Members Fat Albert Posted October 7, 2009 Members Share Posted October 7, 2009 Hey guys, Posted this in the Amp Forum and gotten some very good responses, but figure it'd be appropriate to post this here as well for additional thoughts - and perhaps it might be useful to some of you here as well. http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?t=2455590 Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chicken Monkey Posted October 7, 2009 Members Share Posted October 7, 2009 Boy, the folks in amps don't know dick. It'll get muddy if you want to record them, but there's nothing he can do to keep you from playing the songs live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stackabones Posted October 7, 2009 Members Share Posted October 7, 2009 If there is money involved right now, retain a lawyer. By money, I mean millions and MTV and Billboard charts ... not barband weekend gig money. If there is no money involved right now, write new songs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Matximus Posted October 7, 2009 Members Share Posted October 7, 2009 Yeah... you're going to stir up a hornets nest of misinformation and lazy speculation with any forum post concerning copyrighting. Your post is no exception. I say 99% of these cases are utter nonsense: amatuer and struggling musicians haggling over ownership of a property that has zero monetary value. They're really just a bunch of deluded swinging dicks, you know what I mean? Still, I can't resist joining the buzz... I'm no expert either, but here are the basics as I understand them: If this guy had a hand in authoring an original work and committing it to fixed media, he has a legitimate copyright claim. That means he could be legally entitled to any money you make from the work, whether selling it in CD format and, yes, performing it live. Can he stop you? Of course not. You guys are owners of the work too. But whoever said he can't do squat if he hasn't registered a copyright doesn't know what he's talking about. Registering a copyright is a legal formality. The copyright was created the second the original work was committed to a fixed form, which can be a recording or transcription, among other things. As a former member of the band whom you said helped arrange these songs, it sounds like he has firm ground to challenge a registered copyright. Of course, you can sue right back and argue he didn't do a damn thing but lay down the track you told him to. Now keep it in perspective. Are you really going to make serious dough from this work? Is this guy going to arm himself with lawyers to ensure he gets his fair share of any money the work brings in? This can probably all be ironed out if you guy sit down and hash things out like men. http://www.bmi.com/career/entry/533748http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ01.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bodyguard2112 Posted October 7, 2009 Members Share Posted October 7, 2009 My understanding is that the lyrics count as half and the melody (how the words are sung) is the other half. Meaning if someone wrote melody and lyrics, and the other guy wrote music, that the first guy owns 100%. Unless of course they agreed to something else between them. Now, ownership of a recording of a song, that is different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chicken Monkey Posted October 7, 2009 Members Share Posted October 7, 2009 Yeah... you're going to stir up a hornets nest of misinformation and lazy speculation with any forum post concerning copyrighting. Your post is no exception. I say 99% of these cases are utter nonsense: amatuer and struggling musicians haggling over ownership of a property that has zero monetary value. They're really just a bunch of deluded swinging dicks, you know what I mean? Still, I can't resist joining the buzz... I'm no expert either, but here are the basics as I understand them: If this guy had a hand in authoring an original work and committing it to fixed media, he has a legitimate copyright claim. That means he could be legally entitled to any money you make from the work, whether selling it in CD format and, yes, performing it live. Can he stop you? Of course not. You guys are owners of the work too. But whoever said he can't do squat if he hasn't registered a copyright doesn't know what he's talking about. Registering a copyright is a legal formality. The copyright was created the second the original work was committed to a fixed form, which can be a recording or transcription, among other things. As a former member of the band whom you said helped arrange these songs, it sounds like he has firm ground to challenge a registered copyright. Of course, you can sue right back and argue he didn't do a damn thing but lay down the track you told him to. Now keep it in perspective. Are you really going to make serious dough from this work? Is this guy going to arm himself with lawyers to ensure he gets his fair share of any money the work brings in? This can probably all be ironed out if you guy sit down and hash things out like men. http://www.bmi.com/career/entry/533748http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ01.pdf As long as they're only performing these songs, none of this matters. Yes, I suppose the bar owner is sending some performance money to ASCAP/BMI or whatever, but performance royalties are negligible in these situations. Owning a copyright on something doesn't mean you control who plays your song live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Matximus Posted October 8, 2009 Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 As long as they're only performing these songs, none of this matters. Yes, I suppose the bar owner is sending some performance money to ASCAP/BMI or whatever, but performance royalties are negligible in these situations. Owning a copyright on something doesn't mean you control who plays your song live. I think it does, actually. I could be wrong. I don't understand this stuff completely, but here's what the copyright office says: Section 106 of the 1976 Copyright Act generally gives the owner of copyright the exclusive right to do and to authorize others to do the following: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rsadasiv Posted October 8, 2009 Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 You own the copyright, but you are required to grant a performance license to anyone who wants it for the statutory fee (which is what BMI/ASCAP collect). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chicken Monkey Posted October 8, 2009 Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 You own the copyright, but you are required to grant a performance license to anyone who wants it for the statutory fee (which is what BMI/ASCAP collect). So on a practical level, there's nothing to keep them from performing the songs--it all should take place between ASCAP and the venue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rsadasiv Posted October 8, 2009 Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 So on a practical level, there's nothing to keep them from performing the songs--it all should take place between ASCAP and the venue. IANAL, but yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chicken Monkey Posted October 8, 2009 Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 IANAL I suggested my wife get this as a vanity plate when she left her firm, and she made me sleep on the couch for a week. WTF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cazual Posted October 8, 2009 Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 I say 99% of these cases are utter nonsense: amatuer and struggling musicians haggling over ownership of a property that has zero monetary value. They're really just a bunch of deluded swinging dicks, you know what I mean? Still, I can't resist joining the buzz... I'm no expert either, but here are the basics as I understand them: If this guy had a hand in authoring an original work and committing it to fixed media, he has a legitimate copyright claim. That means he could be legally entitled to any money you make from the work, whether selling it in CD format and, yes, performing it live. Can he stop you? Of course not. You guys are owners of the work too. But whoever said he can't do squat if he hasn't registered a copyright doesn't know what he's talking about. Registering a copyright is a legal formality. The copyright was created the second the original work was committed to a fixed form, which can be a recording or transcription, among other things. +1 Plus, no matter who registers what, or takes what steps, they are all just claims. They are not proof of either genuine authorship or cast-iron legal ownership. In cases of dispute about creation and ownership, the only way to establish who gets what is to thrash it out in court. There is no guarantee that the parties will accept that the outcome of such a process will be accurate or fair either. The bottom line is - as Matximus pointed out - that in 99% of cases there's nothing of any real value to argue about. It's just a pissing contest that nobody else gives a damn about the outcome of. The usual recommendations are: 1) Get a lawyer 2) Get over it. In real life, No. 2 is generally the wiser option. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stackabones Posted October 9, 2009 Members Share Posted October 9, 2009 I suggested my wife get this as a vanity plate when she left her firm, and she made me sleep on the couch for a week. WTF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted October 9, 2009 Members Share Posted October 9, 2009 Boy, the folks in amps don't know dick. No kidding! Man, I don't think I've ever seen more bad information and advice in one thread. One guy even advocated the 'poor man's copyright'. I didn't think there was anyone left on the planet who still put stock in that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stackabones Posted October 9, 2009 Members Share Posted October 9, 2009 No kidding! Man, I don't think I've ever seen more bad information and advice in one thread. One guy even advocated the 'poor man's copyright'. I didn't think there was anyone left on the planet who still put stock in that. It still comes up in this neck of the woods. It's addressed on the Copyright Office website, but it still has urban legend currency: My brother's friend is a lawyer and he says all ya gotta do is mail it to yourself and it'll hold up in court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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