular Voice is using 8 Elements, it's not necessarily so that every note takes all 8 oscillators. In the AWM2 architecture, both samples (Waveforms) and Elements (oscillators) can be used to "layer" sounds (see this post for a detailed breakdown on a specific Mega Voice on the ES), though only Elements are used for "stacking" sounds. More than that, the Elements can now have what they call Xpanded Articulation control - which means Elements can be triggered by legato/staccato playing, grouped by the state of AF1/AF2 buttons or otherwise, or assigned to sound at key-off sound, and these kinds of Elements obviously do not take any additional oscillator.

 

For example, the Full Concert Grand uses 8 separate Elements - 4 for velocity layers of damped notes (up to G5), 3 for velocity layers of non-damped notes (G#5 and above) and 1 for key off sounds. So only one Element sounds at any given time for each note played. This Voice uses a stereo sample though, so it takes two hardware oscillators - so they list it as having 2 "active" Elements (osicllators, in reallity).

 

 

Funny how veryone else calls hardware oscillators "voices of polyphony", but Yamaha calls them "notes of polyphonsy" since they already have Voices (which everyone else calls programs or patches), and it's already confusing since it takes two "notes of polyphony" for each "real" note... And now they confuse even more since a Voice may have only one active Element (in a sense "Element of a Voice sounding for each note", but at the same time take two Elements (in a sence of hardware oscillators" or "voices of polyphony"), since it uses a stereo Waveform... very confusing.

[Son of HuHefner]

I placed my order for the XS7( will take about 2 weeks). This will be my first Motif

 

I am a noob on Motifator, I still need practice posting there. How about this:

 

" Roland/Korg sux, if you remove the FX, the sounds are thin and plasticky. Nobody buys that stuff. Motif RULES, Woof Woof '

[swakefield]

As an XS8 owner, I will say the XS is a major improvement over the ES. Great sounds, nice color screen, workflow improvements, 4 arps on a single performance, half-damper pianos etc.. etc.. I have been a Roland fan for years and still love my RD-600 but the XS is just an amazing instrument. I have been playing the XS non stop for over a week now, and have nothing bad to say about it. I would suggest that anyone who is in the market for a workstation, to audition the XS at home. Most retailers (online or local) have great return policies, just ask up front. I am sure once you have one and can spend a few hours with it, you will not want to take it back.

[mrcpro]

Went to my closest GC yesterday. No XS yet.

 

I just took a look at the raw waveforms, looking for additions and improvements in my hot-button areas (mostly B&B stuff) over the ES. Some observations:

 

The new piano is three layers with key off. You have a choice between stretch and flat tuning.

 

Rhodes and clavs are unchanged. New Wurlie waves.

 

Same B3 waves as before. Still no sets including Leslie. New stereo pipe organ waves.

 

Vocal and choir waves are still the same. Unbelievable, since this is a very weak area on even the discontinued ES.

 

The Rotary effect actually seems to have been scaled back. You can no longer select an amp type or adjust overdrive or crossover frequency.

 

So... some questions for Motif buffs. I don't own one, so I'm in the dark.

 

1. If you load new waves in, are they already looped and ready to go? If not, how hard are they to set up and loop? Is software provided? Does the XS retain externally loaded waveforms when powered down like Fantoms do?

 

2. Can you gang effects together (say... a tube amp sim+rotary) in series at the voice level?

[Son of HuHefner]

swake, I agree, and good advice

 

I have questioned folks about the XS audio setup who say ' do not hear a difference or say the XS is a step down ' with the XS vs ES compare

 

In a GC store, you have to have good headphones. Mono amps w/blown speakers or cheezy little audio monitors at GC are a joke to try out any quality Work station. The constant loud noise factor at my local GC makes it nearly impossible to appreciate the nuance and improvement of the XS

 

I am looking forward to getting my XS7 in 2 weeks

[InsideLookinOut]

I sold my Es7 for the XS6 and have no regrets. Each person will have there own opinion when comparing. I like both, but I'm happy with my upgrade.

[DmitryKo]

I just took a look at the raw waveforms, looking for additions and improvements in my hot-button areas (mostly B&B stuff) over the ES. Some observations

Are you trying to guess it from the Waveform names?

 

1. If you load new waves in, are they already looped and ready to go? If not, how hard are they to set up and loop? Is software provided?

No, the raw samples are not looped automatically. The sampling block is aimed at recording and remixing short audio phrases, so the onboard sampling tools do not offer very broad editing possibilities on the Motifs. There is no wave editing software in the box as well.

 

Does the XS retain externally loaded waveforms when powered down like Fantoms do?

No, user sample memory is DRAM-based (see p.79 of the Owner's manual).

 

2. Can you gang effects together (say... a tube amp sim+rotary) in series at the voice level?

Yes - the Insertion effect actually offers two blocks, InsA and InsB, which can be routed either in series or in parallel. If you want to use the Vocoder Insertion Effect, you have to reallocate these two blocks into a single InsL ("large") block.

 

The Rotary effect actually seems to have been scaled back. You can no longer select an amp type or adjust overdrive or crossover frequency.

Yes - it took a special "combination" effect like DISTORTION+ROTARY SPEAKER etc. on the Motif ES. They were probably implemented with some trade-offs in quality and since you can connect the Insertion blocks in series, I don't think it's all that critical.

[mrcpro]

Are you trying to guess it from the Waveform names?

Thank you for your answers. And actually it's not a guess. In the past, going all the way back to the CS6X anyway, if Yamaha waveforms have exactly the same name abbreviation, they are a carryover.

[Son of HuHefner]

Yamaha ( In LA) is shipping my XS7 today to my favorite dealer.

 

It will be reshipped by the dealer Monday to me, expected arrival late next week.

[H-BOMB!!!]

Yamaha ( In LA) is shipping my XS7 today to my favorite dealer. It will be reshipped by the dealer Monday to me, expected arrival late next week.

 

 

Lucky you!

[mjames4208]

I'm expecting my XS8 on the 30th.... I'm drooling! I haven't been this excited about a new synth in some years... this will be the 1st workstation keyboard that i've owned since ( dont laugh ) the roland D20.. about 20yrs ago... anyway, i've owned several non workstation synth since then... I've owned the motif-rack and currently own the motif-rack es... to me their is a sound difference... and all of the motif's sound better than the FantomXR (which I also have)... anywho, I will be giving a detailed review by the end of the week.

[Son of HuHefner]

very cool. I paid for faster shipping and my XS7 is expected Monday

 

Thats the consensus- the XS sounds better than its predecessors.

 

Funny you mentioned the XR- I sold mine last month, mostly due to lack of use.

 

Will be fun to compare notes

[InsideLookinOut]

Yamaha released the AI extensions for Cubase yesterday! It basically allows you to transfer midi and audio between your Motif and your DAW. The mLAN for the XS6 and XS7 hasn't been released yet, which is okay because I can use usb to import a saved song from the XS directly into Cubase 4. It worked like a charm when I tried it last night.

[Son of HuHefner]

I now have the XS7 and it is quite wonderful

 

An important item- EASY to navigate. Really.

 

I am Zipping around on Voices ( programs) and Performances(combis)

 

The Category function and 4 arrow buttons are well done. The color LCD is excellent for a general or higher view via Category , then you can drill down

to what you want

 

Appearance passed a critical test. My girlfriend likes the look and color.

 

I am very impressed by the ARPS and chordal intelligence- this works very well for strums and bass accompaniment

 

The quality of Voices and Performances is excellent. Yamaha thought this thru and provided something for everyone

 

A slight note- the bass on many Performances seems eq'd up. I have a low pass filter on my Mackie Onyx which I engaged. Bingo. Crisp and clear

 

My setup is now the XS, Rd700sx and Extreme 76. It is easy to dispense with those silly ' comparisons ' by a quick A vs B or A vs C or B vs C

that some folks are passionate about

 

XS7 Keyboard feel - it is nice. Its subtly better than the Extreme 76 synth action keys. Some folks in the know claim the XS7 is semi weighed. It might be. My old A50 ( roland midi controller) was semi weighed and was definitetly a good hybrid between weighed ( piano weight) and the light synth action

[malfunkt]

As a former ES6 owner, while I loved the general capabilities of the Motif, I never really clicked with it. I bought it to make music with instead of relying on a computer, but I didn't put the effort in.

 

I think a large amount of this had to do with the workflow and display.

 

Just recently, I have purchased an RS7000. It shares some similarities to the Motif series in its sequencer and menu functions. I am totally starting to gel with this instrument, and I am so inspired by its sequencing abilities. I can't think of making music without it now!

 

It also made me realize that a similar powerful sequencer is tucked away in the Motif series.

 

Question for former ES now XS owners - what has improved in the sequencer interface area?

 

Looking forward to adding an XS (or XS rack) to my rig one day. My only small gripe is that I am truly surprised it doesn't have some synthesis abilities other than subtractive PCM. Maybe marketing realized not many care or use synthesis these days

[Son of HuHefner]

and this is more great news for us new XS owners:

 

http://www.motifator.com/monews.php

 

"For the new Motif XS owner the 2007 Motif Loyalty Program provides for an additional 1 Year Warranty on the Motif XS, 64 New Voices taken from four of the most popular DCP Voice libraries available on Motifator.com, a new bank of 128 XS voices and extra Performances created by the Yamaha voicing team, a 40% discount coupon on Arturia Virtual Instrument software, and perhaps most important of all the S700 piano sample set taken from the Yamaha S90ES."

[bodi]

I purchased a motif ES6 at the end of December 2007.

Was the first synth i have ever purchased and still trying to get used to it.

I havnt found the manual all that user friendly as you have to jump forwards, backwards in the manual to find out certain things and not all the words used are spelt in laymans terms.

Can anyon advise in respect of the following.

Instead of saving material to a smart media card/large storage device is it possible to save it directly to the hard drive of a PC?

IF so how is this done and can voice, performance, song, pattern data all be saved or only certain types?

Is it also possible once connected to the computer to hear the sounds from the motif come from the PC, by this i dont mean in respect of a midi keyboard controlling software on the pc, but the sounds already stored in the motif? IF so how is that done?

Finally, can Stylus RMX software be used in conjunction with cubase A.I 4?

I have loaded Cubase and Stylus, however when in cubase and you select the devices drop done box there is no link to stylus.

It has been suggested as Cubase AI is a watered down version of Cubase 4 that is why it may not access stylus.

Thanks.