Fret Buzz on my new Seagull S12

[Glenn F]

Hi there, everyone,

 

Welp, a bit of a sad tale regarding my new Seagull S12. When I bought her, I had realized that there was some fret buzz, but I attributed that to the action being very low, and, given my less than expert knowledge, that a truss rod adjustment would fix the problem. Alas, I was wrong. I brought the S12 back to the shop last week, explained the problem to the tech, who measured the string heights, told me that the strings were too low, and that I should leave the guitar with him overnight. I went to get it the next day, and while the buzzing below the 5th fret had been fixed, there was still buzz on the 11/12th strings from the 5th fret upwards. When I pointed this out to the tech (I have to say that he IS competent) he measured the heights again, told me the guitar was within spec, that the neck and the frets were fine, and that the buzzing was a function of 'the price of the guitar.' He further told me to 'take your new 12 string home and enjoy it, I can't send it back to the distributor as is, because there's nothing wrong with it.'

 

Except it buzzes, as described above, when strummed with a flatpick (and you don't have to strum VERY HARD to get the buzz, either).

 

I found this result unsatisfactory, and so contacted Godin. Someone there gave me the specs, and told me how to measure the string height at the 12th fret, which I did, and found the 11/12strings to be within the parameters he outlined, and that, further, if the buzzing occurred at these specs then 'there is a problem.'

 

So, on one hand, I have the tech at the shop telling me that whatever buzzing I am experiencing is within normal parameters, given the cost of the guitar, and someone at Godin telling me there is a problem. I don't know how this is going to unfold at this point. Godin delegates responsibility to a 3rd party distributor here in Germany, and, though the person at Godin forwarded my emails to them, I haven't heard anything from the local distributor.

 

I'd certainly appreciate some informed opinions and possible courses of action. I am willing to take the guitar to an independent luthier for fixing (and, the shop I bought it from will not earn another Pfennig from me, and I bought 3 guitars from them this year).

 

Cheers, and, thanks,

 

Glenn

[TeleFromHelly]

Put it in your fireplace:idea:

[Freeman Keller]

Hi Glenn - sorry to hear about your new 'gull. My limited experience with the S12+ is that it is a quality instrument and should be possible to set it up to play comfortably without buzzing. Normally when a guitar buzzes from the middle of the fretboard on up it means it has too much relief combined with a fairly low action, assuming that you don't have a high fret or something else funky with the board.

 

You don't say what your guitar is set at, but both of my 12's are right at 0.010" relief at 7 and about 3/32" above the 12th fret. I string with lights and tune down so the tension is a bit slack, and I have no buzzing at all. Most people like a little more height on the low E side, but 3/32 is pretty common, maybe a 64th less on the high E. What did Godin tell you the specs were and what do you actually measure? What strings and tuning are you using? And is it actually fret buzz (ie is it the next note sounding dully as you move up the fretboard)? Have you or your tech tried rocking a short piece of straightedge on each three frets? Did he actually try raising the action (you can shim the saddle with something like a thin piece of plastic to try)?

 

A good friend has a S12+, tunes it down and wails away pretty hard and I've never heard it buzz.

[Glenn F]

 

Hi Glenn - sorry to hear about your new 'gull. My limited experience with the S12+ is that it is a quality instrument and should be possible to set it up to play comfortably without buzzing. Normally when a guitar buzzes from the middle of the fretboard on up it means it has too much relief combined with a fairly low action, assuming that you don't have a high fret or something else funky with the board. You don't say what your guitar is set at, but both of my 12's are right at 0.010" relief at 7 and about 3/32" above the 12th fret. I string with lights and tune down so the tension is a bit slack, and I have no buzzing at all. Most people like a little more height on the low E side, but 3/32 is pretty common, maybe a 64th less on the high E. What did Godin tell you the specs were and what do you actually measure? What strings and tuning are you using? And is it actually fret buzz (ie is it the next note sounding dully as you move up the fretboard)? Have you or your tech tried rocking a short piece of straightedge on each three frets? Did he actually try raising the action (you can shim the saddle with something like a thin piece of plastic to try)? A good friend has a S12+, tunes it down and wails away pretty hard and I've never heard it buzz.

 

 

Hi, Freeman,

 

The specs given to me by the person at Godin were:

 

" 5/64" @ 12th fret (high E strings);

between 6 and 7/64" @ 12th fret (low E string)."

 

My measurements give me these numbers;

 

The strings are Godin strings that came with the guitar (.010s-.047s);

 

Concert tuning;

 

I don't know how to answer the next question about the next note sounding dully. When I strike the strings with a pick, there's buzz that cannot be accounted for by soft fingers or too strong attack. It sounds quite horrible.

 

I haven't tried rocking anything on the frets yet, I will, but the tech told me that the frets and the neck were perfect. I'll check... no, not that I could discern...

 

I left the guitar with the tech overnight. He raised the bridge by doing what you suggested, as well as filing down the nut courses. When I asked him about that, he told me that it was an adjustment for the intonation, given his bridge height adjustment. This improved the buzzing below the 5th fret.

 

Thanks,

 

Glenn

[Freeman Keller]

OK, a couple more quickies before I leave for the day. Can you try to pick each string of the bottom course by itself (pretty hard to do with a flat pick, I know) - does the octave buzz or only the primar? And try fretting the bottom course at 5, 6, 7, etc and tapping the next fret - you should feel it go down and hit the fret with each one.

 

Lastly, measure the relief - capo at one and hold the strings down at 12. Ideally one business card will just fit at 7, more than that might be too much relief. If you have two cards try tightening the truss rod an 1/8 of a turn or so - go slowly. (fwiw a business card is about 0,010 inch) It sounds like your action is about right and if he had done any damage lowering the nut you'd hear some buzzing on the low frets.

 

I'll check back tomorrow. Don't give up.

[Glenn F]

Thanks, Freeman!

 

I'll also have to take this up tomorrow, as it is 1:30 AM here, and my wife is in bed. I'll hopefully have some answers for you your AM tomorrow.

 

Cheers!

 

Glenn

[conway]

Freeman the free guitarman Keller is a wealth of knowlage to this forum. What would you all do without him. Thanks Freeman.................. next time I speak with a luthier about my action I will be better educated now. Therefore I will be able to discribe whats on my mind so he gets it the first time. Playing is one subject far from the physics relating to set up. Thanks again.

[phil_harmonic]

 

(I have to say that he IS competent) he measured the heights again, told me the guitar was within spec, that the neck and the frets were fine, and that the buzzing was a function of 'the price of the guitar.' Glenn

 

 

 

BS. I don't think he's competent and I don't agree with his verdict. Get your money back. Either he didn't get it setup right or the neck is warped. It shouldn't buzz unless your beating the heck out of it IMO. Sounds like the setup is still off or there's something wrong with the neck?

[Glenn F]

 

OK, a couple more quickies before I leave for the day. Can you try to pick each string of the bottom course by itself (pretty hard to do with a flat pick, I know) - does the octave buzz or only the primar? And try fretting the bottom course at 5, 6, 7, etc and tapping the next fret - you should feel it go down and hit the fret with each one. Lastly, measure the relief - capo at one and hold the strings down at 12. Ideally one business card will just fit at 7, more than that might be too much relief. If you have two cards try tightening the truss rod an 1/8 of a turn or so - go slowly. (fwiw a business card is about 0,010 inch) It sounds like your action is about right and if he had done any damage lowering the nut you'd hear some buzzing on the low frets. I'll check back tomorrow. Don't give up.

 

 

Hi Freeman,

 

I don't quite understand what you are asking me to do in the first paragraph, but the primary buzzes worse than the octave. As for the relief, I can barely fit a business card under at the 7th fret, no room to spare, have to nudge it in there. There is no room for 2 cards.

 

Sorry for getting back to this so late. I spent the afternoon down at the shop, searching for a replacement.

 

I tried:

 

A Lakewood D-14. I don't know if many North Americans have heard of Lakewood guitars. They are German made, and can get quite pricey. The D-14 I tried today had very low action, but it also buzzed on the 11/12th strings on the first 4 frets. This guitar is about

[Freeman Keller]

OK, the first paragraph was an attempt to find out if both the 11th and 12th were buzzing or just the 11th (which is what I would expect). Checking at each fret tells you whether it is one high fret or simply not enough clearance for the strings - a high fret will only sound dull at one spot (and often it will sound one semitone sharp), a combination of low action plus deep relief usually buzzes from about 5 or 6 all the way up to 12 (and usually will buzz on more than one course).

 

Anyway, your relief sounds about right too so I am at a loss of what to tell you. There are other causes of buzzing - most of the time it is simply that when it was strung the ball end of one string wasn't pulled tight - but the sound will come directly from the bridge area. I had a loose pickguard once, but wouldn't expect that on a new git, and various bits of hardware (tuners, truss rods, wires and electronics) can also buzz.

 

Certainly a second opinion would be a good idea. I do reject the techs comments about the "price of the guitar", but many gits are very close to the buzzing when set up low and fast. However both the action and relief on yours are within my specs so....

 

That guitar has a lot of love, particularly in its price range, and you may be hard pressed to find something you like without going up to Guild or Taylor (a used 355 would be a great git if you can find one). There are frequently discussion on moderate priced 12's over here at the Cafe' - come on in and join us

 

UMGF 12 String Cafe'

[Glenn F]

Thanks for your time and the invite, Freeman!

 

Glenn

 

PS, I agree with you about the Taylor. I was going to buy one of those around 5 years ago, but.......