Bringing a song to your band

[SpacedCowboy]

This is for those who are the, for lack of a better phrase "main songwriters" in their band...

 

When you bring in a song to show the other members, do you usually have the arrangement all written out and say, "this is what I want you guys to play and don't change it" or do you say "OK, here's the verses and chorus, (or sometimes, it could be just a hook line or something) what do you guys think?" and then you sort of build the song up collectively from there?

[Tzujan]

Oh man, is that a good question. I sincerely hope that this one brings out the pros.

 

As for me, it is always a toss up, and in some cases, a deal breaker for the band. In some cases, I would bring in a new riff or section, and just sort of start playing it. Someone would always jump in, and we would jam from there. usually, we would play through it over and over for more than 30 minutes, while everyone got a good feel for it.

In other, more troublesome cases, I would bring in a new song, that I had completely arranged, recorded, and transposed. These, strangely enough, never went anywhere. I think the others never wanted to "butcher" the song, or were afraid of putting in the wrong sound/note/whatever.

 

When others would bring in a piece, I would be very careful as well. I would ask them, " Ok, what sound do you hear"? A big piece of the puzzle to me (a synth player) was the emotion of the song. I would always ask for an adjective. Something that described the feel of the tune, or what the writer was thinking/feeling when it was written. From there, I could usually work out a pretty good, and accepted part.

 

So, in answer to the question. To me, I think it really depends on the relationship of the band members, and the tone of the session. Caution is always important, though. Songs are an art form, and can be very personal to the person who wrote it. If you think it needs changing, proceed with tact and extreme caution.

Feelings can get hurt very quickly.

[Sir Enrico Buttcock]

I think it's a lot more relaxing to just bring in a riff or just the very basic parts etc. I've written some songs just by myself and while it's possible to get folks to play the right parts it takes a lot more works because initially there are naturally going to be a lot of mistakes etc. whereas if everybody makes up their own parts it's just that much more flexible and less demanding from the songwriter.

[SpacedCowboy]

 

Originally posted by Tzujan So, in answer to the question. To me, I think it really depends on the relationship of the band members, and the tone of the session. Caution is always important, though. Songs are an art form, and can be very personal to the person who wrote it. If you think it needs changing, proceed with tact and extreme caution. Feelings can get hurt very quickly.

 

 

Yes, that is very true.

 

When it comes to songwriting, sometimes collaborative democracy can be a good thing, sometimes it can drag the process down to a crawl. Whereas, on the flipside of things, if there's one guy that writes the tunes and has things mapped out from intro to verse, to chorus to bridge to solo to outro, it can save time as far as learning new tunes, but it can also be very dictatorial and make the other members feel like "I might as well be in a cover band!"

 

In a situation like MINE, for example, I usually bring in something pretty much intact and say, "OK, what do you guys think?"

 

Nine times out of ten, they trust the direction I'm going with it and then add bits and pieces that would really add to the overall picture, usually involving a better sounding bridge or whatnot. On this one tune we're working on, I thought it was gonna be a baseball-bat-across-the-head riff-o-rama, but the guy who plays guitar for us, upon listening to the rough demo I brought in turned and said, "have you thought about actually making this more acoustic based instead of a balls-out rocker?" Turns out he was right.

 

OR they tell me "That's good, BUT..." or, "that sucks." Very rarely is the time that I have felt so strongly about a tune that I have to have it exactly like the way I heard it. A fresh pair of ears can do wonders.

[THX1138]

My personal opinion, it depends on the writer, and it depends on the song. Some writers have a great feel for arrangement from start to finish, some are better part writers. Thats not to say that the former is always going to hit a home run, and the latter can never string parts together in a cohesive fashion. Just depends. Also, some songs write themselves. You just keep playin and new ideas come out of you. All you have to do is let the song go where it wants to.

 

Gettin back to the original question, I think both ways can work just fine. If "primary songwriter" brings somethin in that works beautifully from first note to last, I got no problem rollin on with it as is. If everyone is feelin it, no need to let ego through the door. But, I also wouldn't want to be in a band where I was just an assembly line worker. I want my creative voice to be heard. However, I ain't to big headed to think that every idea I have is genius. I try to be open to suggestion.

 

Bottom line for me, if you're in with the right group of people, this should never be an issue. I like to think that with the band I'm in, we have enough of a mutual respect in each others talents and abilities. Thats not to say that we don't have our fussy days, but when I look back on those moments, its good to know that we all are passionate enough about our music to want it to be everything it can be.

 

 

 

 

 

...And by the way folks, that Spaced Cowboy ain't too shabby of a songwriter.

[SpacedCowboy]

Originally posted by THX1138 My personal opinion, it depends on the writer, and it depends on the song. Some writers have a great feel for arrangement from start to finish, some are better part writers. Thats not to say that the former is always going to hit a home run, and the latter can never string parts together in a cohesive fashion. Just depends. Also, some songs write themselves. You just keep playin and new ideas come out of you. All you have to do is let the song go where it wants to. Gettin back to the original question, I think both ways can work just fine. If "primary songwriter" brings somethin in that works beautifully from first note to last, I got no problem rollin on with it as is. If everyone is feelin it, no need to let ego through the door. But, I also wouldn't want to be in a band where I was just an assembly line worker. I want my creative voice to be heard. However, I ain't to big headed to think that every idea I have is genius. I try to be open to suggestion. Bottom line for me, if you're in with the right group of people, this should never be an issue. I like to think that with the band I'm in, we have enough of a mutual respect in each others talents and abilities. Thats not to say that we don't have our fussy days, but when I look back on those moments, its good to know that we all are passionate enough about our music to want it to be everything it can be. ...And by the way folks, that Spaced Cowboy ain't too shabby of a songwriter.

 

 

 

The check is in the mail, THX.

 

Thanks for throwin' your two cents in. I hear you got some mean-ass riffs of yer own, sailor.

[Terje]

If I'm bringing my own original song then I hopefully have the lyrics and the melody down. And to me that's the song. Arrangements come and go, and this is also where I want their input.

 

Sometimes I don't have a clear idea fora melody but bring the sketch of the song to the band, to try it out, to get ideas.

 

If I'm bringing a cover (usually an instrumental, often a jazz standard) then we have the melody and the chords and work on an arrangement together. I might have an idea but I'm always open for new ideas.

 

It's important not to get stuck on your own ideas.

[SpacedCowboy]

Originally posted by Terje If I'm bringing my own original song then I hopefully have the lyrics and the melody down. And to me that's the song. Arrangements come and go, and this is also where I want their input. Sometimes I don't have a clear idea fora melody but bring the sketch of the song to the band, to try it out, to get ideas. If I'm bringing a cover (usually an instrumental, often a jazz standard) then we have the melody and the chords and work on an arrangement together. I might have an idea but I'm always open for new ideas. It's important not to get stuck on your own ideas.

 

 

Very true, Terje. Like I said, a fresh set of ears can take a song in better places than you even thought of.

 

And I agree with you that a song is WORDS AND MUSIC. Arrangements are a different animal. But when it comes to song publishing and money starts getting involved, people tend to think they had a bigger hand in the creation of the tune than they did. But that's a WHOLE 'NOTHER THREAD.

[txdrzkt45]

In my experience it has differs. Most of the time, however, I have been a co-writer and when we were done crafting the core song we'd sort of ask ourselves, "Do you think the other guys will dig it?" When we showed it to them, if they liked it, we'd pursue laying down rhythms and bass grooves and adding and subtracting tasteful sections but the core song itself always remained the same, but yet we were all apart of the creative process. Sure, we would get song-writing credits, but not without noting that it was arranged by all.

[Evante49]

Before joining my band, I wrote and recorded several original songs at home and we are now using some of them. For the most part I let them hear the recordings to give them a guideline for the song and tell them that they are welcome to do anything different they feel appropriate because they know their instruments better than I do. Only rarely do I think something is "just right."

[toots]

I usually have a pretty good idea of where I 'm going with the song, so I usually bring in a complete song with the idea that I expect things to change. Interestingly, I've started to arrange and demo a lot of stuff at home in Garageband from start to finish, but when I bring those recordings in to the band to show them the song, I get the feeling their sentiments are in the "Why should we bother, it's all done" realm. Those songs usually don't go anywhere, and the one's that work more are the ones that I bring a basic idea in and the band tears it apart and re-builds it.

[discount star]

I'm lucky to have a nice studio in my house. I can also play the guitar, drums, piano & vocals well enough to convey what I hear in my head to tape. Can't play the bass but I am lucky enough to have a very good and tasteful bassist. I then give it to my band as an outline to build off. They're much better players than myself and they always add a lot to the song. I mainly go thru this process for my drummer who tends to want to overplay and stuff fills in where ever he can. For some reason when he hears it layed out simply, it seems to reel him in a bit and he plays more for the song.

[SpacedCowboy]

Originally posted by discount star I mainly go thru this process for my drummer who tends to want to overplay and stuff fills in where ever he can. For some reason when he hears it layed out simply, it seems to reel him in a bit and he plays more for the song.

 

D-star, you are indeed a lucky, lucky man. My drummer is the exact same way. However, I employ the same recording process, but my drummer STILL wants top clatterbang and dugga-dugga double bass fill everything. It's a constant battle to keep him chilled out and playing for the song. I don't want to crush the guy's creativity, but at the same time, I don't need him doing Mike Portnoy fills all over open spaces where I'm trying to sing. So there ARE times when I HAVE to be a little dicatoral when I bring a song in.

 

Drummers...what the {censored} can ya do with 'em?

[discount star]

Originally posted by SpacedCowboy D-star, you are indeed a lucky, lucky man. My drummer is the exact same way. However, I employ the same recording process, but my drummer STILL wants top clatterbang and dugga-dugga double bass fill everything. It's a constant battle to keep him chilled out and playing for the song. I don't want to crush the guy's creativity, but at the same time, I don't need him doing Mike Portnoy fills all over open spaces where I'm trying to sing. So there ARE times when I HAVE to be a little dicatoral when I bring a song in. Drummers...what the {censored} can ya do with 'em?

 

I hear ya. For as much as I try to help my drummer by recording things to sketch it out for him, he still goes off if we don't harp on him. It is a fine line for sure. You don't want to crush his creative output or take away his aggresiveness but man, you got to play for the song. So in the end, I reel him back in, make him keep simple time and we end up in this ongoing love/hate relationship. Sometimes I'd just rather do the {censored} myself.

[discount star]

Originally posted by SpacedCowboy D-star, you are indeed a lucky, lucky man. My drummer is the exact same way. However, I employ the same recording process, but my drummer STILL wants top clatterbang and dugga-dugga double bass fill everything. It's a constant battle to keep him chilled out and playing for the song. I don't want to crush the guy's creativity, but at the same time, I don't need him doing Mike Portnoy fills all over open spaces where I'm trying to sing. So there ARE times when I HAVE to be a little dicatoral when I bring a song in. Drummers...what the {censored} can ya do with 'em?

 

I actually had an idea what I am planning to do for a particular song that I want NO fills on. I have my own kit that we record on at my studio. I am going to remove the toms and cymbals (my drummer is a cymbal crazed idiot). He will have only a bass drum, snare and hi hats to work with...{censored} 'em! :D

[SpacedCowboy]

Originally posted by discount star I actually had an idea what I am planning to do for a particular song that I want NO fills on. I have my own kit that we record on at my studio. I am going to remove the toms and cymbals (my drummer is a cymbal crazed idiot). He will have only a bass drum, snare and hi hats to work with...{censored} 'em! :D

 

LMAO!!!

 

YEAH! Let me know how that turns out!

 

Actually, kinda off topic, this reminds me of a story of the drummer I was telling you about. While he was rehearsing with our original band (members include myself, THX1138 and squealie, also members of HC) , he was doing the Top-40 thing in another, just to earn a little cash and keep his chops up. (At least that's what he told us...I think he just wanted the chics. )

Anyway, we decided to make a surprise appearance at a club he was playing one night. He was taking lead vocals on a rap song (it was either Eminem or Sir Mix-A-Lot, not sure, not important) and while he's busy rapping his little caucasian heart out, us and the members of his Top-40 band start striking his kit, one by one and shifting the pieces off stage. We took his extra kick, his cymbals, his toms, everything. Until, by the time the song ended, all he had was a kick, snare and high-hat.

 

It was definitely worth the price of admission.

[NPBstar]

I've been playing with the guys in my band for over 10 years. So I usually originate a riff on the acoustic guitar, and then I build it from there. What's great is, I know how the drummer and bass player are going respond when I'm writing on the acoustic. Then, in practice when I show them what I have, they also know exactly what I'm looking for. I may guide the drummer slightly with different accents, but again he knows what I'm looking to hear. As far as vocals, I let the singer do his thing.

[Silvertrain]

This is a good thread. I find it hard to stay fair when dealing with this topic because I understand some instruments better than others. Usually I write the bulk of a song and bring it into the group to play. This is where the unfair aspects start to creep in, since I am a guitarist and therefore will inevitably be more critical or demanding of the other guitarist in our band. That said, I know very little about drumming so I can't give adequate direction to our drummer. I guess its a bit of give and take. I don't really do lyrics but do all the melodies; I just sing gibberish at the singer until he gets the melody and from there he does his own lyrics.

 

I guess with regards to presenting a full arrangement, if the guys you have don't want to play what you've arranged then I think it is up to them to come up with something else.

[UncleDig]

My experience with this is from a regionally successful old-school punk rock band (read: Ramones, Vindictives, etc), and there may be a factor there - since we're not talking about fully orchestrated music - only 1 guitar, 1 bass, drums and vox.

 

But, our experience was that even a fully written song should be laid out, and the subjected to the refinement of the "band". Lyrical tactics might be tweaked (but never the core theme, nor key lyrics). We would *always* jam the song with 2 or 3 different rhythm/feel approaches. Sometimes a new break or a slight variation on the verse or chorus might just "happen" because of these jams. I can remember so many times we'd be working up a new song... and we'd be coming out of a verse... and we'd all just stop and look at each other... knowing that there was something there we were missing. We learned to not go crazy shouting ideas... but instead stop, in the moment, and think about what we were hearing - and then give suggestions in an orderly way.

 

I think this kind of writing is at the very soul of being a "band".

 

Dig

[A_Str8]

My band always had different starting points depending on the song and the writer, but one thing that was constant was something always got changed. Initially it bothered me to have my ideas changed, but I got used to it. A band (at least the one I was in) is a collaboration of musicians, so everyone should have input on a song while respecting eachother's ideas. If I was really attached to song and I thought it might get changed, I just wouldn't bring it to the band. There are times for collaboration and times for solo work.

 

Three of us generally wrote the songs. One guy would never bring anything to the rest of us unless it was fully arranged. I think because of that and the higher learning curve, it was harder for him to get everyone to work on his songs. Another guy usually came with a riff and we built from there. My songs varied in completeness.

[SpacedCowboy]

 

Originally posted by A_Str8 My band always had different starting points depending on the song and the writer, but one thing that was constant was something always got changed. Initially it bothered me to have my ideas changed, but I got used to it. A band (at least the one I was in) is a collaboration of musicians, so everyone should have input on a song while respecting eachother's ideas. If I was really attached to song and I thought it might get changed, I just wouldn't bring it to the band. There are times for collaboration and times for solo work.

 

 

I guess that's the soloution, isn't it? If a song is so precious where you have to keep it intact right down to the last grace note, save it for a solo project.

 

Unless the guys in your band are on salary as your backing musicians, SOMETHING is gonna get changed. And even if they play it like you want it, it's not gonna come out exactly the same unless you share the same DNA.

[GOSG]

Well let me really muddy the water, just think of what happens when a record producer gets their hands on your material! Not saying producers are good or bad

[AlienLogik]

Originally posted by SpacedCowboy LMAO!!! YEAH! Let me know how that turns out! Actually, kinda off topic, this reminds me of a story of the drummer I was telling you about. While he was rehearsing with our original band (members include myself, THX1138 and squealie, also members of HC) , he was doing the Top-40 thing in another, just to earn a little cash and keep his chops up. (At least that's what he told us...I think he just wanted the chics. ) Anyway, we decided to make a surprise appearance at a club he was playing one night. He was taking lead vocals on a rap song (it was either Eminem or Sir Mix-A-Lot, not sure, not important) and while he's busy rapping his little caucasian heart out, us and the members of his Top-40 band start striking his kit, one by one and shifting the pieces off stage. We took his extra kick, his cymbals, his toms, everything. Until, by the time the song ended, all he had was a kick, snare and high-hat. It was definitely worth the price of admission.

 

lucky bastards! i swear, finding a drummer that doesnt suck and can keep time is the hardest thing ever, i finally stuck myself with a stoner whos a great drummer when he shows up..... hardest member of the band to find for me: a good drummer...... 100 good bassists and 45 claptons wouldnt make up for a great, inspired drummer (who can actually play at a volume under 11 for more than 15min w/o bitchin)... love tha bastards! i will agree, {censored}in with the kit gets great results, break it down to a jazz kit, tom, snare and hi hat.... they can do it, even if they say they cant..... a good drummer is worth more than a thousand good singers/guitarists (this coming from a singer/guitarist..... rhythm is essential!).... maybe i'm bitter......

[SpacedCowboy]

 

Originally posted by GOSG Well let me really muddy the water, just think of what happens when a record producer gets their hands on your material! Not saying producers are good or bad

[discount star]

Originally posted by AlienLogik lucky bastards! i swear, finding a drummer that doesnt suck and can keep time is the hardest thing ever, i finally stuck myself with a stoner whos a great drummer when he shows up..... hardest member of the band to find for me: a good drummer...... 100 good bassists and 45 claptons wouldnt make up for a great, inspired drummer (who can actually play at a volume under 11 for more than 15min w/o bitchin)... love tha bastards! i will agree, {censored}in with the kit gets great results, break it down to a jazz kit, tom, snare and hi hat.... they can do it, even if they say they cant..... a good drummer is worth more than a thousand good singers/guitarists (this coming from a singer/guitarist..... rhythm is essential!).... maybe i'm bitter......

 

Drummers are like cars...a necessary evil. The drummer HAS to be the best one in the band. If you have a good drummer, you can basically take a {censored} on top of what he plays and it comes out cool.

We recorded the other night. My drummer played to a click (which, granted, isn't the most fun thing to do). He couldn't keep time with it. He was very adamant that the click was 1/100th of a second off. :mad: