Members crossways Posted March 19, 2008 Members Share Posted March 19, 2008 I didn't want to hijack the other thread, but had been thinking about this very thing. A couple of years ago the band I was in decided to do what all bands do from time to time....make a cd. I enjoy doing and learning for myself so I bought a computer based system using an EMU interface. Our first attempt took us to my church, not a good room, but the only room we had. Using a couple of "choir" mics for over heads and some SM57s on the snare and bass (best we had..all we had really) I should add that the EMU I have has a limit of 6 inputs. In order for us to track this way, we could really only use four for drums, one for scratch guitar, one for scratch vox. The result: not very good at all. in the mix there was no bass drum and lots of cymbal (partial due to the way our drummer played IMO, but still) Now he had a killer DW set with great cymbals and hardware...live the kit is amazing. Attempt #2: This time I bought a Yamaha DTXtreme III special. A decent ele. kit and ran it stereo DI to Sonar. I know that every drummer is rolling their eyes right now, and I understand. ele. kits are not as satisfying to play nor do they "feel" the same. In this set up we could do more of a "live" recording and hear each other equally well, recording drums, guitar, vox, and bass. The result: this was much better. The drums were clear, you could feel the kick and it seemed much more balanced. So: I know that if you have the money and the know-how a good engineer can make a good kit sound incredible. But for us wanna-bees with limited cash, would you invest the extra money in mics and a room so you could use an acoustic kit, or would you go the simpler/easier route (like I did) and go DI?...since these recordings aren't for industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hugh manatee Posted March 19, 2008 Members Share Posted March 19, 2008 as an engineer, i always push people who are recording to rent a room, but if you dont have funds and are ok using an electronic kit go for it. its not like someone is going to not buy or listen to you guys because you didnt use a real drum kit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted March 19, 2008 Moderators Share Posted March 19, 2008 "So: I know that if you have the money and the know-how a good engineer can make a good kit sound incredible. But for us wanna-bees with limited cash, would you invest the extra money in mics and a room so you could use an acoustic kit, or would you go the simpler/easier route (like I did) and go DI?...since these recordings aren't for industry." Well, since you asked... I'd stick with the acoustic kit everytime. There's no reason you shouldn't have been able to get the setup you originally used to get at least a decent sound on that kit. Providing a couple of things... 1. Providing the kit had new heads and was tuned. At the very least, buy some standard head combinations (top and bottom) and a Drumdial. It will sound great. 2. Providing the "choir mics" weren't designed to roll off lows and accentuate highs, which might be very likely. 3. Providing you used some very basic but standard eq curves on your kick and snare mics, and that they were placed in logical spots. There is tons ond tons of info on these points above available on the internet. Dig around. A pair of very passable OHs could be had for under $200. The 57 for snare is great. The 57 for kick... you can make it work. There are mics designed for this app and they excel at it, but you can make a 57 sound fine. Drums break they rules when it comes to eq. In order to get a close mic on a drum to sound anything like the real drum, extensive eq is not only recommended, it's required. Aggressively scoop out between 200 and 400 on your kick. On a 57 I'd be scooping out a lot. 10db? Why not. It'll need it. But it will sound pretty close to a modern kick. then bump up between 3k to 6k a couple dB, or a lot if you're into uber cookie monster mondo kicks. Bump up a little at between 40 to 80. 60 is a good spot. The snare is less obvious as to what you need to do to it. Boost some between 120 and 200 or 250. I like to find the spot where the fundamental is of the drum and bump that up a little. So sweep between those ranges to find it. Then just bump it a little to fatten. Then, there's going to be these boxy boing freqs coming off the close 57 so find them and notch out a little (or a lot). Some where in the 500Hz area. Then find where your sizzle (6K?) or rattle or smack is and bump that (1k to 5k?). If you do any of these things without listening, you'll either pick the wrong frequency or you'll add or take away too much. These are frequencies I start at and go digging. Listen. Don't read the recipe and hope for the best. For Overheads, since I've switched to the "Glyn Johns" style setup a few years ago, I've had no issues with cymbals. None. (Google "Recorderman drums") Barely any eq is used on my OHs. Sometimes a little shelf at 10k. Sometimes I'll roll the lows out a little. But mostly, for me, I like my OHs flat. Take your time placing them and they'll sound great. You could eBay the electro kit and get nice OH mics and either a D6, D112, or RE20 for your kick. And if you rehead and tune those drums, your toms will sound so good with no close mics. Providing you've placed those OHs well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members crossways Posted March 19, 2008 Author Members Share Posted March 19, 2008 very cool...good info. What about the room...can you still get a decent sound in any room? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted March 19, 2008 Moderators Share Posted March 19, 2008 Not in any room. If it had an 8 foot ceiling, I'd be putting 4" of OC 703 directly above the drums in a 4 foot by 4 foot square. This will make that 1st reflection disappear. You'll still have it's room mode freq to deal with (around 70Hz), but it'll work. Then, if the walls are pretty close, I'd deaden up the close walls with similar material. What are the rough dimentions of the room in question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted March 19, 2008 Moderators Share Posted March 19, 2008 BTW, in my first post, when I say scoop, I mean a wide Q. Notch is a narrow Q. Bump is 1-3 dB with probably a 1.0 Q. That is roughly what I'm talking about when I use those terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members crossways Posted March 19, 2008 Author Members Share Posted March 19, 2008 Well, my studio is 8' ceiling in a 16' by 13' basicaly rectangular room with irregularities (staircase, windows, built-in shelves). One reason I also bough the ele. kit was to be able to work anytime, even with my two boys asleep upstairs. but there are times I could go acoustic...so I will keep this stuff in mind. The original room was a mid-size church sanctuary ( 25' ceiling - guess)also there was an approx. 20x15 cynder block box, carpeted floors, 8' ceiling that we practiced in that we considered. FWIW I have a 4 panel 5' plexi shield at my home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted March 19, 2008 Moderators Share Posted March 19, 2008 FWIW I have a 4 panel 5' plexi shield at my home. Only useful for isolating drums from other instrument and visa versa. Edit: I just got an idea. Buy 703 and bags from Ready Acoustics. hang those from the inside of the plexi shield. You won't have to build gobos. Set it up with one side open and pointing into the books from as far as you can get. That way you've deadened the earliest refections and left the diffuse, farther away refections, hopefully giving your drums a little space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members crossways Posted March 19, 2008 Author Members Share Posted March 19, 2008 cool! Great ideas, I'll have to try! My wife may not love it, but who cares..hahaha.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted March 19, 2008 Moderators Share Posted March 19, 2008 cool! Great ideas, I'll have to try! My wife may not love it, but who cares..hahaha.... I get that. I schedule my drum sessions very carefully... "OK honey... so you are working all day Saturday. Right?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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