Any of you guys here teach?

[Yarbicus]

I am mixed about unions. For instance, I am a member of a teachers union but am almost completely ignored because I don't teach K-12.

[Skunx]

This is how contract negotiations work from my point of view.

1.)The company makes a list of the things they want us to concede from the previous agreements. These are are generally protections involved to either protect quality of life for employees or protect jobs between crafts. For example if we are forced do someone else's job from another craft for whatever reason we get paid. If the company holds me at my away from home terminal for longer than allowed by the contract I get paid. So on and so forth. The company wants to get rid of these and when they construct the new agreement they bargain these away. Generally, we get nothing for these.

 

2.) The union takes the companies demands and makes counter offers or concessions to the company according to what the members want or do not want to give up.

 

3.) If they don't agree it goes to mediation.

 

4.) Once it goes to mediation or a tentative agreement is made we vote on it.

 

It's a long process. Contracts generally last for 5 years and I am still working under the July 2005 agreement. Some older employees get payments for things that the younger guys don't for jobs that have been given up over time. It's a cluster{censored} pretty much and the government has made it even worse with the Rail Safety Improvement Act.

I can understand a lot of people's disgust of unions. The UAW has gone seemingly unchecked for decades and the higher ups seem to be pocketing the profits paid for in their workers jobs. I feel big business should shoulder some of this blame. They also sign these contracts, then export jobs to prevent being bound by them, and cry poor mouth to the feds.

 

A lot of company culture, even though from the outside it may not seem so, is not far removed from the 1930's mindset.

 

I know I feel better in my field having that bit of added union protection, despite the public opinion we are just lazy, whiny good for nothing drains on society.

[Skunx]

 

I am mixed about unions. For instance, I am a member of a teachers union but am almost completely ignored because I don't teach K-12.

 

 

Why are you being ignored? Do you have regular contact with your local or do you just pay dues? My wife opted not to join the teacher's union here in AZ because they do absolutely nothing accept collect dues. They will not even offer contract support or assistance if she were to get terminated.

[HKSblade1]

It's tough, because the best way would be to make teaching as a career more competitive, so that the best would rise to the top and the worst would get edged out. However, given that teachers ultimately have fairly little control over the learning their students choose to do (or not do) ~ especially in this broken system ~ how do we find a *fair* and *accurate* way of measuring teacher performance? Just looking at student test scores does not give an accurate indication...

 

I have fam members who teach in other states and another very good friend who teaches here locally.

 

I have gone toe to toe with them on a number of occasions when they cry fowl. I'm sorry but to say their job is so demanding is total bull{censored}. They can pass on a kid with FFFF's and a D, and they do it all the time. There is next to zero accountability in the public school system. Very different in the private system.

 

Who is failing? The kid is. Why? who {censored}ing knows. The kid, parents, teachers, the kids friends.. all are in the loop. One {censored} up, and it goes to hell. The best teacher can't teach the worse kid. The best parenting can't stop the kid from bad decisions. Schools not providing immediate feedback on performance cannot aid parents...etc. No win.. and many to blame. At least this is what both, the teachers and parents have said at these meetings.

 

Changes need to me made. Unions and their demands have to be countered and they need to make cuts just like everybody else. I've already stated pay rates for local educators and ludicrous pay for admin and staff (non union) here. They fear this "we'll run out of money" game every {censored}ing year. It's an ad campaign for a new levy. Push is coming to shove and this bull{censored} needs to stop. By all accounts, teachers and their staff have had it pretty gatt damn easy.

 

They all claim the same underpaid bull{censored} though. They need to look at the worth of their benefit packages and STFU imo. Even union auto workers and rocket engine designers never got that cushy of a pension plan!! Those workers are obligated to product a product. Teachers are not.

 

I'm not saying teaching is easy, but this zomg teacher pay sucks has to quit. The public is only told the basic salary for obvious reasons. Most of levy income lately has been to pay ridiculously high pensions. It's this kind of stuff states are looking at that have to be addressed. A school system cannot shell out 1/4 or more of it's income from resources in pensions and benefits. In some districts like mine, 39% of income is going towards those things. This is why new concrete is not poured, no new text books are bought (as promised) and the old buses are still old. Those levies basically paid for pensions and union contracted guaranteed benefits.

 

Teachers teach because they want to. Many teach and marry someone in another profession and teacher income and benefits is supplemental. This even saves the spouse a ton of co pay health care and other expenses. I said it before, there are married teachers I know that will retire with nearly 7 grand/month in pensions. Show me any other basic worker with even a 75k salary have that kind of retirement income! One of my co workers wife was a teacher in Cali. 8 years in she was earning more than my associate IT worker. He opted out of any health care etc which saved them on avg $6200/year because her plan was 100% medical, dental, eye care, etc.

 

There are RN's and other professions far more demanding that pay even less. Their health care is not paid for like teachers are, they do not have cushy retirement options either. They certainly are judged by performance. In some cases are even liable to their patients, treatment of family members etc. Avg RN salary is 42k for 5 years experience. Avg teacher salary is 40k with close to 15k/yr in benefits. Plus they only work partial year. RN is considered much more stressful and demanding by all accounts. Yet the pay difference is marginal. A teacher can earn nearly double their salary just in tenure alone. That will never happen for an RN.

 

Teachers really need to look at this and stop saying they have it so bad. I think that's the point some are driving at. The bottom line is cuts need made everywhere. My job and pay was cut, so are many others. A simple cut is a sacrifice. Some career options you do not have a choice at all. Unions need to show the same sacrifices.

 

When teachers/ unions do not make these cuts, everyones tax rate has to go up. Do they care? Not at all. They have not proven otherwise.

[Yarbicus]

 

Why are you being ignored? Do you have regular contact with your local or do you just pay dues? My wife opted not to join the teacher's union here in AZ because they do absolutely nothing accept collect dues. They will not even offer contract support or assistance if she were to get terminated.

 

 

We get ignored because K-12 teachers make up 90% of the members. Plus, the public really only pays attention to K-12 education issues. We do get a rep at our bargaining sessions but she clearly has bigger fish to fry. We have to be members but I would much rather take that money and just put a lawyer on retainer for our issues.

[Yarbicus]

There are RN's and other professions far more demanding that pay even less. Their health care is not paid for like teachers are, they do not have cushy retirement options either. They certainly are judged by performance. In some cases are even liable to their patients, treatment of family members etc. Avg RN salary is 42k for 5 years experience. Avg teacher salary is 40k with close to 15k/yr in benefits. Plus they only work partial year. RN is considered much more stressful and demanding by all accounts. Yet the pay difference is marginal. A teacher can earn nearly double their salary just in tenure alone. That will never happen for an RN.

 

Guess what my wife does for a living?

She has always made more money than. Even now she only works 1/2 time and makes only a little less than I do. Of course, there is a worldwide nursing shortage so she is a bit more in demand.

[Skunx]

 

I have fam members...

 

 

My wife has been teaching in AZ for 5 years and was just offered to renew her contract for $32,000 (this is approx. 4000 more than teachers are paid in public schools) through a charter school and her benefits are substantially less than your friend's. Maybe our state is the exception to the rule but I doubt that. Her stated pension if nothing changes right now and when she retires is about a third of what you stated.

 

You are right, though, teachers teach because they love it not because the work is great and the money is better. I wouldn't do my wife's job for double the money.

[HKSblade1]

Guess what my wife does for a living? She has always made more money than. Even now she only works 1/2 time and makes only a little less than I do. Of course, there is a worldwide nursing shortage so she is a bit more in demand.

 

My wife is also an RN. Yeah and her benefits at work are horrendous. Still better than what my job offered me.

 

The shortage is not really a problem. Soon import employees will be filling most of those positions. My wife even oriented many of the new comers and by far even she said these import workers were more keen to the responsibilities and were the most willing of workers she had ever seen. They know their {censored} is how she put it. She said many other nurses they have to hire are lazy and not committed, and always bitch about work load, patients, and their pay. She said she is not surprised they are looking at other countries for nurses.

[eudaimonia02912]

 

There are RN's and other professions far more demanding that pay even less. Their health care is not paid for like teachers are, they do not have cushy retirement options either. They certainly are judged by performance. In some cases are even liable to their patients, treatment of family members etc. Avg RN salary is 42k for 5 years experience. Avg teacher salary is 40k with close to 15k/yr in benefits. Plus they only work partial year. RN is considered much more stressful and demanding by all accounts. Yet the pay difference is marginal. A teacher can earn nearly double their salary just in tenure alone. That will never happen for an RN. .

 

 

So, the average/mean teacher salary in the US is $40k. According to this website, average/mean starting salaries are about $34K. (http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary/by_Years_Experience)

 

Now take a look at this chart:

http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm

 

The median (not mean*!) yearly salary for someone with a master's degree in the US is about $65K, and the median yearly salary for someone with just a bachelor's degree is about $53K. Teachers are required to have bachelor's degrees, and in many states, must have master's degrees (or obtain them within a few years of starting work). The median salary for all workers is about $40k--right about what teachers make.

 

So, relative to their educational level, teachers are not paid much. I'm not saying that proves it's unfair or bad. Getting an advanced degree doesn't entitle you to a salary. But what I am saying is that given the cost of getting an education, you can expect to see many people drawn away from becoming teachers, as other professions provide a significantly better return on the investment of getting a degree.

 

*Note that mean teacher salary is going to be higher than median teacher salary, so these numbers will make things seem better for teachers than they are.

[HKSblade1]

 

My wife has been teaching in AZ for 5 years and was just offered to renew her contract for $32,000 (this is approx. 4000 more than teachers are paid in public schools) through a charter school and her benefits are substantially less than your friend's. Maybe our state is the exception to the rule but I doubt that. Her stated pension if nothing changes right now and when she retires is about a third of what you stated. You are right, though, teachers teach because they love it not because the work is great and the money is better. I wouldn't do my wife's job for double the money.

 

 

All she has to wait on is tenure, and possibly advancing her own education. Higher education level usually means higher pay, and far better pensions. One of my sisters friends is a kindergarten teacher. She has a masters and is paid nearly double what HS teachers are paid just starting. Her pension was in the ballpark of 65k/yr. Nobody I know at a regular job or even a similar profession level of education can get that. She bitches about her pay all the time though.

[Ovid9]

 

All she has to wait on is tenure, and possibly advancing her own education. Higher education level usually means higher pay, and far better pensions. One of my sisters friends is a kindergarten teacher. She has a masters and is paid nearly double what HS teachers are paid just starting. Her pension was in the ballpark of 65k/yr. Nobody I know at a regular job or even a similar profession level of education can get that. She bitches about her pay all the time though.

 

 

Is she getting any SS on top of that pension? My guess would be no. And that sort of thing is becoming far less common as far fewer teachers make it to any decent retirement age.

 

Also, I personally know lots of people, mostly engineers, mostly with masters, who get decently more than that in their pensions. I just happen to live in an area full of them because of the businesses located around here. I know it is not common, but its not as out of wack as you are insinuating.

 

Pensions are a dying thing in private industry mostly anyway. But in private industry, you can have things like stock options, stock buy-ins, bonuses, 401ks, profit-sharing along the way.

[Skunx]

When she finishes her masters degree she will make an additional $1000 a year, and there is no tenure system that she can gather. Which you would think she would have it after 5 years. Like I said when I looked at the figures she got from the state of AZ with her current working status, her retirement will be SIGNIFICANTLY less than 65k even if she works to 65. My retirement isn't going to be that high and I pay a lot of money into retirement every year.

[HKSblade1]

 

So, the average/mean teacher salary in the US is $40k. According to this website, average/mean starting salaries are about $34K. ( http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary/by_Years_Experience ) Now take a look at this chart: http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm The median (not mean*!) yearly salary for someone with a master's degree in the US is about $65K, and the median yearly salary for someone with just a bachelor's degree is about $53K. Teachers are required to have bachelor's degrees, and in many states, must have master's degrees (or obtain them within a few years of starting work). The median salary for all workers is about $40k--right about what teachers make. So, relative to their educational level, teachers are not paid much. I'm not saying that's proves it's unfair or bad. Getting an advanced degree doesn't entitle you to a salary. But what I am saying is that given the cost of getting an education, you can expect to see many people drawn away from becoming teachers, as other professions provide a significantly better return on the investment of getting a degree. *Note that mean teacher salary is going to be higher than median teacher salary, so these numbers will make things seem better for teachers than they are.

 

 

I see what you saying. Oh and BTW I do appreciate much of your input. Some things you challenge my opinions within our educational system. I have been very attentive in my local school districts for years now. I have been disgusted by the lack of account placed on our public system. Then when I see mine and others taxes being raised to supposedly pay for certain necessities only to find out those items were never purchased in the time of that operating levy income, it gets my blood boiling.

 

We have people that video taped school admins filling personal cars with fuel from the school bus depot over a period of 6 mos. We were even told by media outlets they need at least six months to make a case for a story.. WTF! We found out they have expensed many things including meetings (vacations) to Vegas, Lake Tahoe, Winnipeg, Bermuda, and Miami. We see they and many of their staff are given hefty salaries and bonuses even during school years where funds were so scarce. I am with a group of about 40 other parents who are making both the school admin's and the unions on edge.

 

Much of this we put on the admin's. Otoh we also have to address the same greed within the unions of our local teachers. Just as much bull{censored} has been sold to the public. Our incomes are all down, we make cuts in our personal lives. When the education of our students is failing amidst some very well compensated teachers and admin, questions have to answered.

 

They have gotten away with this {censored} in schools, governments because people don't say {censored}. They just let it happen. If a business {censored}s the people over you can just not support it. If the locals and your school system {censored}s your community over, there is nothing to hold them into account.. they just put another levy on the ballot and threaten to cut busing.

 

Us getting {censored}ed over now makes it worse for all our kids later. You bet I'm concerned.

[eudaimonia02912]

 

I see what you saying. Oh and BTW I do appreciate much of your input. Some things you challenge my opinions within our educational system. I have been very attentive in my local school districts for years now. I have been disgusted by the lack of account placed on our public system. Then when I see mine and others taxes being raised to supposedly pay for certain necessities only to find out those items were never purchased in the time of that operating levy income, it gets my blood boiling. We have people that video taped school admins filling personal cars with fuel from the school bus depot over a period of 6 mos. We were even told by media outlets they need at least six months to make a case for a story.. WTF! We found out they have expensed many things including meetings (vacations) to Vegas, Lake Tahoe, Winnipeg, Bermuda, and Miami. We see they and many of their staff are given hefty salaries and bonuses even during school years where funds were so scarce. I am with a group of about 40 other parents who are making both the school admin's and the unions on edge. Much of this we put on the admin's. Otoh we also have to address the same greed within the unions of our local teachers. Just as much bull{censored} has been sold to the public. Our incomes are all down, we make cuts in our personal lives. When the education of our students is failing amidst some very well compensated teachers and admin, questions have to answered. They have gotten away with this {censored} in schools, governments because people don't say {censored}. They just let it happen. If a business {censored}s the people over you can just not support it. If the locals and your school system {censored}s your community over, there is nothing to hold them into account.. they just put another levy on the ballot and threaten to cut busing. Us getting {censored}ed over now makes it worse for all our kids later. You bet I'm concerned.

 

 

I understand where you're coming from. For what it's worth, I have an overall unfavorable view of teachers' unions.

[Ovid9]

 

I understand where you're coming from. For what it's worth, I have an overall unfavorable view of teacher's unions .

 

 

Especially at the national level. They are very good at collecting fees and doing little of real importance to further education or even teachers rights. etc.

[HKSblade1]

One of my former guitar players wife is also a teacher. She is all up in arms over the collective bargaining thing too. Problem is something needs to be done. There needs to be accountability for the tax income received.

 

We even have local orgs here that are trying to make it illegal to collect real property tax revenue to pay for schools. Mainly I think its more people without kids or those whose kids are out of the system that either want an opt out voucher or something similar.

 

It's not that they don't understand that the income generated is required to maintain a good school system which in turn maintains property value, desirable community. The problem has been nearly zero accountability for billions of dollars collected. The media is just now starting to take a look at this. We have yet another levy on the ballot and this the biggest one ever. It hits in May. The threat of the school system is.... guess....

 

 

They will stop all busing. They love seeing 6000+ students being driven to school every day. Local business, road service vehicles, etc. It was the only that worked that last time a levy failed. That levy was right after the huge market crash, yet they wanted their millions. Most of these mother f'ers don't even live in the community so its not their taxes affected.. bastards!

[Captain Commie]

First off, good job HCAF, this has been one of the better, most civil and enlightened discussions I've on HC in a while.

Anyways, one interesting thing about the Wisconsin state workers problem is who it really hurts. I go to the UW and my proffesor walked in and told us strait up, any professor here who is pissing and moaning should shut up. They'll still be making a very healthy wage. If they leave, good riddance to you, sometimes there

[Yarbicus]

Well, let's be honest with ourselves here. What is happening in Wi is NOT about teachers. It is a politically motivated attempt to bust the unions. It is a transparent attempt to use the financial crisis to break up labor organization.

 

I also reject the "if you don't like it, quit" mentality. Why the dualism? Why the all or nothing? We are intelligent adults (for the most part). We can all agree that this will hurt. Why can't we agree to share the pain? Of course, I am on our college faculty's budget team and am finding that faculty are less "intelligent" and "adult" than I would like...

[Ovid9]

Well, let's be honest with ourselves here. What is happening in Wi is NOT about teaches. It is a politically motivated attempt to bust the unions. It is a transparent attempt to use the financial crisis to break up labor organization. I also reject the "if you don't like it, quit" mentality. Why the dualism? Why the all or nothing? We are intelligent adults (for the most part). We can all agree that this will hurt. Why can't we agree to share the pain? Of course, I am on our college faculty's budget team and am finding that faculty are less "intelligent" and "adult" than I would like...

Yup, that's 100% what it is Yarbicus.

Interestingly the bankers at AIG got their bonuses when the Feds bailed them out because the gov't honored the contracts. Completely opposite case going on here.

Its also interesting how the unions that tend to vote Republican (and can also rack up the most overtime pay oddly) aren't going to be effected by this. The police, firefighter and state trooper unions.

Funny how that works.

[draelyc]

Well, let's be honest with ourselves here. What is happening in Wi is NOT about teachers. It is a politically motivated attempt to bust the unions. It is a transparent attempt to use the financial crisis to break up labor organization. I also reject the "if you don't like it, quit" mentality. Why the dualism? Why the all or nothing? We are intelligent adults (for the most part). We can all agree that this will hurt. Why can't we agree to share the pain? Of course, I am on our college faculty's budget team and am finding that faculty are less "intelligent" and "adult" than I would like...

QFT

I don't think the WI situation would be generating such negative reaction but for the perception (which I tend to share, natch) that the planned actions do not seriously address the real, actual problems, but rather provide a good political "image" opportunity for the people proposing the actions.

[Ovid9]

QFT I don't think the WI situation would be generating such negative reaction but for the perception (which I tend to share, natch) that the planned actions do not seriously address the real, actual problems, but rather provide a good political "image" opportunity for the people proposing the actions.

Yup, my sentiments as well. Sadly this seems to be the case most of the time either way. There just aren't enough to go around for politics.

[Yarbicus]

Just saw this from the WI protests:

 

[***1776***]

Just saw this from the WI protests:

Dont forget these as well


http://olliandersblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/reload.jpg?w=600&h=421

http://assets.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/jeffreygoldberg/wi-hitler2.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IEBsUrr2aIg/TV3UP5YFR8I/AAAAAAAAj2U/NAjdcSNkwKk/s400/110217-wi-124.jpg

http://www.wpri.org//blog/wp-content/uploads/teamsters.pdf


BTW didnt Obama ask for 'civility' just a month ago ..

[Yarbicus]

The one I posted was at least funny. Comparing anyone but Hitler to Hitler is instant FAIL.

[paul88lx]

For the record, I feel like complete {censored} today. So I am utilizing a collectively bargained sick day:p:thu: