Shimming a neck

[Knottyhed]

Ok, so i've got a guitar and I'm unable to give it a super-low action without losing the play in the floyd trem (as I've lowered it too much). I've come to the conclusion that the neck angle is the problem and therefore I need to shim the neck (it's bolt on). Anybody any advice about this - i've looked on a few guitar sites and most of them are suggesting I shim it using business card - surely that'd dampen vibrations and lose me sustain and tone? Anybody done this and found any problems?

 

Basically, I'm after advice on what to be aware of when shimming the neck (as I've never done it before) and what material to use to do it.

[Dougy]

A piece of cardboard should be fine, or maybe even a thin plectrum.

As far as sustain goes, you generally get less sustain with a floating trem anyway, so you may not even notice a difference.

[Ke^in]

I would use thin card stock.

Like a cover of a phone book first.

[Bloozcat]

Yes, use a thin card or as suggested, a piece of phone book cover. Something with a shiny looking surface I've found to work best. Material like that seems to be a little denser and compresses less. Really thin plastic works well, if you can find some.

Just remember that you don't need but one really thin piece of material to make a difference. It doesn't seem logical that something the thickness of a business card could alter the neck angle much, but it definitely does.

[Knottyhed]

Thanks for the input so far guys. Sounds like I have nothing to worry about as far as my guitar's existing tone is concerned. How should I cut the card - I gather off Jemsite that 10x57mm is about right (57mm being the width of the neck pocket). I think 10mm is a little under 1/2 an inch for those of us that don't use metric.

I'm also assuming that in my case I need to place the shim at the body end to tilt the headstock backwards...

[M-1 Fan]

I used two guitar picks under my '62 Tele's neck and it works fine.

[Knottyhed]

Originally posted by M-1 Fan I used two guitar picks under my '62 Tele's neck and it works fine.

 

 

Thanks for the tip. That's probably a very good idea as it'll make it easy to experiement with different thicknesses.

 

I assume it really is a fairly simple mod, I've never un-bolted a guitar's neck so if there's anything I need to look out for i might as well find out now.

 

It kinda surprises me a bit, with the way people rave on about the various merits of set necks, tight neck pockets, thick finishes, vibration transfer etc. that jamming a couple of picks or a business card between where your neck joins the body appears to have no noticable effect.

[Bloozcat]

I just cut the shim to about the width of the underside of the neck surface where it contacts the neck pocket. I usually punch two holes in the shim (with a paper hole puncher) at the width of the holes in the neck pocket. When I go to re-assemble the neck to the body I have no worries about the shim shifting out of place as the neck screws will keep it in where it belongs.

BTW: I just shimmed the neck on one of my Strat clones I made and there was no loss of tone or sustain. As a metter of fact, this guitar sustains quite well, no doubt due in no small part to the steel trem block I have in it.

[M-1 Fan]

Weird, , , but I can actually remove the guitar's neck with the strings still on it. I just slacken them up a whole lot and make sure that the peg windings are uniform when I re-attache the neck. I hate to waste strings, and it's always hard to restring a guitar with the old strings.

[blueswoman]

I had the exact same problem a month ago with a "new" used RG550Ltd.

I put a pen, resting on a wadded up thick paper towel under the Floyd to keep it from moving and keep it in the same position.

Then I unlocked the nut, loosened the strings and relocked the locking nut. I then took the neck off with the strings still on.

I used a business card - cut a small piece that would fit between the two screw holes in the neck pocked and folded it over - so it was thicker than just a card. Then I used a tiny piece of double sided tape to hold it in place when I put the neck back on.

Also, the way the neck was cut, I put another small shim running up the bass side of the neck.

Then I put everything back together and tuned her up.

It plays excellent now, low action. The strings are now the same distance away along the neck all the way to the body. I did have to raise the action a bit. But before I did this, I had the studs all the way down and could not lower them anymore and still had high action by the body. Now its perfect and have room to lower the action if need be.

Oh, and there was no difference in tone.

Hey, if I can do it - anyone can!

[Knottyhed]

Originally posted by blueswoman I had the exact same problem a month ago with a "new" used RG550Ltd. I put a pen, resting on a wadded up thick paper towel under the Floyd to keep it from moving and keep it in the same position. Then I unlocked the nut, loosened the strings and relocked the locking nut. I then took the neck off with the strings still on. I used a business card - cut a small piece that would fit between the two screw holes in the neck pocked and folded it over - so it was thicker than just a card. Then I used a tiny piece of double sided tape to hold it in place when I put the neck back on. Also, the way the neck was cut, I put another small shim running up the bass side of the neck. Then I put everything back together and tuned her up. It plays excellent now, low action. The strings are now the same distance away along the neck all the way to the body. I did have to raise the action a bit. But before I did this, I had the studs all the way down and could not lower them anymore and still had high action by the body. Now its perfect and have room to lower the action if need be. Oh, and there was no difference in tone. Hey, if I can do it - anyone can!

 

 

That's good to know - sounds like you had exactly the same problem i've got, and on a similar style guitar. I'm going to have a go over the weekend and i'll let you all know how it went.

[VanR]

1/2" is too much in my experience. I usually cut a business card the width of the neck pocket and about 1/4" wide. I don't go as far as the screw holes. Just cut the shim to fit in the space between the screw holes and the back of the neck pocket.

[MoreCowbell]

Hate to be the naysayer here, but my YJM strat had a thick paper stock shim and it was absolutley wrecking the tone. I mean destroying it, it couldn't figure out why the guitar had this dull tone even with new strings. So I took the neck off to look around, saw this small piece of card stock, took it out, reassembled, and viola, it sounded like a different guitar. It now has all the tone and zing you'd expect from a good strat.

So I guess give it a try and see where you wind up. Maybe yours will be one of those guitars that isn't effect so much. Just make sure you listen to it. Mine was like night and day. And this coming from a guy that doesn't a whole lot of stock in alot of the little things guitars players like to claim make a huge difference in tone.

Good luck.

[Knottyhed]

Well - I did it and the results are great

It's like a different guitar now - I've got a nice slick action with no buzzing and full play in the floyd trem

I've listened *very* carefully for any loss of tone and sustain - if there has been i sure can't hear it. If anything the tone and sustain has been improved as i've been able to set the guitar up so much better and the strings buzz far less with an action that is considerably lower than it was before.

I ended up going for 2 peices of business card at the body end and much to my surprise i think it might have made the angle slightly too steep, so i may well take the neck off again and remove one as i could possibly get the action even lower.

Thanks again for the advice and encouragement guys - I can't believe how easy it was in the end.

[ThomasD]

My two cent opinion:

The loss of tone associated with a poor action (mainly fret buzz - audible or not) significantly exceeds the tone loss associated with a paper/cardstock/wood shim.

Therefore, shim away. If I'm wrong you can always undo it.

[Knottyhed]

Originally posted by ThomasD My two cent opinion: The loss of tone associated with a poor action (mainly fret buzz - audible or not) significantly exceeds the tone loss associated with a paper/cardstock/wood shim. Therefore, shim away. If I'm wrong you can always undo it.

 

 

Yep - i think that's about the size of it.

 

Interestingly I took the guitar to a luthier yesterday - not to get it set up but because i really like the neck profile and want something similar for a custom build. I mentioned that i'd had to shim the neck to get a decent playing action and that i was unable to reduce the bow from the neck using the truss-rod (this was part of the original problem with the action). He loosened the strings off and examined it and it would appear the rod is broken, apparently it's lucky the neck isn't mahogany or i'd be in some serious trouble. The thing is that i've never forced the rod and never heard a 'cracking' noise when adjusting, so chances are this was either done by some cowboy at one of the music shops i've taken it to for setups (the "setup" i got at these places is what made me start setting up my own guitars) or it may have even left the factory like that.

[MoreCowbell]

Originally posted by Knottyhed I mentioned that i'd had to shim the neck to get a decent playing action and that i was unable to reduce the bow from the neck using the truss-rod (this was part of the original problem with the action). He loosened the strings off and examined it and it would appear the rod is broken, apparently it's lucky the neck isn't mahogany or i'd be in some serious trouble. .

 

 

Yeah, it's amazing how a relatively small bow will change teh action quite a bit, a large bow will make it really high. Too bad you can't fix it. I prefer a larger than normal relief in the neck (I have a whole rationale of measuremets on that one), but most people don't like a whole lot. But even for me, there's a point where if it's too much you can't do much with it.

[Knottyhed]

Originally posted by MoreCowbell Yeah, it's amazing how a relatively small bow will change teh action quite a bit, a large bow will make it really high. Too bad you can't fix it. I prefer a larger than normal relief in the neck (I have a whole rationale of measuremets on that one), but most people don't like a whole lot. But even for me, there's a point where if it's too much you can't do much with it.

 

 

Well - even with the un-fixable bow in the neck i've managed to get it playing pretty good with the neck shim so i'm as happy as i can be for someone with a broken truss rod - lol. The maple neck is obviously strong enough to take the tension on it's own, so i don't suppose i'll see further problems. Apart from anything else I've learnt something new, and that's never a bad thing.

[NoirAbattoir]

I hear people describing different ways to do this.

How big should the card be and where exactly do I put it under the neck? Closest to the body? Closest to the headstock? Should it cover the entire pocket of the body?

I have an old kramer which may need a shim. The action is as low as I can take it and it's still a bit high for me.

[Knottyhed]

Originally posted by ColorsoundKid I hear people describing different ways to do this. How big should the card be and where exactly do I put it under the neck? Closest to the body? Closest to the headstock? Should it cover the entire pocket of the body? I have an old kramer which may need a shim. The action is as low as I can take it and it's still a bit high for me.

 

 

I'm no expert cos i only did it the once, but i cut the card about 1cm wide and big enough to fill the pocket length ways. If you need to tilt the neck down place the shim at the body end of the pocket.

[jjpistols]

Originally posted by M-1 Fan I used two guitar picks under my '62 Tele's neck and it works fine.

that's how I did it last time - that's how I'll do it next time

[MoreCowbell]

I wonder if there's more of a tone difference if the shim is as the headstock end of the pocket (raising the action) vs at the body end of the pocket. In my YJM, it was at the headstock end and it absolutley destroyed the tone. I wouldn't think it would matter, but who knows.

[Knottyhed]

Originally posted by MoreCowbell I wonder if there's more of a tone difference if the shim is as the headstock end of the pocket (raising the action) vs at the body end of the pocket. In my YJM, it was at the headstock end and it absolutley destroyed the tone. I wouldn't think it would matter, but who knows.

 

 

I can imagine it'd affect the transfer of vibration between neck and body more if it's at the headstock end where it'd more directly interupt the contact of neck/body... so maybe.

[BowerR64]

I try and use sand paper or somthing that is coarse on both sides. That way there is no side to side shift from the loss of contact between the neck and pocket. One thing that i need to try is that sheetrock sandpaper, its coarse and has a wide mesh screen. Ive used paper and other things before and they shifted on me in transportation.

[Knottyhed]

Originally posted by BowerR64 I try and use sand paper or somthing that is coarse on both sides. That way there is no side to side shift from the loss of contact between the neck and pocket. One thing that i need to try is that sheetrock sandpaper, its coarse and has a wide mesh screen. Ive used paper and other things before and they shifted on me in transportation.

 

 

Side to side shift is probably something you only need to worry about if the neck pocket isn't tight fitting though?