Does anyone here actually write songs?

[adol_ivxx]

Isn't it the other way? When you use your voice to perform a song, you sing it? Actually, now that I think about it, one just the noun and the other's the verb form. Of the same word, though, which does support your whole "derived-from" point.

 

You can sing a song, play a song and even sing a play, but play-singing a song that you sung is SOoo played, son. (rhymes with sung, get it? hahaha... okay, it's late... or is that early? Well, time for bed, anyhoo...)

 

aDoL_iVxX

[BryanMichael]

Originally posted by baseballdadx not to open up this thread to pointless discussion again... but i will. instrumental songs are still songs. would you say a jazz trio or kenny g or a big band song isn't a song? just because there's no singer? it's then a "composition?" cmon now, it's a song. instrumental songs don't have to be random--- and songs with lyrics can be random without structure. broaden your music library before making blanket statements. check out www.allmusic.com for some ideas

 

Yes, jazz compositions are not songs unless they contain a lyrical component. A song by definition (you can look it up in any dictionary) is music composed for singing with a lyrical component.

Kenny G and jazz trios that play compositions are not "songwriters". I like jazz and I enjoy listening to the instrumental things that people post, but they aren't songs. Songs and songwriting are very specific things. Please, this is not "my opinion" there is an established craft called 'songwriting' that has been around for a long time. Of course songs can be random without structure (REM comes to mind- hell, Stipe can't even remember what the 'lyrics" were sometimes!) and the music is enjoyable and I like their songs, but this is just one example. I participated in a writers worshop once where this girl decided to string words together and capitalize things and not capitalize things at random and write disconnected free verse thoughts and paragraphs. Is it "valid"? sure, okay, but it was un-readable and whatever effect she was trying to achieve would have been better accomplished if she would have used those techniques sparingly in a well constructed narrative to show contrast. you can call me narrow minded or accuse me of not having a broad musical base (although I think that is funny since you don't know me) but songwritng is an established craft, just like writing, poetry, art, etc.. Of course as I've stated before you can {censored} in a jar and call it "art" and no one can really argue with you, so by all means...

 

But this goes back to the original point that I made about not "criticizing content" so much as critiquing structure and communicating what is 'working" and not working from a lyrical point of view (consistancy, incomplete or mixed metaphors, word use, etc..) which mostly falls into the poor writing category (again, not content wise, but structure)

[Aaron Cheney]

Once again BryanMichael is absolutely correct.

 

If you want to know why experienced songwriters don't post in this forum just read this thread. It's like banging your head against a wall.

 

A

[LDF]

I just love beating dead horses. OK This is what I found on the word "song" in Websters as well as an online etymology dictionary.

 

Etymology: Middle English, from Old English sang; akin to Old English singan to sing

1 : the act or art of singing

2 : poetical composition

3 a : a short musical composition of words and music b : a collection of such compositions

4 : a distinctive or characteristic sound or series of sounds (as of a bird or insect)

5 a : a melody for a lyric poem or ballad b : a poem easily set to music

6 a : a habitual or characteristic manner b : a violent, abusive, or noisy reaction

7 : a small amount

 

O.E. sang "art of singing, a metrical composition adapted for singing," from P.Gmc. *sangwaz (cf. O.N. s

[Big Boss Man]

I do write songs but do not post them here. I've been playing guitar and writing music for about 20 years now. I can usually tell on my own if something I wrote is good or bad. I just don't really see alot of value in getting songwriting advice from some random people. If I wrote a song that I feel is good, I'm not going to change it unless you're a record producer offering me a big contract.

 

BTW, instrumentals are not really songs. I don't care what any dictionary says. Also, lyrics alone are not a song either. Evaluating them alone is not worth the effort. A song is a complete package: music, lyrics, melody.

[BryanMichael]

 

Originally posted by Big Boss Man I do write songs but do not post them here. I've been playing guitar and writing music for about 20 years now. I can usually tell on my own if something I wrote is good or bad. I just don't really see alot of value in getting songwriting advice from some random people. If I wrote a song that I feel is good, I'm not going to change it unless you're a record producer offering me a big contract. BTW, instrumentals are not really songs. I don't care what any dictionary says. Also, lyrics alone are not a song either. Evaluating them alone is not worth the effort. A song is a complete package: music, lyrics, melody.

 

 

actually you are AGREEING with the dictionary.

[Aaron Cheney]

 

Originally posted by BryanMichael actually you are AGREEING with the dictionary.

 

 

I use the dictionary as the inspiration for all my songs!

 

A

[TaoManna Don]

 

Originally posted by Aaron Cheney I almost never bother to critique songs here or in the other BBS I post in. Why? All the reasons you stated. I'm tired of giving thoughtful, knowledgable advice based on real-world experience, only to be told that I don't know what I'm talking about, that there are no "rules" in songwriting, and I should just go off and die for not recognizing "real" art when I see it. I've grown tired of the whole thing. My heart is sick and sad. From where the sun now stands I will fight no more forever. A

 

 

I go through times of feeling just like what you've described. Then, after a while, I give it another try. Songwriting is so personal that most writers don't want to hear anything negative about their "baby". They may ask for a critique but what they want to hear is applause. Anything less is often met with enough hostility to discourage anyone (especially when we thought we were actually offering help.)

 

Now, when I offer song-specific advice, I sugar-coat it and keep it simple as I can. Sometimes that works. Often it doesn't.

 

Aaron, I think I saw you on the Muses Muse a while back. That forum is probably the best I have found for open-minded acceptance of songwriting advice. A lot of young songwriters there could really benefit from your expertise; and some of them might even listen.

 

Don

[bhutos]

Instrumentals aren't any less post-worthy than lyrics.

Both are incomplete "songs" and have an equal footing.

I don't find it worthwhile to even read lyric-only posts.. Sure you can critique structure but thats about the least interesting part of lyrics. It's almost worthless to read them out of context unless you just want to know if it's cliched crap or not... and even then crap can sound great to the music.

A thread that says "i just wrote this song" in the title and then displays a set of lyrics is like a thread that says "nude {censored} inside" and has one of those Mr Bigglesworth cats in it.

 

How can you know if something's "working mechanically" in anything other than very bland structure if you can't hear the cogs and wheels it interacts with?

 

"crawl right up on your knees,

please greed feed"

&

"hey pig, yeah you

hey pig piggy pig pig pig

all of my fears came true"

 

sounds really, really bad until You hear Trent Reznor singing them on Downward Spiral for instance.

Post the song.. THEN post the lyrics for tweaking they're MUCH easier to critquewhen they're actually in context.

[BryanMichael]

Originally posted by bhutos Instrumentals aren't any less post-worthy than lyrics. Both are incomplete "songs" and have an equal footing. I don't find it worthwhile to even read lyric-only posts.. Sure you can critique structure but thats about the least interesting part of lyrics. It's almost worthless to read them out of context unless you just want to know if it's cliched crap or not... and even then crap can sound great to the music. A thread that says "i just wrote this song" in the title and then displays a set of lyrics is like a thread that says "nude {censored} inside" and has one of those Mr Bigglesworth cats in it. How can you know if something's "working mechanically" in anything other than very bland structure if you can't hear the cogs and wheels it interacts with? "crawl right up on your knees, please greed feed" & "hey pig, yeah you hey pig piggy pig pig pig all of my fears came true" sounds really, really bad until You hear Trent Reznor singing them on Downward Spiral for instance. Post the song.. THEN post the lyrics for tweaking they're MUCH easier to critquewhen they're actually in context.

 

 

 

1. No one said that instrumentals aren't "post worthy" In fact I think we stated several times that posting them was undestandable and enjoyable.

 

2. I guess me, Aaron, and everyone that has ever written a book on songwriting, or designed a music college curriculum course on songwriting, or those that publish Performing Songwriter, Sing Out, or any other songwriting magazines are ALL wrong in understanding that songwriting is a sepcific thing...but YOU are right about it Forgive me, I understand your point, but there are songs that we all enjoy that don't necessarilly fit the mold...of course I think we've covered that already as well and no one is saying anything about that.

The Rezor lyrics you posted might be great if we knew what came before them and after them we could understand that- in fact, something like "head like a hole" is a perfect example of the lyrics all working together cohesively- which is what we mean by structure, they agree. Again you seem to argue content, content, content!

This is what soooooo many inexperienced songwriters just don't get, the difference between the two.

 

Language works in certain ways, that doesn't change just because it's set to music. Changing a point of view or using a "but" or "and" in the wrong way or using a word that doesn't mean what the context implies it means all are structural elements that can be critiqued among many others. It's really too hard to explain I guess, which is why there are good songwriters and then there are people that think poor English set to music makes it art, like a badly written Chinese menu.

[stratton]

 

Originally posted by Aaron Cheney Once again BryanMichael is absolutely correct. If you want to know why experienced songwriters don't post in this forum just read this thread. It's like banging your head against a wall. A

 

 

I'm no expert by any means, but from the perspective of having followed lyric and song structure rules, and having made a couple grand from following the songwriting rules, I agree with Aaron completely here.

 

I do some producing as well as writing, and the other night this guy went to the wall with me arguing that it was OK to have the first instance of a prechorus appear after the first verse and chorus.

 

OK, maybe. Hell, why not? However, all the sections had the same melody and chords! He would have nothing to do with any of my suggestions. So, I gave him his money back, except for studio time, cancelled the session and referred him to a local songwriter's association for help.

 

He called me later to say that everyone at the songwriter's meeting liked the song and wanted to re-schedule our session. I couldn't believe it, so I called the coordinator. She told me that this guy spent the entire workshop, the portion of time allotted to him anyway, saying that the other writers didn't get it and that they were too bound by rules to express themselves.

 

Talk about banging your head against a wall.

 

Ken

[bhutos]

Originally posted by BryanMichael 1. No one said that instrumentals aren't "post worthy" In fact I think we stated several times that posting them was undestandable and enjoyable.   I'm not arguing with you about that. Just stating a fact.   2.blah blah blah reading comprehension blah blah   Yeah thats exactly what I said   Forgive me, I understand your point, but there are songs that we all enjoy that don't necessarilly fit the mold...of course I think we've covered that already as well and no one is saying anything about that.   I'm only reaffirming this point not arguing it.   The Rezor lyrics you posted might be great if we knew what came before them and after them we could understand that- in fact, something like "head like a hole" is a perfect example of the lyrics all working together cohesively- which is what we mean by structure, they agree. Again you seem to argue content, content, content!   Head like a hole is also very conservative structurally. If it was posted here lyrics only people would slam it for all the rhyming verses and being uncreative and cliched. I know what you mean by structure, it should be one of the most obvious aspects of writing.     Language works in certain ways, that doesn't change just because it's set to music. Changing a point of view or using a "but" or "and" in the wrong way or using a word that doesn't mean what the context implies it means all are structural elements that can be critiqued among many others. It's really too hard to explain I guess, which is why there are good songwriters and then there are people that think poor English set to music makes it art, like a badly written Chinese menu.   I don't argue content content content. I'm not one of these "If you build it they will come" "art is art because i say it is art" "any song is a good song if i say so" people. It's not hard to explain at all.. point of view and grammatical errors etc are so obvious it's almost not even worth arguing about them. I think we're arguing seperate things. I'm talking more about lyrics as they relate to the melody, the amount of syllables to a chord pattern etc. Not whether they've graduated highschool. Maybe it's because I don't spend anytime correcting people's poor english that I'm taking that as a given for arguments sake.. Almost the same way I wouldn't care about spelling mistakes ()   When i say mechanics in relation to lyrics and music, i mean eg : "the amount of syllables in that verse cause you to almost staccato rapid fire them which doesn't fit in with the soft strumming pattern you are using on those two chords".   These are the cogs and wheels I'm talking about.   How can I critique your lyrics properly if I can't see what they're interacting with? Yes I can correct english, make sure you're not jumping POV"s or tenses, but so can an english teacher and I still don't know if it's going to work to your music even though it may be internally logical. Dig it? Not worth my time to look into it.

[LeGreatOne]

"Does anyone here actually write songs?"

 

What do you mean? For a living?

 

Not many are lucky enough to do that. Selling songs is a very difficult job unless you "know someone" on the inside and can get a contract.

 

I write songs, music and lyrics, but I do it for the pleasure it brings me, and to satisfy my desire to tinker in what, many, many years ago, I had hoped would be my profession.

 

I've written good songs and bad songs, and generally I discard the bad songs... I have written a number of exceptionally good songs that don't have commercial appeal.

I used to submit songs to the "(Almost) Annual Billboard Song Writer's Contests", but my awards were limited to Honorable Mentions.

 

Yet, some songs I've written are as good as any I've heard recorded by big name artists.... Often better.

 

Back in the 1980's I bought several books that were purported to instruct the layman on how to get songs published.

They advised writing record companies and recording groups, and asking permission, YES, ASKING FOR PERMISSION, prior to sending any material in for consideration.

I set about doing this at length, and after spending a lot of money on postage and stationary to write permission requests, receiving perhaps three "Sure, Send Us Somethings" out of every hundred or so mailings, spending the time and money to record songs and then waiting months only to have my material returned with a form letter that read "Sorry XXXX Music (or XXXX group) is not accepting submissions at this time", I simply gave it up.

It wasn't worth the expense and hassle to pursue the dream if I couldn't produce and promote the songs myself.

 

So now I write for pleasure.

 

If I had a voice, I'd record to CD and sell my songs online via CD BABY. You may want to consider this avenue!

[yidneth.com]

oh, gee

as a newbie reading most of this has been really discouraging,

but anyway, i would say I write songs

or try to

[digitalsnipe]

I don't mean to shoot down this thread but the question answers itself simply by scrolling down and reading / listening to the content of this forum. Sometimes questions can be answered indirectly, especially in this forum where the topic is discussed inside and out should the reader decide to take the time to actually read it. The same questions have been addressed so many times that seasoned members have a tendency to go passed a newbie asking it of them yet one more time. That may seem intolerable but it does happen.

 

I post actual songs here that may/may not get listened to. The point is, I posted them and that keeps the information pipeline going.

 

Not unusual to get the cold shoulder feeling from this forum. Many folks searching for answers to general/specific topics post here but the bulk of the questions are subjective in nature and really are personal issues with (their) music situations. They want answers anyway and the site becomes a sort of support group for aspiring musicians and writers. That goes beyond the actual purpose of the forum and responding to someones emotionally-based post might not happen.

 

Try scrolling through this forum for your answers. If no recent posts address it then it's old news and might be viewed as a fresh post. It's the way to learn the ropes of this place. Also, this place is very slow. It wears the colors of an active community but is the furthest thing from that in practice. Patience is required.

 

Hey Priscilla, you have a great voice and I liked what I heard from your site. Thanks for posting the link.

[yidneth.com]

thanks for your comment, it's really very appreciated.

I came here because one spanish section is launching here monday and they gave us the address, I see there are many users actively visiting the site, but it's still too early for me to take conclusions, i just hope to get to know the people in here, and learn from them

 

kind regards

[piannatunah]

Originally posted by ToxicBass I'm new to the boards. It would seem this songwriting board should be "the place to be". But there doesn't seem to be any sharing of information, just the occasional opinion of someones heart-felt effort at songwriting. I for example have a Tascam PortaII tape, run Windows 98 at home and have dial-up. I also have a big fat mortgage and a family to feed. I have no way to produce or post Mp3's. The best I can do is post lyrics. I posted some and then deleted the posts. Why? There doesn't seem to be any interest in songwriting (at least not mine). Some of you guys have years of knowledge and experience to share with us peons. Are you afraid someone will rip-off your material? Hell, you can have mine if you can make it go. Some of the boards are overcrowded with off-topic crap and the occasional "Dude like you only have 12 posts and you got nothin to say". Gee, I would really love to comment on all the crap I don't know about, just so I can have all those posts like you. I know lots of people who can play an instrument; none of which can write a song. I don't play bass very well and I play guitar even worse. One thing I can do is mix words and melody; crudely structured, I call them- songs. Maybe not ones you like but I created them. I came here to learn about something I like to do from people who know how to do it. This board could and should be the best and most creative of all the forums; the board everyone wants to read. You can tell me to shut the F'ck up- but I ain't goin' away.

 

 

 

Hi, ToxicBass. I'd be happy to give my input if you want it. I'm a

member of the Baltimore Songwriters Association and have been writing for about 20 years. That doesn't necessarily mean that I can quit my day job:D . The acousticguitarforum.com has a section

for songwriting. You might want to do a google search for any songwriting groups in your area. Almost every city has one. If I could recommend only one book it would be "Successfull Lyric Writing" byShiela Davis. I learned more from one chapter in her

book than I could have figured out on my own. I really think it's the gold standard for songwriting It also is a workbook with excercises with which to hone your skills. You might want to add

a good thesarus, rhyming dictionary (Clement Wood's is excellent)

an atlas (many great tunes have a place as their title) a good dictionary, a dictionary of synonyms and antonyms (Devlin) and a

Dictionary of cliches (Rodgers). Don't be afraid of rewriting. That's a crucial part. I've heard some songs that were written in a few minutes, most of them sound like they were. Unless you're one of

those rare people who can do that intuitively (I sure can't!) it's no shame in learning the craft. Good luck!

[Lee Flier]

Hey all, I'll be moderating a couple of new forums here starting tomorrow, but I'm sure I'll be hanging around some of the other forums too so I thought I'd chime in here, as I do write songs.

 

It doesn't surprise me too much that there aren't a lot of posts on a songwriting forum, because songwriting is such a personal process. It's the thing you usually do while sitting by yourself in a room and usually feeling pretty vulnerable. You can't cover up any inadequacies by cranking up your amp. And a lot of times, at least for me, it's hard to define where songs "come from" - I couldn't really explain to somebody else how to get ideas or anything like that, I either get 'em or don't.

 

I can also see why people get discouraged from posting their songs or critiquing others' songs. I'm not sure that a forum is a good place to solicit "critiques" for a lot of the reasons mentioned. But it CAN be a place where, if somebody's stuck on something, they might be able to get inspired by bouncing ideas off others. I write within the context of a band and I've found it helps a TON to have other people to bounce ideas off of.

 

Also, there are techniques for jump starting ideas, and also for fleshing out songs once you get them started, that would probably be good to discuss here. That can be in more general terms or by using examples from known songs; you don't necessarily have to expose your own ideas to everybody.

 

Just a few ideas for jump starting the traffic around here, if it's helpful... they might be better topics of discussion than "song critique" type things - especially since we probably all write in different styles etc. Which really shouldn't matter too much because good writing principles can be applied to any style.

 

Oh, and here are a few of my songs just so y'all know where I'm coming from musically... these are all fairly different from each other.

 

For Love Or Money

Innocence Found!

Nothing Left to Dream

 

Looking forward to hanging with you folks!

[iAnders]

Welcome to the forums, Lee! I remember you from the musicplayer.com forums from my lurking days there You had like a zillion posts right? What's the deal with you guys coming over here anyway? I bet it has something to do with musiciansfriend buying HC Anyway, I'm glad to have you and Craig here. Hope you can handle this place. Some of the forums can get quite messy sometimes.

PS: Your music is cool

[digitalsnipe]

Originally posted by Lee Flier Hey all, I'll be moderating a couple of new forums here starting tomorrow, but I'm sure I'll be hanging around some of the other forums too so I thought I'd chime in here, as I do write songs. I can also see why people get discouraged from posting their songs or critiquing others' songs. I'm not sure that a forum is a good place to solicit "critiques" for a lot of the reasons mentioned. But it CAN be a place where, if somebody's stuck on something, they might be able to get inspired by bouncing ideas off others. I write within the context of a band and I've found it helps a TON to have other people to bounce ideas off of. Also, there are techniques for jump starting ideas, and also for fleshing out songs once you get them started, that would probably be good to discuss here. That can be in more general terms or by using examples from known songs; you don't necessarily have to expose your own ideas to everybody. Just a few ideas for jump starting the traffic around here, if it's helpful... they might be better topics of discussion than "song critique" type things - especially since we probably all write in different styles etc. Which really shouldn't matter too much because good writing principles can be applied to any style. Oh, and here are a few of my songs just so y'all know where I'm coming from musically... these are all fairly different from each other. For Love Or Money Innocence Found! Nothing Left to Dream Looking forward to hanging with you folks!

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Hello Lee. In the words of the famous doctor: "What are you and who have you been doing?" And, welcome aboard the boards.

 

Yea, it's a strange thing to ask for a song critique on this "Songwriting" forum, ironic as that may seem. I agree with your note about the personal baggage that goes into writing a song. But, when is a song not personal? That's part of the package and if someone is going to post songs here he or she understands and accepts the fact that it could get good or bad reviews. That said, if this forum isn't suitable to posting of songs, which is. Or, should folks refrain from posting songs here, period.

 

I am a writer. I don't stick to a particular style but I pretty much stay in the acoustic genre. When someone posts their songs I give a listen. If I don't feel qualified to give a critique I won't respond. I listen for the qualitative. As an acoustic player of 30 years I strive to stay objective, understanding going in the personal (fragile) issues haunting the writer/poster. Always keeping in mind that one person's notion of a serious effort to make music is another's belly-laugh, I'll respond only to that which I have experience with and can remain truly objective. But, given that there are so many cross-genre styles it is difficult at best to find an ear to lend here that does have experience enough to respond even in a limited way.

 

So, even though the craft of writing songs might be discussed here the actual posting of material, which could be in part the culmination of lessons learned here on the forum, is ill-suited to this same forum.

 

Where does a person go for that?

[bass_n_drums]

i'm a songwriter, guitarist, and singer by default because I was put in that position. There are alot of great points here made by many people. From what I've learned about songwriting is like a building a great guitar! Every part of that guitar that was assemble from the idea of the designed to the woods, electronics, pickups and construction all play a vital role on how great a guitar plays and sounds.

 

There are no rules to writing or structuring a song unless you plan to do it commercially within the Music biz. They usually have some guidelines for that especially when you sign to a label which if it's a major then you're song will be dismantled by a producer to make it commercialized.

 

 

From my experienced of writing songs. The first thing that comes to mind is the riff of the guitar or bass. Mainly guitar, I'll work on the vibe over and over until i get more parts like verses, choruses, bridges and etc. Once I'm happy with what the song structure sounds like. Then I come up with a melody for what sounds most inspiring for the song. I'll ad lib until I get a catchy phrase I like. Then I work the words within the melody and make any changes necessary for both melody and words and possibly guitar parts. That's been my secret of putting a song together...but my secret weapon is using a drum machine to get inspiring ideas for songs.

[tompetty]

I don't post clips either but what I've found is simple....when you post lyrics it's a form of poetry....Plain and simple....the only way to judge it is by taking it as a story.....I've posted a few of my lyrics on here and they've been well received....they read better with voice and music..

[tompetty]

Originally posted by BryanMichael I don't post much here because I found it pointless. Many people here work under a few things that make them rather useless to me anyway. 2. Many people here feel that any rhyme is a cliche rhyme. "serious" poetry and lyrics don't rhyme. Again, I say bull{censored}. There is room enough for all kinds of writing, but a rhyme that works in a phrase that actually says something and moves the song narrative forward is brilliant IMO, but it's harder to write and I'm not saying that all of my own work fits into all of these perfect categories all the time either... instrumental compositions. I realize that they don;t really have another place to post them here at HC, but they are NOT songs!! they are instrumental compositions. Songwriting is a specific thing, again people want to argue about that- but other "dedicated" songwriter boards have members that understand that, however I DO find most of them to be awash in cliches... B

Man you're good.....

[tompetty]

OK...before bed I'll give a go...

a bluegrass(That's impt) tune I wrote when I was pissed at the wife for forcing me to mow the lawn when I didn't feel like it..anyway

 

Moma Drove Dad Crazy..

 

Moma drove Dad crazy

damned near half his life

she was more like a mother

than a loving wife

she'd rag'n nag and torture him

'till it ended in a fight

Moma drove Dad crazy

damned near half his life

 

Dad cooked Sunday dinner

then he cleaned up the mess

he was downstairs watching football

a little too happy I guess

he did all that he could do

as far as I could see

then Moma came thumping downstairs

said pay some attention to me

 

Dad came home from work one day

and she met him at the door

she was red faced and cussin'

he didn't know what for

she said I hate my life

and I wish that I was dead

Dad smiled at me,pulled a gun

and shot her through the head

 

I went up to the prison

there was a question I had to ask

the guard sat him down across from me

and said son make it fast

I said Daddy are you happy now?

or are you sorry for what you did?

then I seen a twinkle in his eye

on his face a big old grin

He said life's been hard on me son

but I don't think about the past

Moma's gone and I'm in here

Hell No,I'm free at last...

[tompetty]

Originally posted by pretaanluxis I always say that the melody, cater, and generally how the words are said is much more important thatn the actual words.

yup