Preamp for a ribbon mic?

[EveningSky]

I am considering buying 1-2 ribbon mics. I am still pondering which. I have read that ribbon mics require special preamps. Is that true? What should I consider when considering the ribbon-preamp combination.

Thank you,

ES;

[Phil O'Keefe]

First of all, what ribbons are you considering? That can (in some cases) make a difference. Actually, from a tone standpoint, it always makes a difference.

 

You don't really need anything "special" for ribbons - except for a lot of gain, and hopefully something that's fairly quiet at high gain settings. Most ribbons (some Royers are an exception) have very low output levels when compared to moving-coil dynamics or condenser mics, and so they need a pre that has sufficient gain. IMO, that usually means something with at least a max gain of 55 dB ot thereabouts, although it's going to depend on the output of the specific ribbon mic you're considering, as well as the sound source and where you're planning on placing that ribbon mic.

 

A few companies (Grace comes to mind) offer "ribbon versions" of some of their products, but the only real difference is usually more gain (usually at the expense of lower gain setting capabilities), and sometimes different input impedances. But almost any preamp should work - providing it has enough gain for your needs and meets your sonic preferences / requirements.

[EveningSky]

Thank you for your response Phil.

I am deliberating on that part of the purchase decision.

I have such little insight into what to consider with the choice of a ribbon. They seem to be a somewhat exotic species of mic.

You have spoken highly of the Beyerdynamic M160.

Sweetwater.com has a special offer on the M160 and the M130, both for $1000.

There are multiple choices at multiple price points, but not so many as with other types of mic. They appear to range from several $100s to approximately $1500.

What does one gain by spending more?

I know a bad question, but I do not have access to demo them and would appreciate some insight.

Yours, ES;

[Phil O'Keefe]

To be honest with you ES, I have not tried enough of the new "inexpensive" ribbon mics to offer a judgement on what you gain by spending more. It's certainly possible that someone has managed to come out with a really spectacular sounding ribbon mic for $200 or whatever, but I would remain skeptical until it's proven to me. But I don't have a closed mind / predetermined opinion about ANYTHING I have not personally heard / used, so the jury is still out from my POV.

 

The M160 IS a spectacular sounding mic on a lot of sound sources. I like them a great deal on drum overheads as well as many stringed instruments (banjo, violin / fiddle, mandolin, some ac gtr things), guitar amps and especially on sax. The hypercardioid M160, paired with the M130 bi-directional, would be a good pair if you're interested in doing MS (Mid-Side) stereo recordings. If you want spaced pairs, XY or ORTF, then IMO, you might be better off spending an extra $150 - $200 or whatever the difference is for a pair of 160's... it just comes down to how much you think you can use a bi-directional / figure 8 ribbon.

 

Royer also makes some very cool ribbons - many engineers consider them to be among the finest ribbon mics ever built, in any era. While I don't currently own any, I have heard / used them on several occasions, and I would be inclined to agree with that assessment. However, you do pay a pretty penny for them. But over a lifetime of use, that price really isn't all that much IMO.

 

Groove Tubes has a really cool looking new ribbon mic coming out soon - they showed it at NAMM - and that's something I'm really looking forward to trying out / reviewing. It uses a field replaceable ribbon "capsule", and a little bird tells me they are going to even include a spare in the package. IMO, that will probably take away some of the concerns many people have about their "first ribbon mic".

 

Anyone else have any ribbon mic suggestions / comments for EveningSky? I would like to hear from some of the Nady / Apex / Oktava et al ribbon mic owners / users.

[VockViel]

I also heard they're rolling out some new ribbons with built-in pre's... Could be worth looking into.

[EveningSky]

Thank you for your suggestions and responses.

I am concerned that the classical ribbon has a very low signal.

The idea of a ribbon with greater output (such as a ribbon with a preamp built in) attracts my attention.

Thank you again for your responses.

Yours, ES;

[GZsound]

Here is a list of output gain for various ribbon mics provided by EQ Magazine September 2005 issue:

 

Royer 122 = 23

Crowley & Tripp Proscenium = 34

Crowley & Tripp Vocalist = 34

Royer 121 = 34

Coles 4038 = 34

Coles 4040 = 34

RCA 44 = 38

RCA 77 = 39

AEA R84 = 39

Beyer M160 = 40

Nady RSM 2 = 42

AEA R92 - 43

 

Hope this helps...

[Warhead]

AEA is releasing a two channel ribbon mic preamp very soon that should street around $800. Should be interesting.

 

War

[EveningSky]

Thank you again GZ and War.

GZ, what do the numbers mean.

I am somewhat weak in interpreting mic specs, but I am confused about what the #s you listed mean?

Yours, ES

[EveningSky]

Hi War,

What is your impression and experience with the quality of the AES mic products you own/have used?

Yours, ES

[CN Fletcher]

AEA makes some absolutely drop dead gorgeous sounding microphones... the R-92 being my latest favorite for electric guitars.

 

I would highly recommend you steer clear of ANY mic pre manufacturer that has an addition strictly for ribbon mics... for they are the kind of company that will play upon the bull{censored} internet myths that crop up from the blind ignorance of Banjo Mart floor sales weasels and spread like a fire on a dry day in So Cal.

 

Any pre-amp that can do a clean 60db of gain [which is damn near all of them] will be far more than sufficient for damn near any ribbon mic.

 

Back in the day when ribbon mics ruled America microphone pre-amps built by companies like Langevin; Universal Audio; Western Electric; RCA; etc. often had fixed input gains of anywhere between 60 and 72db. Any and all "volume/level" adjustments were made after the mic pre-amp before the final mono buss mix.

 

This is why when you got loud singers like Little Richard or Aretha Franklin in front of a micrphone you heard the pre-amp crapping out [we have all fallen in love with those distortions and call it "the toob sound" but the fact of the matter was that if they could have padded the pre's down to 40db of gain the engineers back in the day would have done it gladly... but that is a story for another day].

 

While we're taking that lovely stroll down "Myth St."... unless the wiring in your studio is totally {censored}ed up... you can't/won't blow up the ribbon in a ribbon mic by accidentally leaving the phantom power engaged. You might if you run into an RCA mic that hasn't been used since the 60's [before they invented "phantom power" which was invented shortly after the FET (transistor) was invented as all the amplifiers in condenser microphones before transistors were invented were powered by tube amplifiers]... it might have a center tap from the transformer connected to pin 1 on an XLR giving the phantom power going through the output transformer a ground reference... however every ribbon mic built or used since the advent of phantom power has only had that 'center tap' accident happen to it once... and then it was cured so you wouldn't have a problem plugging a ribbon mic into a line with phantom on it.

 

BTW. The Beyer M-160 is a lovely sounding microphone with a bazillion uses... if this is going to be your first experience with a ribbon mic a Beyer M-160 or an RCA BK-5 would be my suggestions on where to start.

 

Best of luck with your search!!!

[GZsound]

 

Originally posted by EveningSky Thank you again GZ and War. GZ, what do the numbers mean. I am somewhat weak in interpreting mic specs, but I am confused about what the #s you listed mean? Yours, ES

 

 

I'm sorry, I should have posted the information in how they got the readings.

 

From the article:

"I noted how much gain each mic took as I mic'd the guitar cabinet. Not intended as a scientific measurement (far from it), these are simply the face plate marking from the Chandler TG2's. They are only intended as a simple reference."

 

So, it appears that from top to bottom, the mic with the lowest output is at the bottom of the list. The Royer 122 took the least amount of gain and the R92 took the most.

 

Again, it is just a guide, and the only actual "hands on" output gain reference I could find quickly.

[EveningSky]

Dear Fletcher and GZ,

Thank you both for your responses to my questions.

This web site is so helpful to me!

Fletcher, does your recommendation that I consider the Beyer M160 imply that Ribbons require a certain level of expertice and experience to use effectively (perhaps similar to, but to a greater degree than to other types of mic)?

One of the popular web retailers is selling the M160 together with the M130 (a hypercardioid, sinlgle ribbon) for a special price. Should I consider this 2 for ... deal? Does your positive experience with the Beyerdynamics Ribbon M160 also extend to the M130? I read little on these BBs about the M130.

Thank you, yours, ES

[Phil O'Keefe]

I'm sure Fletcher will get back to you with his POV, but IMO, the 160 is good for ribbon mic noobs for a couple of reasons. First of all, as a couple of us have said, they're very good sounding mics, and they're not silly-expensive. IOW, good bang for the bucks. Second, they work well on a lot of different sound sources. That versatility is nice when you don't have a large mic collection to choose from. Finally, they're fairly rugged by ribbon mic standards, but as with all ribbons, blowing into them is never a good idea. IOW, use a pop screen if you're gonna sing into a ribbon mic.

 

The 160 is also a hyper-cardioid mic, while many ribbons are bi-directional. IOW, if your acoustical environment is less than ideal, you will pick up less "room" from the 160 than you would from, say a M130 placed in the same spot.

 

Beyond the polar pattern differences, the 160 and 130 are pretty similar sounding mics IMO. As I said earlier, I'd base my decision (M160 / M130 vs two M160's) on what type of stereo recording you're more likely to want to do. You have more options with a pair of M160's (XY, spaced pairs, ORTF, etc.), but if you're a fan of M-S, then the 160 / 130 pair is the obvious choice.

[GZsound]

Not to slightly change the subject, but do any of you know anything about the Beyer M260 mic?

 

I have one, and from what I have been told, there are two different 260's. One has a bass roll off and one doesn't.

 

But... I cannot confirm that is the case. One of the last ribbon reviews of ribbon mics did include an M260, but said it had a bass roll off.

 

I bought my mic in the seventies and I'm almost certain it is a "full range mic"... Anybody know about this dilema?

[GZsound]

Sorry.. Ignore that last post..

 

I forgot that my M260 is no longer a stock mic. I had Stephen Sank modify it with an RCA 77 ribbon.. so never mind. I are dum.

[CN Fletcher]

 

Originally posted by EveningSky Fletcher, does your recommendation that I consider the Beyer M160 imply that Ribbons require a certain level of expertice and experience to use effectively (perhaps similar to, but to a greater degree than to other types of mic)?

 

 

Not at all... it implies that I think an M-160 is a great tool that should serve you well.

 

GZ... sorry to hear you allowed a perfectly good M-260 to be 'Sank-ti-fied'... it you like the sound of it... Mazol Tov... but I've never heard anything Sank's done that has been worth a damn.

 

A stock 260 is a thing of sheer beauty... anything else is a matter of choice... sort of like an abortion is a choice...

 

Peace.

[GZsound]

 

Originally posted by Fletcher@mercenary.com Not at all... it implies that I think an M-160 is a great tool that should serve you well. GZ... sorry to hear you allowed a perfectly good M-260 to be 'Sank-ti-fied'... it you like the sound of it... Mazol Tov... but I've never heard anything Sank's done that has been worth a damn. A stock 260 is a thing of sheer beauty... anything else is a matter of choice... sort of like an abortion is a choice... Peace.

 

 

Yeah... the jury is still out. I did have a major problem getting it returned to me. I had to file a police report for theft, etc. But it did get home eventually.

 

The original problem was that it has been losing gain over the last couple years. Keep in mind I bought it in 1975. Turns out replacing the ribbon didn't resolve the gain problem at all.

 

Mr. Sank told me the problem was that the stock ribbon had fatigued and a ribbon replacement would bring it back... Not so. Output is still down even after the Sank modification...IF it was even modified..I don't know how to tell.

 

So then..since I always do stuff backwards...I called Beyer. The tech told me it was the magnet structure getting weak and they would rebuild the mic to brand new specs for something like $130. It's going to them shortly.

 

Lesson learned..