When is a lyric not a lyric?

[Stackabones]

Is it when it doesn't have music? Some lyric poetry has lost its music (the Psalms, for example, or perhaps even parts of Homer's Iliad or Odyssey).

 

Or is it enough for the writer to say, this is a lyric -- even though it hasn't lost its music or doesn't have any music at all (and may never have music).

 

A poet often thinks of a lyric in a different way than a songwriter does. A poet doesn't anticipate music being adding to his lyric, though a lyricist hopes that music will one day be an integral part of it.

 

Whatchoo think?

[popthree]

if a bird never flies, is it still a bird ?

 

dictionary.com

1. (of poetry) having the form and musical quality of a song, and esp. the character of a songlike outpouring of the poet's own thoughts and feelings, as distinguished from epic and dramatic poetry.

2. pertaining to or writing lyric poetry: a lyric poet.

3. characterized by or expressing spontaneous, direct feeling: a lyric song; lyric writing.

4. pertaining to, rendered by, or employing singing.

5. (of a voice) relatively light of volume and modest in range: a lyric soprano.

6. pertaining, adapted, or sung to the lyre, or composing poems to be sung to the lyre: ancient Greek lyric odes.

[Stackabones]

dictionary.com 1. (of poetry) having the form and musical quality of a song, and esp. the character of a songlike outpouring of the poet's own thoughts and feelings, as distinguished from epic and dramatic poetry. 2. pertaining to or writing lyric poetry: a lyric poet. 3. characterized by or expressing spontaneous, direct feeling: a lyric song; lyric writing. 4. pertaining to, rendered by, or employing singing. 5. (of a voice) relatively light of volume and modest in range: a lyric soprano. 6. pertaining, adapted, or sung to the lyre, or composing poems to be sung to the lyre: ancient Greek lyric odes.

 

That's not what you think. That's what Mr. Webster thinks. Actually, Mr. dictionary.com.

[LeonardScaper]

A lyric is prose with musical intentions.

[popthree]

Mockingbirds mocking mockingbirds.

[Stackabones]

A lyric is prose with musical intentions.

 

I've heard some art songs by Debussy that use prose as a text, but other than that ...

[kennychaffin]

If your intent here is to make my brain hurt, then it's working.

 

To me all poetry is lyrical -- i.e. it is meant to be read or performed using phrasing and meter so is inherently lyrical as opposed to prose which is structured without concern for meter pr phrasing and is intended to convey information or meaning.

 

If you remove the words from poetry you still have a rhythm, perhaps a rhyme and phrasing, which is what? A song?

 

Now, what is music? Rhythm and phrasing, perhaps "rhyme" when you add tones.

 

There is a branch of poetry that is called Narrative Poetry which is really just prose with careful word selection (to me at least and I really don't care for it).

 

So when is a lyric not a lyric? Never, it's a lyric, right?

[Stackabones]

There is a branch of poetry that is called Narrative Poetry which is really just prose with careful word selection (to me at least and I really don't care for it).

 

Typically, poetry is thought of having three main branches: lyric, narrative and dramatic. Most songs hang off the lyric branch, though they can also be narrative and dramatic. But for the purposes of HCSW and most pop songwriting ... lyric. There are notable exceptions, such as some of the character songs that usually tell a story, which could be thought of as narrative.

 

Actually, narrative poetry traditionally, and contemporarily, uses rhyme and meter (such as blank verse or heroic couplets) and forms (check Byron's Don Juan or Pushkin's Onegin), though it can use free verse. I can't recall off-hand any narrative poems that use prose, though I'm sure someone in the 20thC attempted to pull the wool over our eyes by claiming such a thing.

 

The guy who painted my avatar did graduate work on contemporary narrative poetry and published an anthology of narrative poets, so I heard a bit about it when we were in grad school together.

 

*

 

One thing I often see posted in HCSW are poems, not lyrics. Often the poems are called lyrics, though they often don't have any music written for them (though some reappear with music at a later date). Without the music, are the lyrics still considered part of the big tent of songwriting? You can have songs without words, but lyrics without music?

 

It just seems like we review poetry about as often as songs at HCSW. I have no problem with reviewing poems here -- I'm just making an observation.

[Elias Graves]

A lyric is a poem, though a poem is not necessarily a lyric (as in song lyric.)

 

To me, a song lyric in the modern popular music sense is written with a strong attention to meter and rhyme. It is often sparse, relying on he music to fill in a lot of the holes. A poet enters into the writing process knowing the lyric must stand on it's own. A songwriter of lyrics knows that the words are only a part of the overall composition.

 

Many of the lyrics we post around here are written with those senses of meter and rhyme. Alas, many never make it past that state.

 

Part of what I am presently trying to accomplish is to become a sufficiently passable musician and composer to complete my vision. The words, as difficult as thy can be, are the easy part for me. The music is killing me.

 

Many songwriters are poets at heart hoping to make it in the field of songwriting. I believe that hope is of little use. Hope is nothing more than sitting around waiting for something to happen. Nothing good happens by accident. It requires much hard work and focus.

 

EG

[kennychaffin]

.... Actually, narrative poetry traditionally, and contemporarily, uses rhyme and meter ......

 

Not the contemporary narrative "poetry" I'm referring too. No rhyme or meter to be found, more like a short story....

 

Check this:

http://geocities.com/polyphonymag/0312/poem1.htm

http://geocities.com/polyphonymag/0312/poem2.htm

 

 

[popthree]

my view is... words (lyrics, poems, prose..whatever) are words, music is music, the merging of the 2 makes songs... no offense to those who write lyrics only...or to those who write music only.. just my way of categorizing things.

[Elias Graves]

 

my view is... words (lyrics, poems, prose..whatever) are words, music is music, the merging of the 2 makes songs... no offense to those who write lyrics only...or to those who write music only.. just my way of categorizing things.

 

 

That actually works pretty well as a categorization tool.

 

Where does that leave barbershop?

 

EG

[Matximus]

 

Is it when it doesn't have music? Some lyric poetry has lost its music (the Psalms, for example, or perhaps even parts of Homer's Iliad or Odyssey ). Or is it enough for the writer to say, this is a lyric -- even though it hasn't lost its music or doesn't have any music at all (and may never have music). A poet often thinks of a lyric in a different way than a songwriter does. A poet doesn't anticipate music being adding to his lyric, though a lyricist hopes that music will one day be an integral part of it. Whatchoo think?

 

 

 

Don't think it matters really what you call it: lyric, psalm, poetry. It's all just words.

[slight-return]

The guy who painted my avatar did graduate work on contemporary narrative poetry and published an anthology of narrative poets, so I heard a bit about it when we were in grad school together.

 

course that's the rub - we've already eschewed appeal to authority for individual interpretation

 

That's not what you think. That's what Mr. Webster thinks. Actually, Mr. dictionary.com. :poke:

 

 

... :poke:

[popthree]

That actually works pretty well as a categorization tool. Where does that leave barbershop? EG

barbershop... as in barbershop quartet ? isn't that music and lyric combined ? i'd go with song

[kennychaffin]

 

barbershop... as in barbershop quartet ? isn't that music and lyric combined ? i'd go with song

 

 

+1

 

If it's sung, even a-Capella then it has music associated with it and is both so yeah a song.

[Stackabones]

course that's the rub - we've already eschewed appeal to authority for individual interpretation That's not what you think. That's what Mr. Webster thinks. Actually, Mr. dictionary.com. :poke: ... :poke:

 

[Elias Graves]

 

barbershop... as in barbershop quartet ? isn't that music and lyric combined ? i'd go with song

 

 

I would have to agree. Just having some fun. I guess I should have given you one of these.:poke:

 

EG

[Stackabones]

Not the contemporary narrative "poetry" I'm referring too. No rhyme or meter to be found, more like a short story.... Check this: http://geocities.com/polyphonymag/0312/poem1.htm http://geocities.com/polyphonymag/0312/poem2.htm

 

Yeah, I've read my share of that -- as well as the critical theory that goes behind it.

 

There are some really good contemporary narrative poems out there, but you've got to poke around. It's cool that songwriters never really gave up on telling a good story with meter and rhyme, and there were a few poets who held out and keep their ears tuned to form during the dark ages of the late 20thC. It's turning around.

[kennychaffin]

Yeah, I've read my share of that -- as well as the critical theory that goes behind it. There are some really good contemporary narrative poems out there, but you've got to poke around. It's cool that songwriters never really gave up on telling a good story with meter and rhyme, and there were a few poets who held out and keep their ears tuned to form during the dark ages of the late 20thC. It's turning around.

 

Yep. I've read a few that are good, though I tend to prefer shorter pieces myself. There is definitely some great contemporary poetry but it doesn't seem to get much exposure and requires considerable work on the part of the reader to find it.

[Stackabones]

 

Yep. I've read a few that are good, though I tend to prefer shorter pieces myself.

 

 

Prefer shorter narratives, or just shorter poems?

[kennychaffin]

Prefer shorter narratives, or just shorter poems?

 

Uh....yes.

 

My thoughts about poems are that they should be as long as a piece of string, just long enough to get the job.

[Stackabones]

Uh....yes. My thoughts about poems are that they should be as long as a piece of string, just long enough to get the job.

 

So I take it you are no fan of Chaucer, Shakespeare, Dante, Homer, Virgil? :poke:

[kennychaffin]

Only the good parts. Shakespeare is a different creature all together though.

 

See my poetry page for further detail, favorites, etc.

 

Now see what you've done, you've got me off surfing the web, catching up on all kinds of poetry related krapola!

[Stackabones]