Any of you guys here teach?

[Gary Cohn]

It will attract better motivated and higher quality professionals to become teachers.

 

And that's where my distaste for the unions are. How do we get rid of the bad teachers? Can't just fire em, the unions would flip. We can't even get rid of bad teachers here in California due to the protection they have.

[draelyc]

And that's where my distaste for the unions are. How do we get rid of the bad teachers? Can't just fire em, the unions would flip. We can't even get rid of bad teachers here in California due to the protection they have.

 

It's tough, because the best way would be to make teaching as a career more competitive, so that the best would rise to the top and the worst would get edged out.

 

However, given that teachers ultimately have fairly little control over the learning their students choose to do (or not do) ~ especially in this broken system ~ how do we find a *fair* and *accurate* way of measuring teacher performance? Just looking at student test scores does not give an accurate indication...

[ComOp]

And that's where my distaste for the unions are. How do we get rid of the bad teachers? Can't just fire em, the unions would flip. We can't even get rid of bad teachers here in California due to the protection they have.

 

I've always wondered where this idea comes from... I've seen people fired by the state for being {censored} employees. Just like any other job I have had in fact.

 

The only thing I haven't seen since I have been a state employee is someone being fired for doing too good of a job like I did in the private sector.

[Rampage]

 

It will attract better motivated and higher quality professionals to become teachers.

 

 

Here's my question: Can school districts then immediately replace poor/under performing instructors with new ones, or will they continue to be a burden on the schools, taxpayers, and students? Throughout my educational voyage, I can count good instructors on one hand, far too many only taught to earn a paycheck. If they are not passionate, how can anyone expect their students to be?

[Gary Cohn]

And to the public service guy from California. No one is asking you guys to get {censored}, we're just saying that take a look around and adjust to the times. It isn't 2006 where there's a surplus of tax dollars. Everyone has to cut back, it isn't too much to ask to have unions and public service jobs to follow the rest of the state. Public service jobs cant be funded without tax dollars. No tax dollars here.

 

And I I were a public service employee, I'd be kicking and screaming to the California government to start dealing with the real problems like illegal immigration, insane lawsuits/tort reform, etc because those are the things no one wants to deal with/touch. And because of that, your pensions and salaries are being penalized.

[draelyc]

 

Here's my question: Can school districts then immediately replace poor/under performing instructors with new ones, or will they continue to be a burden on the schools, taxpayers, and students? Throughout my educational voyage, I can count good instructors on one hand, far too many only taught to earn a paycheck. If they are not passionate, how can anyone expect their students to be?

 

 

And against that, if we thoroughly overburden yet disgracefully underpay them, how can we expect them to be passionate about anything?

[Gary Cohn]

It's tough, because the best way would be to make teaching as a career more competitive, so that the best would rise to the top and the worst would get edged out. However, given that teachers ultimately have fairly little control over the learning their students choose to do (or not do) ~ especially in this broken system ~ how do we find a *fair* and *accurate* way of measuring teacher performance? Just looking at student test scores does not give an accurate indication...

 

I'd start by going back to hard science, math and history based curriculums. When I was a kid, we spent more time on things like Shakespeare, recycling and other frivolous learnings than we did on units that inspire innovation, problem solving and the avoidance of committing problems that we could have avoided by knowing simple history.

 

 

Also, stopping the funding of on campus clubs like mecha, etc.

[Gary Cohn]

Apologies for grammar and spelling, autocorrect on my iPhone is brutal.

[ComOp]

 

And to the public service guy from California. No one is asking you guys to get {censored}, we're just saying that take a look around and adjust to the times. It isn't 2006 where there's a surplus of tax dollars. Everyone has to cut back, it isn't too much to ask to have unions and public service jobs to follow the rest of the state. Public service jobs cant be funded without tax dollars. No tax dollars here.

 

 

Every single employee in my unit commutes 40 miles or more to work due to the cost of living here. Seriously, even the people at the top.

 

The highest paid employee in our unit makes $150k a year. None of us is breaking the bank on the tax payers dime. Across the board we make 10-20% less than local government equiv positions. Most of us stay in our jobs not for the pay but because of the job itself. During the last two years we have seen a flood of retirements by people who never would have retired if not for the attack on civil servants.

 

It truly sucks.

 

As for your second thought... Completely agree. Unfortunately for a lot of us, we literally have little to no say in how our union dues are spent politically.

[la0tsu]

 

And to the public service guy from California. No one is asking you guys to get {censored}, we're just saying that take a look around and adjust to the times. It isn't 2006 where there's a surplus of tax dollars. Everyone has to cut back, it isn't too much to ask to have unions and public service jobs to follow the rest of the state. Public service jobs cant be funded without tax dollars. No tax dollars here.

 

 

But there are dollars that can be taxed - taxes are at the lowest level in the US than at any time since before World War 2. Add to that the fact that those of us who still have jobs are actually making more money (I personally haven't missed a raise in 6 years with my current, private sector employer, while my wife hasn't gotten a raise in 3 years in her so-called cushy government job), and it becomes clear that taxpayers want services, but they don't want to pay for them.

[Gary Cohn]

Taxes arent the answer brah. All you do there is give more money to politicians to mis manage and blow. It doesn't matter if taxes were 90% for everyone, it still wouldn't fix the problems. They need to MEET a budget. You get X amount of dollars, spend it wisely.

 

When I was a kid, and got an allowance, that's all I got. If I spent it, I had to wait until the next Saturday when I mowed the lawn.

 

Our polticians over spend the. Instead of waiting for Saturday, they just sneak into dads wallet and take what's in there.

[ComOp]

 

Taxes arent the answer brah. All you do there is give more money to politicians to mis manage and blow. It doesn't matter if taxes were 90% for everyone, it still wouldn't fix the problems. They need to MEET a budget. You get X amount of dollars, spend it wisely.

 

 

Honestly, as a state employee I can say with all honesty that it isn't the politicians or the state employees that make the worst spending mistakes... It's the voters. We keep having to spend money on ridiculous projects and voter approved mandates that are killing the general fund. Every time something like stem cell research, bullet trains, school support or other feel good votes come up people happily approve them.

[SteveiJobzz]

Unfortunately though, when you have to pay off your credit card bill, you can't do it with just minimum payments. Eventually taxes are going to go up, it's just a matter of when and how steep.

 

I think in America, we have to stop being so afraid of taxes. Either way, the government is going to blow money, democrat or republican, but the bill is going to come sometime, and it's only fair that we all pay for it.

[Rampage]

 

And against that, if we thoroughly overburden yet disgracefully underpay them, how can we expect them to be passionate about anything?

 

 

I can understand a lack of motivation if you are not being properly reimbursed; however, let's operate in the world of theory where all teachers are offered a base level of pay that is perceived to be fair.

 

We have teacher A who is truly a subject matter expert, invests the time to create outstanding lesson plans, provides meaningful lectures, and attempts to get students involved.

 

We also have teacher B who just goes through the book assigning chapter questions and using lecture notes from the PowerPoints on the publisher's website.

 

Can we remove teacher B, or do we have to continue wasting money on their pay, and continue exposing students to them?

[***1776***]

Its not just about taxes, we CANNOT TAX our way out of the current problems

 

 

Jesus christ the states, counties and municipalities with some of the highest tax rates are also in the biggest trouble, again my counties (where i work and reside) are very wealthy but the ONSLAUGHT of upcoming costs are going to kill us and are unsustainable!

 

 

Sure u can REALLY tax people for a year or 2, but loooong term its not the solution, its truly not

 

 

 

[SteveiJobzz]

 

I can understand a lack of motivation if you are not being properly reimbursed; however, let's operate in the world of theory where all teachers are offered a base level of pay that is perceived to be fair. We have teacher A who is truly a subject matter expert, invests the time to create outstanding lesson plans, provides meaningful lectures, and attempts to get students involved. We also have teacher B who just goes through the book assigning chapter questions and using lecture notes from the PowerPoints on the publisher's website. Can we remove teacher B, or do we have to continue wasting money on their pay, and continue exposing students to them?

 

 

We may not be able to punish teacher B, but we could reward teacher A.

 

Just like any commission based job.

[Rampage]

 

We may not be able to punish teacher B, but we could reward teacher A. Just like any commission based job.

 

 

Can we institute an objective and quantifiable job performance scale with teachers in relation to how well they educate their students?

[SteveiJobzz]

It would have to be separate from the students' grades. I know at my high school, teachers who taught AP classes got incentives if a certain amount of students passed the AP tests.

[Rampage]

 

It would have to be separate from the students' grades. I know at my high school, teachers who taught AP classes got incentives if a certain amount of students passed the AP tests.

 

 

That's the problem that I see with it from the limited reading and discussion I've had in the past. How can we accurately grade instructors? Now, incentives for advanced placement or gifted and talented education make sense, but how can we also apply incentives to education holistically? We cannot base it on grades because that's not perfect; some parents send their children to school like it is government subsidized daycare and some teachers would potentially tilt grades to favor themselves. It would be quite the conundrum.

 

Let me say this: I am all for teachers being paid more IF this translates to a better quality education and a more talented workforce that can be more effective in the global marketplace. If this pay will simply perpetuate the current system, I must say that I wholeheartedly oppose.

[paul88lx]

 

That's the problem that I see with it from the limited reading and discussion I've had in the past. How can we accurately grade instructors? Now, incentives for advanced placement or gifted and talented education make sense, but how can we also apply incentives to education holistically? We cannot base it on grades because that's not perfect; some parents send their children to school like it is government subsidized daycare and some teachers would potentially tilt grades to favor themselves. It would be quite the conundrum. Let me say this: I am all for teachers being paid more IF this translates to a better quality education and a more talented workforce that can be more effective in the global marketplace. If this pay will simply perpetuate the current system, I must say that I wholeheartedly oppose.

 

 

I think the main problem here is teachers have no control over the kids once they leave school for the day. The best teachers in the world can't make deadbeat parents lean on their kids about homework and school related things. So all the effort a great teacher puts out over the course of the day can be washed away by dinnertime. Provided said parents actually cook for their kids and interact with them.

 

Basically, you are punishing teachers for things that are way out of their control.

[Ovid9]

 

Can we institute an objective and quantifiable job performance scale with teachers in relation to how well they educate their students?

 

 

Not easily.

 

And the current initiatives (the ever growing amount of testing that is required to "prove" things) only hinder actual education.

[Rampage]

 

I think the main problem here is teachers have no control over the kids once they leave school for the day. The best teachers in the world can't make deadbeat parents lean on their kids about homework and school related things. So all the effort a great teacher puts out over the course of the day can be washed away by dinnertime. Provided said parents actually cook for their kids and interact with them. Basically, you are punishing teachers for things that are way out of their control.

 

 

That's the point of developing a way to gauge the quality of teachers. A world renowned neurologist may perform brain surgery on a patient who does not respond well and passes away, but we typically do not hold that against the doctor; its out of the doctor's control at that point. The thing is, we do have something to grade the doctor on, and that is successful surgeries in the past in addition to the skills learned by said doctor as time goes on. Can we develop something similar for teacher in order to determine which go above and beyond and which do not, rather than relying on grades or tenure?

[paul88lx]

I personally think it's a bit more abstract than that. Around here they are currently trying to institute a whole bunch of new standardized testing for use in grading teachers and students. That's a farce as far as I am concerned. What they should do is go back to tracking kids. The ones that may suck at math but are great with their hands should be in the shop learning trades. The kids that are great at the humanities, but may have little or no coordination, should be tracked accordingly. We have a dire shortage of skilled workers in this country right now. And contrary to todays PC perspective, not everyone is created equally. Some people are smarter than others. Some people are more coordinated than others. They should be allowed to show their talents and be trained accordingly. Why would a teenager with amazing carpentry skills need a chemistry class? Personally, I don't know. Not to mention, that same kid coming out of high school and going right to work is going to earn a good living and avoid a {censored} ton of debt. Then, most likely, he will own his own business by the time he is 25. Isn't that the american dream?

 

I can't even count how many college educated carpenters I know. There is just too many around here. And most are carrying debt that is eating huge holes in their life.

 

End rant/

 

I jumped into this late and now I have to go to work. Damn.

[draelyc]

Can we institute an objective and quantifiable job performance scale with teachers in relation to how well they educate their students?

 

That's just it, because ultimate, learning isn't up to the teacher ~ it's up to the students.

 

It's like Yogi Berra said: "If folks don't want to come out to the ball park, there's nothing you can do to stop 'em."

 

 

If students do not want to learn, it really doesn't matter how good the teacher is.

[Ovid9]

 

That's the point of developing a way to gauge the quality of teachers. A world renowned neurologist may perform brain surgery on a patient who does not respond well and passes away, but we typically do not hold that against the doctor; its out of the doctor's control at that point. The thing is, we do have something to grade the doctor on, and that is successful surgeries in the past in addition to the skills learned by said doctor as time goes on. Can we develop something similar for teacher in order to determine which go above and beyond and which do not, rather than relying on grades or tenure?

 

 

The problem isn't that cut and dried though.

 

Teachers:

 

1) Have 0 control over the quality of student

2) Have "control" over a kid maybe 7 hours a day in grade school, less in upper grades. They can't help bad parenting, bad nutrition, etc.

3) Has 0 control over how many kids they deal with at once

4) Has every shrinking control over curriculum as more and more mandates are passed that usually ignore educational research.

5) They have 0 control over a student that simply doesn't care. You can do everything you want, but if the kid simply refuses to do the work, what is the kid to do?

 

I'm not saying that more can't be done to attempt to weed out bad teachers, but making teaching a more attractive profession to go into would invariably bring in more good candidates. And its not simply more money. It means not getting dumped on and treated like {censored} because parents are refusing to raise their children who then fail at school and it all gets dumped back on the teachers. It means not having to deal with overpacked classrooms of kids.

 

There are plenty of bad teachers unfortunately, just like there are bad cops, bad trashmen, bad bankers and bad construction workers. We can work to minimize them, but they will exist. Realisticly the problem is often with bad administration as it is with bad teachers. Administrators who far too often have little teaching experience themselves making decisions that are not best for the staff or the students.

 

It isn't just a problem of throwing more money at it. Its how that money is used. And sadly, far too much money never makes it directly to the classroom.