12 String advice, answers, rules of thumb, etc.

[jerime]

Got a new 12 sting today, my first 12 string might I add. It's a Walden D552. First off, I popped a few strings tunning it, which wasn't a big surprise. Second the action it a bit high. Looks like there is way too much relief in the neck for one. Fortunately there seems to be plenty of room to work with the truss rod so I am slowly straiting it out. Which brings me to my first question. Since there is more tension on the neck with a 12 compared to a 6 should I detune before I start to tighten the truss rod? Second question is what kind of strings do you suggest? I prefer something pretty light. I didn't know if 9s would be too light.

 

Over all the guitar seems pretty nice even though I haven't spent much time playing it yet. This is my second Walden in 2 weeks (the other is a G570TB) and I've got to say I'm fairly impressed. My only grip really so far is the nut for the truss rod adjustment is set back fairly deep in the sound hole so you really have to reach for it or detune a couple of strings to get to it. It's like that on both of them, with the 12 string being a little bit further back than the 6.

 

Anyway any other advice, answers or rules of thumb you can give me about my exciting new world of 12 strings would be greatly appreciated.

[MattSkibaIsGOD]

Congrats on another fine axe. I love Waldens. As far as detuning, Freeman Keller is our resident 12 string expert and I expect he will check in here soon, but until then if you're using lights, concert pitch should be fine; if not, I'd say down at least a half step if nothing more than for ease of playability.

[Terry Allan Hall]

Got a new 12 sting today, my first 12 string might I add. It's a Walden D552. Good choice! First off, I popped a few strings tunning it, which wasn't a big surprise. Second the action it a bit high. Looks like there is way too much relief in the neck for one. Fortunately there seems to be plenty of room to work with the truss rod so I am slowly straiting it out. Which brings me to my first question. Since there is more tension on the neck with a 12 compared to a 6 should I detune before I start to tighten the truss rod? It wouldn't hurt, particularily if there's a lot of bow. Second question is what kind of strings do you suggest? I prefer something pretty light. I didn't know if 9s would be too light. I like a set with a high "E" at .010 and the lowest "E" about .047-.049... .009 seems a bit too light, but try it and see...might sound fine on your guitar Over all the guitar seems pretty nice even though I haven't spent much time playing it yet. This is my second Walden in 2 weeks (the other is a G570TB) and I've got to say I'm fairly impressed. My only grip really so far is the nut for the truss rod adjustment is set back fairly deep in the sound hole so you really have to reach for it or detune a couple of strings to get to it. It's like that on both of them, with the 12 string being a little bit further back than the 6. Anyway any other advice, answers or rules of thumb you can give me about my exciting new world of 12 strings would be greatly appreciated.

 

Just love it for what it is...

[Samilyn]

WhooHoo!! Congrats!!

 

Now go get that sweet git set up.

 

It is money well spent, especially with a 12-er. Besides fine-tuning the neck relief, you need to have the saddle looked at and perhaps adjusted a wee bit for best playability. 12-ers can be a bit persnickety, but they're not rocket science. Always a good idea to work closely with a tech until you get to know where the best setup is and learn the git's quirks.

 

If you cannot or don't want to visit a tech, read everything on the "Tech" pages at the Annex and make sure you have the proper measuring tools. Take it step by step, follow directions carefully, and you can do a setup yourself.

 

If you're going to tune to concert, best to stick with lights. D'Addario makes a nice set of phos bronze 10-47. I currently use the D'Addario set labeled EJ38 and they sound great on my Martin.

 

Martin labels theirs as "ultra-light, but the gauges are the same. Read the actual gauges listed on the pack, not the manufacturer's description.

 

I don't like the sound of 80/20 bronze on a 12-er. Too bright for my taste. Silk & Steel is always an option for a little less tension, but the sound is not for everyone. Beautifully airy and harp-like, but on the quiet side.

 

Wait until you're more familiar with the quirks of a 12-er before you start swapping strings around. I recommend you start with light phos bronze.

 

9s are a bit too light for my taste and with my oh-so-low setup, they buzz like crazy.

 

Detuning to access the truss rod is quite common. I detune the middle strings to get my hand inside the sound hole. It's also not unusual, either, to have a "deep reach" inside the git to the truss rod. Newer Martins require a long-handled allen key to get in there, so it would not surprise me that other makes of git do too.

 

Welcome to the wonderful world of 12-string. Enjoy!

[ESL94]

 

WhooHoo!! Congrats!! Now go get that sweet git set up. It is money well spent, especially with a 12-er. Besides fine-tuning the neck relief, you need to have the saddle looked at and perhaps adjusted a wee bit for best playability. 12-ers can be a bit persnickety, but they're not rocket science. Always a good idea to work closely with a tech until you get to know where the best setup is and learn the git's quirks. If you cannot or don't want to visit a tech, read everything on the "Tech" pages at the Annex and make sure you have the proper measuring tools. Take it step by step, follow directions carefully, and you can do a setup yourself. If you're going to tune to concert, best to stick with lights. D'Addario makes a nice set of phos bronze 10-47. I currently use the D'Addario set labeled EJ38 and they sound great on my Martin. Martin labels theirs as "ultra-light, but the gauges are the same. Read the actual gauges listed on the pack, not the manufacturer's description. I don't like the sound of 80/20 bronze on a 12-er. Too bright for my taste. Silk & Steel is always an option for a little less tension, but the sound is not for everyone. Beautifully airy and harp-like, but on the quiet side. Wait until you're more familiar with the quirks of a 12-er before you start swapping strings around. I recommend you start with light phos bronze. 9s are a bit too light for my taste and with my oh-so-low setup, they buzz like crazy. Detuning to access the truss rod is quite common. I detune the middle strings to get my hand inside the sound hole. It's also not unusual, either, to have a "deep reach" inside the git to the truss rod. Newer Martins require a long-handled allen key to get in there, so it would not surprise me that other makes of git do too. Welcome to the wonderful world of 12-string. Enjoy!

 

 

+1

 

I would advise the same about "Now go get that sweet git set up" & "It is money well spent, especially with a 12-er."

 

Samilyn gives you some good ideas about string selection, once you have become familiar w/your strings, just try several different one's

to hear what type of tone you want.

 

Welcome to the 12 string family!

[Freeman Keller]

Plus one on everything above - and while I am not "the resident expert" I'll be happy to tell you what I do with mine.

 

First - both my 12's are set up very much like my sixes. My old Martin does not have an adjustable t/r and is right at 0.010, my new one is about 0.008. Action at 12 is almost indentical to a fingerstyle six - 3/32 low E and 5/64 high. Nuts are a little trickier because of the different diameter strings side by side, but the same trick of having just a hair of clearance on the first fret if you capo at 2 is a good rule of thumb. I always try to do truss rod adjustment with neck at least partially tensioned - if your adjuster is at the headstock that should be easy, if it is in the sound hole slacken the middle courses. I use a long allen wrench in a screwdriver type handle - you should be able to reach the rod pretty easily.

 

For strings, first be aware that different brands use the terms "light", "extra lights" etc differently - so shop with a little care. For the sake of discussion lets call "lights" 0.010-0.047 with a 0.009 octave G (that fits the Elixer set). Most modern 12's are designed for the tension of those lights tuned to concert pitch and that would be my recommendation. That will have about 50 percent more tension than a 6 string with lights (12-54) so you will definitely feel the difference, but it should be reasonably playable.

 

I happen to use Elixers on my 12 strings - unfortunately all they offer is 80/20 in either Poly or Nanoweb - so that is what I use. I like the long life of Elixers - with two 12's I simply don't want to be restringing every month.

 

Many 12 string players choose to tune down - one or two semitones is common (ie D# or D). This is easy to do with a chromatic tuner or you can just capo at one or two, tune to E and take the capo off (more about capos in a minute). There are two reasons to tune down - it lowers the tension on the neck meaning it will be a little easier to fret and it changes some of the jangly sound to more of a growl. I can tune my 12s down to D with lights altho if I go any lower I like to use mediums (0.012-0.054 with a 0.010 G).

 

Players that regularly tune down include Leo Kottke (C#) and Heddy Leadbetter (C or even lower) - in fact Kottkes signature roar is due to his low tunings and fat strings. One big disadvantage of downtuning is that it is hard to sing or play with other people without transposing or capoing.

 

I don't use a capo on my 12's but if you do be aware that it will probably pull it out of tune, particularly the octave strings.

 

As far as tuning, try to tune the strings open as much as you can. A chromatic tuner makes it easy, you can also just tune the primaries as normal (match fifth frets), then tune the octave to that same note by ear. You should be able to hear the octave sound on both strings open. Don't try to fret the primary at 12 and match the octave - you will be pulling the primary sharp. A good chromatic tuner makes it easy.

 

I happened to be watching a couple of Kottke vids last night and it got me inspired to play the old Martin 12. My gosh, what a big wonderful sound - you can just hammer away on those bass courses and listen to all those complex sounds come out. Songs that tend to work the best on a 12 have the melody on the middle strings - too much on the top ones tends to sound like a big mandolin. Think of SRV's "Life By the Drop" or EC's "Alberta" or the Roof Top Singers "Walk Right In" or Jesse Fullers "SF Bay Blues" - all are simple songs that sound so much better on a 12'er.

 

One last suggestion, come hang out at the Cafe'

 

UMGF 12 String Cafe'

 

You are going to enjoy that new baby!

[Samilyn]

and while I am not "the resident expert".......

I beg to differ.

 

.....if it is in the sound hole slacken the middle courses. I use a long allen wrench in a screwdriver type handle - you should be able to reach the rod pretty easily.

The ones with the screwdriver handle are definitely the easiest to use.

 

Many 12 string players choose to tune down - one or two semitones is common (ie D# or D). This is easy to do with a chromatic tuner.

Definitely. Tuning a 12-er is very painless with one of these. I tune down 1/2 step to D# - the git sounds great and I get a much-needed vocal break.

 

Players that regularly tune down include Leo Kottke (C#) and Heddy Leadbetter (C or even lower) - in fact Kottkes signature roar is due to his low tunings and fat strings. One big disadvantage of downtuning is that it is hard to sing or play with other people without transposing or capoing.

Transposing is good mental exercise and makes you learn some new chords. Not a bad thing at all.

 

I don't use a capo on my 12's but if you do be aware that it will probably pull it out of tune, particularly the octave strings.

They are indeed problematic on a 12-er. Go learn some new chords.

 

 

I happened to be watching a couple of Kottke vids last night and it got me inspired to play the old Martin 12. My gosh, what a big wonderful sound - you can just hammer away on those bass courses and listen to all those complex sounds come out.

YESSSSSS!!!!!

 

You are going to enjoy that new baby!

You sure are.

[jerime]

Thanks for all the info. I was going to ask about capos but I think Freeman covered it. I would ask what brand you would recommend but I know that Shubb is fairly highly thought of around here so I may check them out. I have a couple other brands but they aren't the greatest in the world.

 

I didn't know they made silk and steel strings for 12ers. I may check those out.

[Freeman Keller]

 

Thanks for all the info. I was going to ask about capos but I think Freeman covered it. I would ask what brand you would recommend but I know that Shubb is fairly highly thought of around here so I may check them out. I have a couple other brands but they aren't the greatest in the world. I didn't know they made silk and steel strings for 12ers. I may check those out.

 

 

Be sure the capos you try are wide enough for a 12 string neck. I have a Shubb that is designed for a 12 (but I rarely use it) - you might ask what Terry Allan Hall uses.

 

Personally I'm not a fan of silk and steel strings but others like them.

 

There are also a few 12 string threads running right now

 

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1869169

 

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1867154

 

in the last one find the two vids posted by OldGuitarPlayer

[jerime]

I'm slightly confused now on what kind of strings to get, that's what I get for thinking too much I guess. I really don't see much in the way of silk and steels, basically Martin and Ernie Ball. The Ernie Balls look like they would be too light though.

 

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Ernie-Ball-2051-Earthwood-8020-Bronze-Silk-Steel-12String-Soft-Acoustic-Strings?sku=100728

 

The Martins seem better.

 

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Martin-M200-Folk-12String-Silk-Steel-Round-Wound-Acoustic-Strings?sku=100041

 

but, I'm not sure now. I would hate to buy silk and steels and not be happy with them mostly cause it would be a pain in the ass to change them if I don't like them. Anyone know of any sound clips with silk and steels being used on a 12er by chance? I've had silk and steels on one of my 6ers and liked them, but who knows what I'll like on the 12. In any case I'm itching to get the thing strung up and start playing cause I've got a bad case of the 12 string blues.

[rjoxyz]

 

Thanks for all the info. I was going to ask about capos but I think Freeman covered it. I would ask what brand you would recommend but I know that Shubb is fairly highly thought of around here so I may check them out. I have a couple other brands but they aren't the greatest in the world. I didn't know they made silk and steel strings for 12ers. I may check those out.

 

 

 

I have settled on the Planet Waves NS capo as my favorite (also own Shubb, Kyser and Dunlop). It is unobtrusive and allows precise dial in of tension to avoid pulling out of tune. I bought it for my 6 strings and discovered it will cover the neck on my 12 too. Can be used with one hand after just a little experience with it.

[jerime]

I've ran into some problems with my 12er. First off I've adjusted the truss rod about as far as I feel safe with and my relief still seems excessive. About .025 in fact. The action at the 12th is high, about 1/8th. I don't know how much further down I can go with the saddle though, because there really isn't much left sticking out or the bridge. Any ideas? I got this guitar off ebay as a B stock, but that was for finish flaws.

[Freeman Keller]

 

I've ran into some problems with my 12er. First off I've adjusted the truss rod about as far as I feel safe with and my relief still seems excessive. About .025 in fact. The action at the 12th is high, about 1/8th. I don't know how much further down I can go with the saddle though, because there really isn't much left sticking out or the bridge. Any ideas? I got this guitar off ebay as a B stock, but that was for finish flaws.

 

 

Oh, boy. Stop right here and go to the HCAG Annex (the pink thing in my sig), click the Tech Tab and read "Is my Guitar Sick". Then lets do the fundimental checks - all the potential humidity issues, then neck angle. then take all the measurements before you change anything. My rule of thumb is that if you have acceptable action AND about an 1/8 of an inch of saddle your neck angle is good - if your action is 1/8 (too high in my book) and you have very little saddle you've got other problems. Lets do the yardstick check.

 

It sounds like you understand the relationship between relief and action, but you should be able to set the relief on a new guitar about anywhere you want it, even back bowing the neck. You are tightening it about 1/8 turn at at time and letting it set for a bit I hope - you should see strong reaction to maybe a quarter turn.

 

Do the measurements and report back - we'll worry about strings later (and I'll convince you to use Elixer lights)

[jerime]

I've been going off your "Is my guitar sick" now for a while and the more I look at it them more I think my guitar is sick, something nasty too.

 

Like I said before the relief is some where in the neighborhood of .025, that's capoed at the 1st and fretted at the 14th and measured at the 6th low E. When I put a straight edge on it at the 6th the measurement is a bit more than .025 (that's all the further my feelers gauge goes too).

 

The neck angle seems ok. With the straight edge it is just a hair under the bridge. And like I said the action is somewhere in the neighborhood of 1/8th.

 

I've been slowly tightening the truss rod since last night and I don't feel safe tightening any more. I don't know what sound a truss rod makes when it breaks, but I don't ever want to hear that sound. the turns have been about 1/8 of a turn (I may have gotten over zealous and gone a 1/4 once). It may have gone 2 rotations or so since last night. Without any tension on the neck I can still see a bow in the neck and it gets worse with the strings strung to concert pitch.

 

So what's the damage doc?

 

BTW...I really appreciate all the advise and help I've gotten from Freeman and everyone else on the forum. Because of that this is really the only forum I frequent.

[Samilyn]

Thanks for all the info. I was going to ask about capos but I think Freeman covered it. I would ask what brand you would recommend but I know that Shubb is fairly highly thought of around here so I may check them out. I have a couple other brands but they aren't the greatest in the world. I didn't know they made silk and steel strings for 12ers. I may check those out.

 

My favorite S&S set is D'Angelico #500SS. (Not to be confused to D'Addario!) Gauged 11-50, silver wrap. Currently $9.10 per set at JustStrings.com. Here's a link - the S&S set is towards the bottom of the page:

http://www.juststrings.com/dangelicotwelvestringguitar.html

 

Sorry to read your git is sick. I hope it proves to be something that's easily resolved.

[Clif Schlicher]

Sorry.........a bit OT.

 

Samilyn you had already interested me in the S & S. Then a friend gave me a set of Martin S & S for Christmas. I haven't tried them yet, as I had just changed the strings on both guitars. I'll probably put them on the Martin 12. Your description, "harp-like", intrigues me.

 

Anyone else out there using S & S on a 12?

[JerseyGuy]

Jerime, IMHO, run, do not walk, to the nearest experienced tech and hand it over to him/her to fix. Be sure to tell all that you have done. Twelves are just too prone to problems because of all the extra tension. I just had the neck reset on my old Taylor 655 and we all know Taylors are very high quality builds. I would not try to do any more messing.

 

Clif, I was inspired by Samilyn to try S&S on my Seagull 12 and all I could get locally here was D'Addadrios, they are really nice and sweet sounding and much much easier to play. Sorry I don't remember the gauge. I still have PB on my Taylor but they're getting near the end and I'll put the S&S on that, too, although I fear it will be too bright, since Taylors are brighter than most. But while re-stringing is a pain, I find one of the things I am enjoying right now is trying all sorts of different strings and the rather different sounds they can produce.

[Clif Schlicher]

 

I find one of the things I am enjoying right now is trying all sorts of different strings and the rather different sounds they can produce.

 

 

............and an opportunity as well.

 

Clif

[Samilyn]

Clif, I was inspired by Samilyn to try S&S on my Seagull 12 and all I could get locally here was D'Addadrios, they are really nice and sweet sounding and much much easier to play. Sorry I don't remember the gauge. I still have PB on my Taylor but they're getting near the end and I'll put the S&S on that, too, although I fear it will be too bright, since Taylors are brighter than most. But while re-stringing is a pain, I find one of the things I am enjoying right now is trying all sorts of different strings and the rather different sounds they can produce.

 

I'm glad you like them too! If I remember correctly, the D'Addario set is gauged the same as the Martin ones, 11-47.

 

I enjoy experimenting, too, changing strings and bridge pins, just to see how many voices my git has. These wonderful wooden boxes of ours have lots of pleasant surprises in store for us, some quite different, but equally pleasing in their own way.

[melandy]

 

I've been slowly tightening the truss rod since last night and I don't feel safe tightening any more.

 

 

Ok, I know this is a stupid question, but it's gotta be asked...

 

You are using the righty-tighty, lefty-loosey method to know which direction to turn, right?

 

-A

 

EDIT: more stupid questions:

 

I reread the initial post, and noticed that you said you were popping strings when tuning.

 

Are you using a tuner, or tuning by ear?

 

Are you tuning to standard (EADGBe)? If tuning by ear, are you sure?

 

It sounds like it might be possible (although unlikely) that you're tuning too high, putting more tension on the neck than it can handle.

[Freeman Keller]

 

Jerime, IMHO, run, do not walk, to the nearest experienced tech and hand it over to him/her to fix. Be sure to tell all that you have done. Twelves are just too prone to problems because of all the extra tension. I just had the neck reset on my old Taylor 655 and we all know Taylors are very high quality builds. I would not try to do any more messing.

 

 

Yes, plus one to this. It is almost impossible to diagnose this in an internet forum (doc, it hurts on my left side, where do I cut to take my appendix out?). Since it is a new guitar can you take it back where you bought it? As you know I believe that a store owe it to the new owner to set the guitar up correctly. You mentioned some blems or something - is is possible that it had other damage.

 

A good 12 string is a pleasure, but a bad one will never be fun to play.

[jerime]

 

Ok, I know this is a stupid question, but it's gotta be asked... You are using the righty-tighty, lefty-loosey method to know which direction to turn, right? -A EDIT: more stupid questions: I reread the initial post, and noticed that you said you were popping strings when tuning. Are you using a tuner, or tuning by ear? Are you tuning to standard (EADGBe)? If tuning by ear, are you sure? It sounds like it might be possible (although unlikely) that you're tuning too high, putting more tension on the neck than it can handle.

 

 

Yes, I'm using righty-tighty. I thought of that and had to check myself just to make sure. And yes I'm using a tuner. I think the reason the strings were breaking one because they were the ones that came on the guitar and no telling how long they've been on there and two because I tuned up to E and then tuned down a step to see if it effected the bow in the neck any and it really didn't so I tuned back up and "POP".

[melandy]

 

Yes, I'm using righty-tighty. I thought of that and had to check myself just to make sure. And yes I'm using a tuner. I think the reason the strings were breaking one because they were the ones that came on the guitar and no telling how long they've been on there...

 

 

Gotcha. I just had that sinking sensation and thought I'd check before things went horribly, horribly wrong.

 

-A

[Samilyn]

I once had a git that popped strings like crazy. Didn't know diddly about gits or setups in those days. Took it to a git playing friend who told me someone had crammed huge strings in dinky nut slots. (Wasn't me who strung it.)

 

Supposedly the string wraps were being "shredded" by the slot as the string passed through it during tuning. Dunno if that was true or an old wives tale, but to this day I get the heebie-jeebies when I hear a string squeak like that.

[jerime]

I sent an email to the seller. It was a B stock because of finish blems, not anthing else at least that is the way the seller disclosed it. I'll keep you up dated on the situation.