America is the country with the richest individuals...

[HKSblade1]

Since when do we use some {censored} hole as the basis from which to compare and gauge America?

 

 

why do we always compare the haves and have nots? why do we always compare the urban community to a suburban community?

 

what I'm saying is our poverty level is nothing near what other countries consider bare bones survival.

 

I have band mates that make more and less than I do. I have neighbors the same. We have different family situations and some made better financial decisions. I don't expect the guys that earn more than me with less kids than me to pay for my way in life. They earned theirs as much as I did mine. Some even choose to travel more or work extended hours. I don't.

 

I can't stand class envy. Some are more fortunate, some bust their ass to get there, some LEARN in school and promote themselves in education, some would rather stay on entitlements. Whatever the case, you earned it is how I see it.

[Phishmonkey]

why do we always compare the haves and have nots? why do we always compare the urban community to a suburban community? what I'm saying is our poverty level is nothing near what other countries consider bare bones survival. I have band mates that make more and less than I do. I have neighbors the same. We have different family situations and some made better financial decisions. I don't expect the guys that earn more than me with less kids than me to pay for my way in life. They earned theirs as much as I did mine. Some even choose to travel more or work extended hours. I don't. I can't stand class envy. Some are more fortunate, some bust their ass to get there, some LEARN in school and promote themselves in education, some would rather stay on entitlements. Whatever the case, you earned it is how I see it.

 

 

You don't think a fifth of the country having negative equity is a problem? Hows that going to factor into kids futures?

[fatfat]

why do we always compare the haves and have nots? why do we always compare the urban community to a suburban community? what I'm saying is our poverty level is nothing near what other countries consider bare bones survival. I have band mates that make more and less than I do. I have neighbors the same. We have different family situations and some made better financial decisions. I don't expect the guys that earn more than me with less kids than me to pay for my way in life. They earned theirs as much as I did mine. Some even choose to travel more or work extended hours. I don't. I can't stand class envy. Some are more fortunate, some bust their ass to get there, some LEARN in school and promote themselves in education, some would rather stay on entitlements. Whatever the case, you earned it is how I see it.

People are just jealous. And not everyone "earns" it (some have it handed to them) -- but this is life, where some (most?) things aren't fair... get over it.

[JBecker]

I can't stand class envy. Some are more fortunate, some bust their ass to get there, some LEARN in school and promote themselves in education, some would rather stay on entitlements. Whatever the case, you earned it is how I see it.

 

 

Does everyone have the same opportunity to earn it on their own hard work and merit?

[HKSblade1]

You don't think a fifth of the country having negative equity is a problem? Hows that going to factor into kids futures?

 

 

Sure I do, but again whose fault is it?

 

Look how many repo cars there are .. same {censored}. In over your heads or you just never could have really afforded it and bought it anyway. My parents blasted my Bro for buying a house he couldn't afford. He wanted the big house and went with it. Now it's worth maybe 70% of the note he has on it.

 

For decades it was like this for people. This didn't happen over night and you can blame purchasers, Govt and banks all day long, but nobody stuck a gun to the heads of these people in hock either and forced them into the predicaments.

 

One of those if it looks too good, it probably isn't things that so many people went all out on.

 

Friend of mine's kid gets engaged.. his fiance picks out 10,000+ ring. She does not have but a HS education and he earns maybe 30K/yr.

 

people make stupid financial decisions for sole purpose of WANT vs NEED.

 

I'm actually glad to see the banks and lenders having to scrutinize and wanting documented pay stubs/financial records instead of basic word of mouth like it was.

[HKSblade1]

Does everyone have the same opportunity to earn it on their own hard work and merit?

 

 

 

It all depends. Some can find ways of taking on their own work ethic and merit or achievements to change their standards. Some do not have as many opportunities. I went to college with many who squandered away their meal ticket like dumb asses they were. I paid my way working 40+ hrs and going to school full time or nights at a CC. Others went for free. I didnt bitch!

 

I grew up knowing I was not born with entitlements. I had many school mates that thought otherwise. Post CC I went for my BSEE and took out loans I had to pay back in 5 yrs time. Wasn't easy. I drove a POS car to get from A to B and it took me a good 10 years until I earned at a level I wanted for myself.

 

My earnings were cut from having made a decision to get married and have a family and those obligations. Some of my friends had only one or two kids and have nice cars, boat, go on trips. I can't. They have far more investments than I was capable of having.

 

You have to do what is best for you. I believe in a fair and honest living and I also have interests and hobbies and I pay my way entirely. If I can't afford something, I don't get it. I save up for it. May not be the best, but it works and I can feel great knowing I'm not party to the problem. Years ago was in debt huge! My MIL was ill and we paid her way best we could until she passed. Took CC's to do it, but we paid them all back and made ZERO want type purchases for 6 years. Lost my job of 18 yrs in Jan 09... found another at far less pay but manage. Sold my old home and went to something more conducive to the wage I earn.

[Phishmonkey]

 

Sure I do, but again whose fault is it? Look how many repo cars there are .. same {censored}. In over your heads or you just never could have really afforded it and bought it anyway. My parents blasted my Bro for buying a house he couldn't afford. He wanted the big house and went with it. Now it's worth maybe 70% of the note he has on it. For decades it was like this for people. This didn't happen over night and you can blame purchasers, Govt and banks all day long, but nobody stuck a gun to the heads of these people in hock either and forced them into the predicaments. One of those if it looks too good, it probably isn't things that so many people went all out on. Friend of mine's kid gets engaged.. his fiance picks out 10,000+ ring. She does not have but a HS education and he earns maybe 30K/yr. people make stupid financial decisions for sole purpose of WANT vs NEED. I'm actually glad to see the banks and lenders having to scrutinize and wanting documented pay stubs/financial records instead of basic word of mouth like it was.

 

 

Yes, people are stupid. But why take action that encourages stupid behavior? Why not set credit standards that prevent these people from buying homes they can't afford? Why not actually use the SEC to prevent unscrupulous bankers from gambling with money they don't have? Sitting back and saying "They really should have made better decisions" after the fact does nothing for us.

 

Also, its not as if peoples' irresponsible actions only affect themselves. What about all the people who lost massive amounts of money they had put away for retirement. Yeah, yeah, personal responsibility, they should keep track of their investments. But it is really reasonable to think that a high school teacher who's busy grading papers, writing tests, and preparing for class, should be more knowledgeable about finance than the investment bankers handling her 401k? We need to base economic decisions on how things are, not how they should be

 

And disparity doesn't just affect the bottom 20%, it affects the whole country. Look at the great depression, it was largely the result of too much wealth in the hands of too few. While we probably won't see the same problems we did then, its risky to hand over the country's wealth in to one group of people and just hope they act in a way that benefits the economy

[Captain Commie]

The problem with all economic systems is that try as they might to redistribute wealth, it always has a tendancy to cluster at the top with a select few. The simple truth is, people are not all created equal. There will always be a more clever, more charismatic or luckier person who will manage to hoard a larger portion of the wealth. I've reached the conclusion its not worth it trying to fight it. Its just human nature.

I'd just rather have the freedom to make my own choices on how to spend my money than to have someone else say they know how to spend it for me.

[HKSblade1]

Yes, people are stupid. But why take action that encourages stupid behavior? Why not set credit standards that prevent these people from buying homes they can't afford? Why not actually use the SEC to prevent unscrupulous bankers from gambling with money they don't have? Sitting back and saying "They really should have made better decisions" after the fact does nothing for us. Also, its not as if peoples' irresponsible actions only affect themselves. What about all the people who lost massive amounts of money they had put away for retirement. Yeah, yeah, personal responsibility, they should keep track of their investments. But it is really reasonable to think that a high school teacher who's busy grading papers, writing tests, and preparing for class, should be more knowledgeable about finance than the investment bankers handling her 401k? We need to base economic decisions on how things are, not how they should be And disparity doesn't just affect the bottom 20%, it affects the whole country. Look at the great depression, it was largely the result of too much wealth in the hands of too few. While we probably won't see the same problems we did then, its risky to hand over the country's wealth in to one group of people and just hope they act in a way that benefits the economy

 

 

I agree completely. I will add though since many at my work place ran themselves in a hole with this and even said "I should have known better"

 

people blindly doing stupid {censored} and letting the Govt do stupid {censored} (TARP) is not the answer imo. Look what happened. We tossed Billions into the wind and gained nothing for it. The costs are enormous and we have no means of supporting the paper it's on. China can't foot the bill forever either.

 

we let Congress pass a spending bill on a whim. nobody knows what or where the billions spent is going. that's our money, not theirs. they are doing all that was wrong, like the public over extending on credit for decades.

vast majority of people don't care. It sounds good maybe, but will certainly lead to worse. I pity the generations of kids that have to pay this back.. and it isn't over yet.

 

It's not the dude in the Oval Office, its the same irresponsible people in both ends of congress with 4-5 terms or more that are the most corrupt and irresponsible of all.. and people re-elect those that have screwed them for years. Oval Office is not the answer.. we are.

[Phishmonkey]

 

The problem with all economic systems is that try as they might to redistribute wealth, it always has a tendancy to cluster at the top with a select few. The simple truth is, people are not all created equal. There will always be a more clever, more charismatic or luckier person who will manage to hoard a larger portion of the wealth. I've reached the conclusion its not worth it trying to fight it. Its just human nature. I'd just rather have the freedom to make my own choices on how to spend my money than to have someone else say they know how to spend it for me.

 

 

While there will always be an upper class and a lower class, government action clearly has the power to tip the scales one way or another. Look at how Andrew Mellons tax policies affected the country during the 1920s

 

Also, like it or not someone will always be telling you how to spend your money. Taxes will affect how much money people earn, and credit standards will affect what they do with it. And its not like we'd gain economic freedom by abolishing the treasury, you'd just have a bunch of bankers in charge instead of the government

[Phishmonkey]

I agree completely. I will add though since many at my work place ran themselves in a hole with this and even said "I should have known better" people blindly doing stupid {censored} and letting the Govt do stupid {censored} (TARP) is not the answer imo. Look what happened. We tossed Billions into the wind and gained nothing for it. The costs are enormous and we have no means of supporting the paper it's on. China can't foot the bill forever either. we let Congress pass a spending bill on a whim. nobody knows what or where the billions spent is going. that's our money, not theirs. they are doing all that was wrong, like the public over extending on credit for decades. vast majority of people don't care. It sounds good maybe, but will certainly lead to worse. I pity the generations of kids that have to pay this back.. and it isn't over yet. It's not the dude in the Oval Office, its the same irresponsible people in both ends of congress with 4-5 terms or more that are the most corrupt and irresponsible of all.. and people re-elect those that have screwed them for years. Oval Office is not the answer.. we are.

The problem is that there has never been a 100% successful method of dealing with the immediate consequences of a financial panic. But at the same time, sitting back and doing nothing would be totally unacceptable to the public

But I totally agree with you that Congress {censored}ed up big time. While we needed fast action, thats no excuse for the total lack of oversight in determining exactly where the bailout money went. If only people would get mad about that instead of planning Tea Parties and trying to lynch bank employees who did nothing but receive the bonuses entitled to them

[HKSblade1]

The problem is that there has never been a 100% successful method of dealing with the immediate consequences of a financial panic. But at the same time, sitting back and doing nothing would be totally unacceptable to the public But I totally agree with you that Congress {censored}ed up big time. While we needed fast action, thats no excuse for the total lack of oversight in determining exactly where the bailout money went. If only people would get mad about that instead of planning Tea Parties and trying to lynch bank employees who did nothing but receive the bonuses entitled to them

what irks me is the same f-tards in Cong are the ones that approved of the other BS with CEO crap for failed businesses but took ZERO accountability for their own actions. They threw the companies under the bus while posturing like some bad asses (meanwhile whispering to ceo's.. you'll get your money, but we have to make this look good for CSPAN).

I sincerely hope that people realize the dumb {censored}ery in Cong and vote incumbents out during Mid terms. At this point, I'm like many who felt the depression and did not trust the govt for {censored}.

[Captain Commie]

While there will always be an upper class and a lower class, government action clearly has the power to tip the scales one way or another. Look at how Andrew Mellons tax policies affected the country during the 1920s Also, like it or not someone will always be telling you how to spend your money. Taxes will affect how much money people earn, and credit standards will affect what they do with it. And its not like we'd gain economic freedom by abolishing the treasury, you'd just have a bunch of bankers in charge instead of the government

 

 

Andrew mellons tax policies had a rather good effect on the country from what I remember. Infact, if my memory serves me correct he set up the whole system of tax writeoffs for chairitable donations. Part of the problem with what happened during the 20's was also a culmination of the effects of the end off WWI and other stock buying practices. I would argue that the tax cuts actualy had a rather positive effect. The only deragitory tax policy I remember was the protective tarriffs enacted after the stock crash.

[HKSblade1]

Andrew mellons tax policies had a rather good effect on the country from what I remember. Infact, if my memory serves me correct he set up the whole system of tax writeoffs for chairitable donations. Part of the problem with what happened during the 20's was also a culmination of the effects of the end off WWI and other stock buying practices. I would argue that the tax cuts actualy had a rather positive effect. The only deragitory tax policy I remember was the protective tarriffs enacted after the stock crash.

 

 

also consider there was 1/3 the total population at that time than we have now. seriously a major factor

[Hung Over]

This thread deserves to die or be moved. I can't take anymore!!!!

[Phishmonkey]

 

Andrew mellons tax policies had a rather good effect on the country from what I remember. Infact, if my memory serves me correct he set up the whole system of tax writeoffs for chairitable donations. Part of the problem with what happened during the 20's was also a culmination of the effects of the end off WWI and other stock buying practices. I would argue that the tax cuts actualy had a rather positive effect. The only deragitory tax policy I remember was the protective tarriffs enacted after the stock crash.

 

 

I sold off all my US History books, so I can't give you statistics, but his tax cuts disproportionally benefited the wealthy and big business. He cut taxes uniformly, but didn't account for the fact that taxing 30% of a factory workers income isn't the same as taxing 30% of some rich railroad tycoons income. This shifted the burden to the lower and middle classes, which had some disastrous effects down the road. We ended up with massive underconsumption. One rich person buying a cadillac doesn't account for the thousands of middle class workers not buying cars

 

So, yes, Mellons policies initially benefited the economy, but they had serious consequences down the road

[mhr74]

My old band mate used to say how poor he was/is. Lived with 5-6 different HOTT girls Has Explorers, LP's, Jems, ESP, Martin and Ovation guitars- (12 total) Has Diezel, Soldano and Marshall amps and cabs. plethora of stomp pedals and a rack loaded. never worked a regular job fro more than a year. always fast food or some bs job. no post education. I said, compare that to some {censored} holes in the world and people beating the {censored} out of each other for a bag of flour off a truck.

ah, someone with perspective

[K-Bizzle]

ah, someone with perspective

How is that perspective?

Wealth is relative to your local not the 3rd world.

[HKSblade1]

How is that perspective? Wealth is relative to your local not the 3rd world.

 

 

All you have to do is look around. There are more middle class communities than there are urban, rural, or mansions. We don't have the peasant and the royalty although some may think so.

 

Go to urban or some rural areas and notice the similarities. Go to middle class communities (suburban) and see the levels of peoples desire to maintain what they do have. It's far different than the other two classes on both the appreciation level and work ethic.

[marshallnoise]

If you want to have a war of words, I'll gladly feud with you on the political discussion forum.

Why? So a bunch of queens can beat up on me? the Political Party is gang rape central for anyone who doesn't march to the beat of their drum.

[marshallnoise]

The problem with all economic systems is that try as they might to redistribute wealth, it always has a tendancy to cluster at the top with a select few. The simple truth is, people are not all created equal. There will always be a more clever, more charismatic or luckier person who will manage to hoard a larger portion of the wealth. I've reached the conclusion its not worth it trying to fight it. Its just human nature. I'd just rather have the freedom to make my own choices on how to spend my money than to have someone else say they know how to spend it for me.

Absofreakingloutly.

I don't think we should hand cuff people who take huge risks just because some idiot will run in there and try to do the same thing, ill prepared. If you take the opportunity (risk) away, then no one will be able to get the reward.

Now, if you don't like people getting rewarded for their risk, then you simply do not belong in this country. (Rhetorical statement.)

[HKSblade1]

Absofreakingloutly. I don't think we should hand cuff people who take huge risks just because some idiot will run in there and try to do the same thing, ill prepared. If you take the opportunity (risk) away, then no one will be able to get the reward. Now, if you don't like people getting rewarded for their risk, then you simply do not belong in this country. (Rhetorical statement.)

our media thrives off the envy and jealousy and pitting one side vs another

people will sit and watch tv and bitch, but not do anything about it. neighbor gets a new car, and they whine. maybe the neighbor has less obligations than you do. so what, is he supposed to pay for yours? if you take on more than you can handle that's your choice, not his... so stfu!

My son was pissed off he didn't have an Xbox and other kids did. I said go mow some lawns and help people in their yard. He said nobody would let him. I walked him around and met my new neighbors. I introduced him and said my 13 yr old would like to earn some money helping with chores. In one afternoon, he picked up 4 mowing jobs and has earned more than $500 to date. He doesn't want the Xbox that bad.

[marshallnoise]

I sold off all my US History books, so I can't give you statistics, but his tax cuts disproportionally benefited the wealthy and big business. He cut taxes uniformly, but didn't account for the fact that taxing 30% of a factory workers income isn't the same as taxing 30% of some rich railroad tycoons income. This shifted the burden to the lower and middle classes, which had some disastrous effects down the road. We ended up with massive underconsumption. One rich person buying a cadillac doesn't account for the thousands of middle class workers not buying cars So, yes, Mellons policies initially benefited the economy, but they had serious consequences down the road

 

 

Ah, no. A proportional tax cut is the only right way to give a tax cut.

 

Why should a railroad tycoon pay more of a percentage of his income than the person he employs? A fair share is exactly that: a percentage of the pie regardless of how big the pie is.

 

When the playing field is even, then people will strive to be their best. But if you penalize people more for succeeding, then you take all incentive away.

 

It is a simple equation of diminishing returns. Why work harder, longer, and with more innovation if the reward is less than proportionate?

 

And that is simply the truth.

[marshallnoise]

our media thrives off the envy and jealousy and pitting one side vs another people will sit and watch tv and bitch, but not do anything about it. neighbor gets a new car, and they whine. maybe the neighbor has less obligations than you do. so what, is he supposed to pay for yours? if you take on more than you can handle that's your choice, not his... so stfu! My son was pissed off he didn't have an Xbox and other kids did. I said go mow some lawns and help people in their yard. He said nobody would let him. I walked him around and met my new neighbors. I introduced him and said my 13 yr old would like to earn some money helping with chores. In one afternoon, he picked up 4 mowing jobs and has earned more than $500 to date. He doesn't want the Xbox that bad.

Thanks for being a good dad and teaching your son that he has to earn what he wants.

We most always come to the conclusion that when we work hard for something, we want to spend those proceeds carefully. And this is considered stingy and selfish by some. Those people who think this obviously never had to earn a damn thing.

[K-Bizzle]

All you have to do is look around. There are more middle class communities than there are urban, rural, or mansions. We don't have the peasant and the royalty although some may think so. Go to urban or some rural areas and notice the similarities. Go to middle class communities (suburban) and see the levels of peoples desire to maintain what they do have. It's far different than the other two classes on both the appreciation level and work ethic.

 

 

Ok?

 

I don't see where we're seeing things differently?