Your Response to Criticism?

[eeglug]

I'm a little curious about what people are getting out of posting their songs on a public forum for critique. So I lined up some questions for those of you who've done it. Think of it as the HC Songwriting Forum survey LOL:

 

What do you expect to learn from the praise and criticism you receive?

 

Did the critiques meet your expectations?

 

What do you do with the criticism? Do you accept ALL comments and seriously act on them? Do you selectively accept some advice and ignore the rest? Or have you found all responses unhelpful and just ignored them all?

 

Do you make actual changes to your recordings and re-post them? Or do you simply accept and digest the criticism for future reference?

 

Do you solicit critiques for everything you do or just certain songs?

 

Do you ever find people criticizing what they think are mistakes/flaws but are in fact elements you deliberately put in the music because you like it that way? Do you ever find people criticizing some aspect of your song that you find totally trivial?

 

Do you think the range of critiques you received are a fair representation of the general public? Or do they only represent a population of musicians? Are they representative of anything at all?

 

Does it bug you when you want help with your lyrics and all anyone will say is that the hihat's too loud?

 

OK, I've run out of dumb questions.

[mekke]

I actually take it with me and try and implement the changes as long as its possible, and circumstances allow it: I have a two years old little girl and I live in a flat, so to get "recording" silence is a challenge in the evening when I get back from work.

 

I love feedback, whether is positive or negative: I find negative feedback more difficult to give, than giving positive one. When I try to express what I find negative I find myself thinking twice as hard to find the right words to say what I wanna say.

I would think that this goes for a lot of people, as many of us do not really take pride in critcising the work of others: that is why I do have the tendency to treasure whatever I am told.

I have already implemented changes in my songs, following to what some of the guys have told me; in most cases critcisms were right and fair.

 

This is the only forum in HC where people seem to behave like adults; I have been hanging around in other forums and I find it so non-constructive to compliment every fart that gets posted with "well done dude!", "your axe rawks!", "what amp do you use?" blah, blah, blah... always tryng to hide behind the truth of what you really think - which - alas! - sometimes is "my god, this stuff really is not good"

 

Like you I doubt how many songs get changed after the comments. Mine do, and I am so ever grateful when I get an indication of what I should do to improve. The challenge is to get people to listen to my track a second time, after the changes have been made...In that case they will most likely say that "it sounds much better" due to the psichology to it all.

 

 

My god...Long answer that was! ...Oi!

[bluesway]

i'm a one-man band. (i'm even my own drummer).....

PROS: i have 100% control and every idea in the song is my own

CONS: i have 100% control and every idea in the song is my own

 

when i post stuff for critique, i rely heavily on what these guys will say about it; i need 'new ears' on the mix and on the quality of the performance....usually, though, the structure's pretty much EXACTLY where i want it, but whenever someone comments on my structure choices, i have to say it REALLY makes me think about what to do next time (either in a re-record of that song or the next song)

 

back to the "new ears" thing: usually, i'm pretty psyched about a new song i just recorded, and after laying down the drums, tracking bass, tracking guitar(s), and then singing, you're pretty beat as far as an objective view is concerned and you're overwhelminly happy with what you've just done. as a result, you can't hear the weaknesses as easily as the others here can. i've bounced things off of guys in here that i thought was KICK-ASS and they have thrown it back to me with 10+ solid points to construct on....after i sit with it for a while, i usually wind up agreeing with them 100% and open up cubase again. once, i actually re-recorded the entire tune from the drums on up, based on someone's crits...correction: someone's very astute crits.

 

i use this forum because i need it when i don't have someone to rehearse my tunes with and mix my record for me. i'm dissatisfied in at least one or two ways about almost every tune i have posted in here. the criticism of this place has proven to be the most helpful out of any other i've seen...hence my 1000+ posts in HC.

 

now, when my new CD comes to life, i'm going to be calling attention to it in here, but not necessarily for constructive criticism; more for just opinions a-la "i didn't like it/ i liked it"....and with any luck, there will be more of the latter!

[bluesway]

This is the only forum in HC where people seem to behave like adults; I have been hanging around in other forums and I find it so non-constructive to compliment every fart that gets posted with "well done dude!", "your axe rawks!", "what amp do you use?" blah, blah, blah... always tryng to hide behind the truth of what you really think - which - alas! - sometimes is " my god, this stuff really is not good "

+1000...especially on the 'adults' comment.

[blue2blue]

... What do you expect to learn from the praise and criticism you receive?

Basically looking for second opinions. I have my own when I look back on what I've written -- but sometimes it's hard to get the right perspective, especially when the song is brand new. (Of course, it can also be tough to get the right perspective after the song is second nature, too!)

Did the critiques meet your expectations?

When dealing with The Public, I tend to put all expectations aside. So far, that has seemed a prudent policy. I'm always gratified by any serious attempt to give an opinion.

What do you do with the criticism? Do you accept ALL comments and seriously act on them? Do you selectively accept some advice and ignore the rest? Or have you found all responses unhelpful and just ignored them all?

I absolutely try to look at all of it. And then look at all of it again, since it's easy to miss something or be "stuck" in one's own headview the first time through. Beyond that I definitely pick and choose, based on what resonates with me or provokes me to a new way of looking at things.

Do you make actual changes to your recordings and re-post them? Or do you simply accept and digest the criticism for future reference?

A little of both. I've absolutely acted on suggestions or issues brought up in "workshop" [which is what we have here, if you think about it]. But there are other times when I'll leave a putative iperfection in for ... any number of reasons from intuition to sloth.

Do you solicit critiques for everything you do or just certain songs?

Some songs feel "right" the way they're written. Sometimes I'll put them up for comment, anyhow, just to see what others see. Sometimes a song is simply so personal -- particularly those that come out all in a rush, in wholecloth, as it were -- that it's hard for me to imagine changing it even if I think another line might be "better" from some angles.

Do you ever find people criticizing what they think are mistakes/flaws but are in fact elements you deliberately put in the music because you like it that way? Do you ever find people criticizing some aspect of your song that you find totally trivial?

More the first than the latter. I think one ignores the trivial at one's own risk. But I definitely put in "provocative" elements that don't always sit well with everyone who hears them. And sometimes I do bow to reactions and change things, if I think my idiosyncratic choices are getting in the way of the song for too many folks.

Do you think the range of critiques you received are a fair representation of the general public? Or do they only represent a population of musicians? Are they representative of anything at all?

They are little flower poking up from the dung heap of... No, wait... I'm just duking around there. I'm not sure I have a way of answering that. I figure they are anecdotal. I know a little something about social science and opinion metrics -- enough to know that the kind of small samples we're talking about are not going to have much "predictive" value. But I still put weight on them. The feedback I get is... well... the feedback I get.

Does it bug you when you want help with your lyrics and all anyone will say is that the hihat's too loud?

The hi hat is ALWAYS too loud... except on those occasions when it's not loud enough.

 

I figure any sincere opinion is at least... a sincere opinon. And I'm thankful that someone too the time to listen to that 'hat...

[eagle1]

What do you expect to learn from the praise and criticism you receive?

 

A lot!

I welcome every kind of comment people want to give be it positive

or negative. I know I'm not a great player nor songwriter but the objective

of posting here is to learn. If not, then why am I here bothering your

ears!!!???

 

Did the critiques meet your expectations?

 

they meet expactations and sometimes surpass it!

The guys that know more start suggesting a bunch of things

that you might not even be aware of!

 

 

What do you do with the criticism? Do you accept ALL comments and seriously act on them? Do you selectively accept some advice and ignore the rest? Or have you found all responses unhelpful and just ignored them all?

 

I don't ignore anything.

I take all the criticism and comments and try to see why

are they saying that. Maybe I'm actually boring them with the songs,

maybe I'm out of tune, maybe the bridge is not really a bridge, maybe

I need a solo, etc... I take all in.

 

Do you make actual changes to your recordings and re-post them? Or do you simply accept and digest the criticism for future reference?

 

I did with two of them.

 

 

Do you solicit critiques for everything you do or just certain songs?

 

Certain ideas.

I never call them songs ;-)

 

 

Do you ever find people criticizing what they think are mistakes/flaws but are in fact elements you deliberately put in the music because you like it that way? Do you ever find people criticizing some aspect of your song that you find totally trivial?

 

Nope.

 

 

Do you think the range of critiques you received are a fair representation of the general public? Or do they only represent a population of musicians? Are they representative of anything at all?

 

Probably both.

For example, if I hand these songs to my co-workers here, they listen

to it and they don't notice the timing issues, the chord progression

being repeated a thousand times, etc. In here ... well it's different.

 

Does it bug you when you want help with your lyrics and all anyone will say is that the hihat's too loud?

 

Nope, it doesn't bug me at all.

Probably because I don't post much either!

[oddestmoose0]

What do you expect to learn from the praise and criticism you receive?

 

The biggest thing for me is letting someone hear it that I don't know. I let my friends and sometimes my parents hear the stuff I do but I honestly don't expect them to give me any real criticism. I just appreciate some honesty and if there are parts of a song I write that sound lame, I want to hear about it. For the most part that is what I think I've gotten from here thus far.

 

Did the critiques meet your expectations?

 

I would say they have if nothing else just because it brings a fresh perspective.

 

What do you do with the criticism? Do you accept ALL comments and

seriously act on them? Do you selectively accept some advice and

ignore the rest? Or have you found all responses unhelpful and

just ignored them all?

 

An example: The other day I posted a new song and Chicken monkey told me one of the guitar parts sounded pretty bad and I was already pretty unsure about that because it had been thrown in so I took it out. I think some comments will probably start to mean more as I become more familiar with the posters just because I will know what they thought of my previous work.

 

Do you make actual changes to your recordings and re-post them?

Or do you simply accept and digest the criticism for future reference?

 

I think if I ever record a much better version of a song I would repost it, and also if someone requested a song with one part taken out I would of course repost it.

 

Do you solicit critiques for everything you do or just certain songs?

 

I just discovered this board and I already have a lot of songs written so of course I'm not going to post every one of those but most of my new songs that I like I try and post on here. There are plenty of throwaways that will never see light

 

Do you ever find people criticizing what they think are mistakes/flaws

but are in fact elements you deliberately put in the music because you

like it that way? Do you ever find people criticizing some aspect of

your song that you find totally trivial?

 

Nah

 

Do you think the range of critiques you received are a fair

representation of the general public? Or do they only represent a

population of musicians? Are they representative of anything at all?

 

I think they are representative of people all trying to do pretty much the same thing and that is make music. This creates a little bit of a soft spot when critiquing others like yourselves but I think it's the best case scenario. People that don't write music probably aren't going to come here and just review songs, at least I'm pretty sure I wouldn't. But I think there is a good thing going on here and I'm glad I'm a part of it.

 

Does it bug you when you want help with your lyrics and all anyone

will say is that the hihat's too loud?

 

No, I haven't really asked for anything too specific as of yet so any and all suggestions have been welcomed.

[RadiationNation]

I haven't read through everyone else's responses yet (I will after I post this), but by the time I post something on here, the song is usually pretty close to what I want it to be so I'm probably not gonna make any changes based on what someone says, but it's usually more good advice for my future songwriting process. Something to think about either way, even if I don't agree with the critique.

 

Oh, and I'll also say I appreciate this forum more for the discussion on songwriting itself more than anything. I generally find myself pretty useless when it comes to making suggestions to someone else's specific song and I end up just fishing for something to praise/criticize them on. Sometimes I do actually have something useful to say, though, lol.

 

[weebz]

This one chick criticized me once. I took a picture of her after I was done with her and made it my avatar.

[famico]

they allow me to look at something quite subjective from a different perspective. sometimes things i knew were wrong with the tune come thorugh sometimes little things i missed come out. all in all every time i receive critique i try not to make the same mistake again, although this sometimes doesnt happen

[DaSpider]

 

Do you solicit critiques for everything you do or just certain songs?

 

 

I haven't posted "works in progress". I have a lot of these song ideas and fragments. Here's my process with them:

 

 

 

I posted songs that made me lyrically cringe that solicited no guffaws or even questions about content, meaning, etc. Which has made me wonder if lyrics matter much at all... but I still take it seriously.

 

As I said earlier though, since many of us are songwriters / musicians / producers / mixers, etc. there is a tendency for all of us to look at the song as a package - as a result, the critiques can come back with literally anything in them... including that too loud hi hat.

[Todzilla]

Although I'm probably not alone in overtly wanting praise, I recognize that the real value of feedback is well targeted criticism.

 

I have certainly acted on certain criticisms of my material, revamping material to address specific issues cited. I'll admit that a lot of it depends on whether or not I deem the criticism valid. In some cases, I'll think it's hooey and go about my business. However, in many cases folks are pointing out issues that were deep inside my subconscious anyway, nagging at the torments of my songwriting production soul.

 

What I usually take more to heart are production criticisms than songwriting criticisms. That may be due to having a bigger songwriting ego than production ego, but it also may be that production is less of a personal confession and slightly less of a subjective call...

 

Does this rambling make any sense?

[ChordGirl]

 

What do you expect to learn from the praise and criticism you receive?

 

 

I can hear many flaws in my own songs. Someone usually pegs them, and I do listen for ideas with the intention of revising to the best of my abilities.

 

 

What do you do with the criticism? Do you accept ALL comments and seriously act on them? Do you selectively accept some advice and ignore the rest?

 

 

I consider every criticism and then make the decision about revisions based on the advice I feel would improve the song. I have never reposted, as I've only put three songs up pretty recently. I intend to re-post more finished versions.

 

 

 

Do you solicit critiques for everything you do or just certain songs?

 

 

I fear what some of you might say about some of my alt-rock stuff! So, no. Just certain songs.

 

 

Do you think the range of critiques you received are a fair representation of the general public? Or do they only represent a population of musicians? Are they representative of anything at all?

 

 

No. But it seems enough musicians have an ear for the likings of the general public that their feedback is very helpful. There are some songs I have written that only musicians seem to like, but the general public has no interest in.

 

 

Does it bug you when you want help with your lyrics and all anyone will say is that the hihat's too loud?

 

 

 

When I get a serious recording, I would like all types of feedback. I do like comments about pitch/rhythm on my simple demos, though. It lets me know what I need to work on overall.

[Chicken Monkey]

Man, that's way too many questions for me to answer at once. I have different intentions in different posts. Sometimes I'll post a very rough demo or even a lyric if I have a particular concern, especially if I'm trying something new/stupid--can I put a bridge in between my first verse and chorus, should this song really be sung entirely in falsetto, etc. In these cases, I'll completely disregard any input that is not on point.

 

Other times, I'll post a demo of a song that I think is "finished" and ask for it to be pecked apart. In this case, I'll scoop up the pieces and reassemble them based on the criticism.

 

Often, I'll post a song that I'm done with, just to get a listener's reaction. If it is criticized, I will apply that to my craft in general, but a song that is finished is finished. Even if it's a crappy song that is finished. At some point, the editing has to stop. Usually, a finished song has been through the ringer enough to be able to stand on its own, though, so most of the criticisms are based on personal preference. The most useful kinds of advice I get during this stage are:

 

production advice--I suck at production, because of limited tools, ability, and interest

 

definition--what genre is this? which artist would I send it to? I am usually too close to a song to classify it.

 

head-inflating--I sometimes get compliments on things that I would never have thought were a strength, which allows me to focus on those strengths in the future.

[RadiationNation]

 

head-inflating--I sometimes get compliments on things that I would never have thought were a strength, which allows me to focus on those strengths in the future.

 

 

That's a good point, actually. Sometimes it's just as important to know what you're doing right as much as it is know what you're doing wrong.

[eeglug]

Wow...I didn't think this thread would take off like it has. Thank you everyone for your answers. Hopefully others have found it an entertaining and enlightening read as well.

 

i've bounced things off of guys in here that i thought was KICK-ASS and they have thrown it back to me with 10+ solid points to construct on....after i sit with it for a while, i usually wind up agreeing with them 100%...

 

I like this quote but to be perfectly honest with you, if I think something is kickass I want it to stay kickass.

[tamoore]

Good thread idea, eeglug.

 

I've been meaning to reply since I saw it, but I didn't have time to sit down and type out a response. Now that I do have time, I'm not sure I have a will to carry out my reply the way I originally envisioned it...

 

Oh well, here goes.

 

Firstly, I post songs here for review because it (the internet) is really my only outlet as an entertainer. I don't play live anymore, so this is the end of the line. I'd be lying if I said that I didn't care weather or not my musical creations are being listened to, as I made them just for that reason - to be listened to. It also gives me great joy and pride to find that some people actually like what I have created. Being that they're (you're) fellow song-crafters and musicians that I respect makes this sweeter still. So part of why I post my songs here is that there is an interested audience here, and that the feedback can often be ego enhancing.

 

Secondly, since my songs tend to be done in a spurt, and I think of them as 'moment in time' creations, I don't look for criticism on a specific song itself for the sake of making that song better. I generally make a decision to write a song one day, and by the end of the following day, I have a completed song ready to post. In my head, like an artist paints a picture, that song is 'done'. What I hope to get from criticism I receive on this song, is the ability to not repeat the same mistakes on the next song, if that makes any sense. I do make exceptions to this on some songs. The song 'Good Bye' from my album was one such tune. It starts with a 40 second long intro with acoustic guitar/vocals that sets up the 'joke', and several reviewers said that they got bored with it before the meat of the song started. So, using that info, I re-tooled the intro so it was more musically interested. A change I wouldn't have made if it wasn't for feedback from this forum, and I believe it's a better song as a result.

 

Lastly, I look for real production related info. Having multiple sets of ears listen to these songs on a variety of different playback systems can give very good feedback on mix issues which aren't working right outside of my own listening environment. I do make a lot of changes based on these reviews. While I do think in terms of the arrangement being set in stone, I don't finalize the mixes of the songs I post here until a long while after they've been recorded. I suspect that almost every one of my songs that I posted here while recording my album are quite different mix-wise on my CD than they were when they were posted.

 

I'd say that for my album, I posted 70% of the songs from it here for review. Since my album, 100% of everything I've written has come here for review.

 

I think I've grown as a songwriter due to my involvement with this forum, and the critiques I've gotten from here. For me, it's also important to realize that I've learned as much about songwriting from critiquing other peoples songs as I have from the critiques I've received. Listening to other peoples songs and deconstructing them can be a very insightful process, as you can relate mistakes, oversights, or even unadulterated brilliance that you find back to your own work, hopefully making it better.

 

Thats about it. I thought I had more to say, but can't think of it now. If I remember anything more, I'll add it...

[eeglug]

Even though I haven't put any songs for critique yet, I'll answer my own questions.

 

I am usually looking for specific comments that verify the weaknesses I hear in my work. I'm a glutton for any praise that might come as a byproduct.

 

I'm not sure what I would do with the criticism...I think it's a case by case basis kind of thing. Sometimes I feel happy with the decisions I've made and stand by them. (Many of you feel the same way and have expressed it in a variety of ways.) I guess I feel that I want to be true to the mood and inspiration that sparked the song in the first place, however flawed it may be. I do this for fun, not to sell cds or whatever so maybe this makes me less worried about going over well with 'the audience'.

 

As Todzilla said, I would be most amenable to making production changes as opposed to songwriting ones. Oh, another good one is my drum programming. I'm not a drummer so it's always helpful to hear if I program stupid drum parts - or any pointers to make the drums sound more 'natural'. I guess the same goes for my keyboard parts although my music tends to be guitar-based, so there's not a lot of keyboard work.

 

I don't think the people at this forum are representative of the public. You are all musicians and that makes your comments different from what the average perosn might think. The average joe just wouldn't even bother to listen at all.

 

 

For me, it's also important to realize that I've learned as much about songwriting from critiquing other peoples songs as I have from the critiques I've received. Listening to other peoples songs and deconstructing them can be a very insightful process, as you can relate mistakes, oversights, or even unadulterated brilliance that you find back to your own work, hopefully making it better.

 

 

How right you are. I've also learned a tremendous amount from reading others' critiques and how they respond to a piece that I've just made comments on.

[rsadasiv]

Does it bug you when you want help with your lyrics and all anyone will say is

 

Ouch. Sorry, I will try not to harp as much on production issues in the future.

 

I usually don't comment on lyrics (and almost never on lyrics without music) because, as a (lapsed/failed) fiction writer myself, lyrics matter a LOT to me and I try to avoid savaging people for no good reason. If the lyric is close to good, I may suggest some edits, and if the lyric is really, really bad I may trash it, but if the lyric is just kind of ... there I let sleeping dogs lie.

 

I do comment on production issues a lot because I think production should be an expressive element on the same order as a musical instrument, but mostly because I try to make constructive, implementable suggestions, and it is much easier to make constructive, implementable suggestions on specific, technical issues than it is to make constructive, implementable suggestions on issues like "You need to have more passion in your playing" or "The conflict in your lyric is not compelling" or "There is nothing here that grabs me".

[eeglug]

Ouch. Sorry, I will try not to harp as much on production issues in the future.

 

The question you are responding to, like all my other questions, is not directed at anyone specifically - certainly not you. I meant to say that sometimes one asks for criticism about something specific and instead gets a barrage of comments about something else.

 

I find your comments on production issues very useful so please don't stop.

[Tullsterx]

I'm a little curious about what people are getting out of posting their songs on a public forum for critique. So I lined up some questions for those of you who've done it. Think of it as the HC Songwriting Forum survey LOL:

 

What do you expect to learn from the praise and criticism you receive?

 

1. If any one else likes the song 2. Comments on production values, lyrics, hooks, melody, or anything else I haven't thought of.

 

Did the critiques meet your expectations?

 

Mostly.

 

What do you do with the criticism? Do you accept ALL comments and seriously act on them? Do you selectively accept some advice and ignore the rest? Or have you found all responses unhelpful and just ignored them all?

 

Some I disregard. Especially if they're TOTALLY WRONG. But, usually I'll think about it and accept either 1) that we disagree or that 2)I need to look into what they're saying. If it's a "diary" piece that's what I usually think. If it's a "popular" piece I usually listen more closely.

 

Do you make actual changes to your recordings and re-post them? Or do you simply accept and digest the criticism for future reference?

 

Usually digest. But, I have changed things. I don't repost them though.

 

Do you solicit critiques for everything you do or just certain songs?

 

Just certain things. I really don't think I will be posting much of my "diary" work for much criticism in the future. For that stuff I'm mainly concerned with production comments but it's easier to get production comments over here that in the recording forums, seems to me.

 

Does it bug you when you want help with your lyrics and all anyone will say is that the hihat's too loud?

 

No, that's a good comment. That's a comment I would like to get. The ride it too loud. There's too much bass. But, like I said, historically I've been searching for mixing and production comments really. Also, I'm looking for comments that I'm not expecting. . . does that make sense?

 

One thing that bugs me is when I make comments about someone's song and they come back with "No, I'm not doing that", or "No, you're wrong". That's just BS. They wanted opinions and then they come back with "You're wrong". I don't respect that at all.

 

OK, I've run out of dumb questions.