Western Red Cedar Tops......?

[mayan]

Could somebody please explain to me how this guitar-top wood sounds different to the traditional stika spruce top wood?

Lets say that the rest of the guitar body is Rosewood,just for a mutual comparison sake.

And also,please,what is the difference,in sound, between Stika Spruce,and Enghlmann Spruce?

 

 

Thanks !

Bob

[guitarist21]

Warning: this is all really subjective.

I personally think the difference b/w Englemann and Sitka is negligible, but some people are more picky.

Cedar is generally considered a warmer-sounding wood than spruce. Spruce is noted for its clear highs and cedar more for its warm midrange.

Ellen

[bigmo66]

Western Red Cedar - YUM! It's often said that Cedar does not require the long wait for the wood to "open up" and I agree after owning 3. It's more mellow to me than Sitka spruce, but not whimpy like sometimes described. It can be overdriven with heavy strumming, but that has more to do with construction than wood type. Great fingerpicking response for sure. I really, really like cedar tops.

[denvertrakker]

That's a really pretty hunk a' wood. The more I look at cedar, I'm thinkin' whatever I get next might have to be cedar...especially since I like smaller body guitars, and the cedar should mellow out a bass-shy git. Seagull, anyone?

[MattSkibaIsGOD]

to me, spruce is like milk, and cedar is like dark chocolate. I love milk, but chocolate is much darker, more rich, and warms the soul.

[AK47]

Just another opinion here.

I'd like to add that I think Cedar also has a warmer and a richer low end. I think the highs are less pronouced but have excellent tone. Cedar responds well to a delicate touch like engelmann but can't hold up to a strong attack like sitka. The cedar tops have a rep for not being as durable but it is a guitar not a hammer treat it with respect. I think everyone should own at least one cedar top guitar. They bring something nice to the table. I still prefer spruce but have much respect for cedar.

[Cripes]

Cymbals and cowbells, spruce to cedar, respectively.

I break it down as spruce being the brighter of the two. Other than that, the richness of both over R/W is really dependent on the build. I have both over R/W and I switch off in a sort of *let's see, what do I feel like having today?* kind of scenario. I do completely agree with bigmo66s' statement about overdriving cedar. It does not like hard strumming where spruce gives what it gets. But, cedar's sweetness to me is something spruce cannot give. Light to medium fingerpicking is where cedar and spruce have their most notable and finest distinctions. Spruce will take a more aggressive style but that's just something one doesn't do with cedar. Call it etiquette, call it what you will but cedar is for a more refined style/technique. That's me, though. When I first bought this cedar guitar and tried pulling out the stops it threw out the anchor on me. I had to learn what it could do and appreciate it for that. So, I bought a spruce guitar for heavier playing.

[EvilTwin]

Trying to explain the differences in tone would be like trying to explain the differences between two colors.

To my ears spruce has higher highs and lower lows. The treble sings and the bass is tighter; the higher ringing treble makes the contrast with the lows more recognizable (which may have more to do with the "lower lows" than anything in a spruce/rosewood b/s guitars; the bass may not really be that much more prevalent in spruce, but it sounds like it is, especially when paired with rosewood).

Cedar is warmer overall. It doesn't have the treble ringing quality of spruce, but it makes up for it with a quicker response and a midrange character that spruce just doesn't have. I've grown to actually prefer it (mahogany, too, as a top wood).

As for englemann vs. sitka, some say englemann responds better to a lighter touch (while you can be a bit more forceful with sitka).

But your ears may hear something else entirely.

[Freeman Keller]

You can listen to some differences here

http://www.kentotushek.com/

http://www.thepodium.com/t-soundsamples.aspx

and read opinions here

http://www.cbguitars.com/woods.htm

http://www.pantheonguitars.com/tonewoods.htm

[bsman]

It can be overdriven with heavy strumming, but that has more to do with construction than wood type.

What does that mean, exactly? I keep running into this reference, and I don't know what precisely it is. I know that if a speaker is overdriven, it "farts" out - but I have never in my life heard an acoustic guitar, no matter how enthusiastically strummed sound anything like that. Is it something really subtle, or do I not have a guitar capable of being "overdriven, or do I simply not play "hard" enough?

[Cripes]

What does that mean, exactly? I keep running into this reference, and I don't know what precisely it is. I know that if a speaker is overdriven, it "farts" out - but I have never in my life heard an acoustic guitar, no matter how enthusiastically strummed sound anything like that. Is it something really subtle, or do I not have a guitar capable of being "overdriven, or do I simply not play "hard" enough?

Top bracing - the braces glues to it on the inside - differ in design of each brace and layout between guitars of different makes. One make may be lightly braced while another is more stout. The less bracing, the more the top can vibrate. But, there must be some form of bracing to counter-act the compression loads on the top imparted by string tension. So, there will always be some sacrifice in sound to structural strength requirements. Cedar is not a strong wood. Pound-for-pound of compression loads between it and spruce, cedar requires heavier bracing so it will have less area available to create sound by contrast to spruce. All that said cedar itself does not have the sonic capacity as spruce. Where cedar can yield wonderful tone, it does not have the vibratory range that spruce does. It tops out and when driven hard it will not vibrate like spruce and ends up sounding like mud. It loses clarity and the lows, mids and highs just pan together without any definition - a muddy, unpleasant sound. This can occur even with hard fingerpicking single notes. They lack clarity when driven hard. Some construction techniques/methods and quality of the cedar itself - sonic crapshoot, IMO - may allow better yields from it but it generally gives its best with a light touch. Loudness is probably the one area that construction can modulate but the wood itself has limitations over spruce. So, if you are heavy handed, do not expect to satisfy your needs with cedar.

[EvilTwin]

http://www.pantheonguitars.com/tonewoods.htm

 

 

I always find this interesting when I read through that link (which I've done quite a few times):

 

If players and builders were able to overcome phobias about unevenness of color, grain irregularity, minor knots, and four-piece tops, many more great-sounding guitars could be produced while the supply of potentially usable red spruce is still available.

 

I've never played a four-piece top, but I'd like to. It sounds like that method of top-making will still yield great-sounding instruments (according to Dana Bourgeois, at least, and who am I to say he's wrong). Plus, more instruments could be made using less wood. Sounds like a win/win proposition to me.

[Freeman Keller]

Here is one more link, by one of the people often considered to be a true Master Luthier. Read it slowly and carefully. He has some other great articles linked at the top

http://www.esomogyi.com/tonewoods.html