Members dvkerner96 Posted April 7, 2018 Members Share Posted April 7, 2018 Hello everyone, I'm getting specs together for a custom guitar build, and I'm wondering if having a 12" radius on a 25.5" scale length would feel awkward or weird in any way. I'm used to playing guitars that have a 24.75" scale length with a 12" radius, so that's where I'm coming from. Does a neck with a 24.75" scale length and 12" radius feel different than a neck with a 25.5" scale length and a 12" radius? And if so, in what way(s)? Let me know what you think! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted April 7, 2018 Members Share Posted April 7, 2018 Why should it feel "awkward or weird"? The tension will go up about 5 percent (assuming you use the same gauge strings), the nut will move 3/4 of an inch farther away from the bridge, but other than that it will feel like a neck with a 12 inch radius. I just finished refretting an old SRV strat neck - it happened to be 12 inch radius. The owner likes it just fine. However, my recommendation whenever you have something custom done is to play a guitar with similar specifications. I have customers that bring me a guitar and ask me to duplicate the neck - IMHO that is as important as scale or f/b radius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dvkerner96 Posted April 7, 2018 Author Members Share Posted April 7, 2018 Thank you for your reply! I just wasn't sure if it'd feel awkward or weird because I didn't realize that 25.5" scale length is often paired with a 12" radius. I've played mostly 24.75" scale necks with 12" radii, and the 25.5" scale necks I've played had either the vintage strat radii (I think between 7" and 9.5"), 14" radius, or 20" radius. The difference in the radius made it hard for me to really tell whether it was the scale length making a big difference, or the radius making a big difference! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dvkerner96 Posted April 7, 2018 Author Members Share Posted April 7, 2018 Also, I played a couple of guitars with similar specs, but wasn't able to find a 25.5" scale with a 12" radius in the store to try out. The closest I got to that was 25.5" scale, 14" radius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted April 8, 2018 Members Share Posted April 8, 2018 Both of my main electrics have 25.5 scale and 10-16" compound radius. A 12 should feel great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dvkerner96 Posted April 8, 2018 Author Members Share Posted April 8, 2018 Thank you for your reply! What gauge strings do you use on your 25.5 scale guitars? I use 12s on my current guitar, which has a 24.75 scale, and I've heard that the longer 25.5 scale length adds resistance, so I'm wondering how much more difficult it would be to play with 12s on the longer scale. I like some resistance, but not too much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Spring Li Posted April 8, 2018 Members Share Posted April 8, 2018 They are play very similar. maybe you can have a try compound radius. If you are interested in a custom guitar. 10S Custom Guitars may helps you to do it. https://www.10sguitars.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dvkerner96 Posted April 8, 2018 Author Members Share Posted April 8, 2018 Thank you for that information! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted April 8, 2018 Members Share Posted April 8, 2018 I use 10-46 gauge on electric usually. 12-53 on acoustic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted April 8, 2018 Members Share Posted April 8, 2018 Regardless of scale length... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members onelife Posted April 8, 2018 Members Share Posted April 8, 2018 The Gibson Johnny A. Signature guitar, like Gibson's solid wood jazz boxes, has a 25.5" scale length and 12" fingerboard radius. Here's a short video where Johnny describes the reasons for some of his design choices. [video=youtube_share;gK5maK8beiQ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members onelife Posted April 8, 2018 Members Share Posted April 8, 2018 Thank you for your reply! What gauge strings do you use on your 25.5 scale guitars? I use 12s on my current guitar' date=' which has a 24.75 scale, and I've heard that the longer 25.5 scale length adds resistance, so I'm wondering how much more difficult it would be to play with 12s on the longer scale. I like some resistance, but not too much! [/quote'] For the most part, I use 9-46 with 25.5" scale and 10-52 with 24.75" - they feel quite similar when I switch between guitars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members onelife Posted April 8, 2018 Members Share Posted April 8, 2018 There is also an Epiphone version of the Johnny A Signature model. It too is 25.5/12. Maybe you can find one of those to try out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted April 8, 2018 Members Share Posted April 8, 2018 Thank you for your reply! What gauge strings do you use on your 25.5 scale guitars? I use 12s on my current guitar' date=' which has a 24.75 scale, and I've heard that the longer 25.5 scale length adds resistance, so I'm wondering how much more difficult it would be to play with 12s on the longer scale. I like some resistance, but not too much! [/quote'] Here is a little string tension theory ("resistance"). All of these numbers are taken from D'Addario's tension charts, they are calculated for 25.5 inch scale guitars (Fender, Martin "long' scale). They are for typical "extra light, light, medium, etc" industry designations - basically within a "set" the diameters are chosen such that the tension on each string is approximately the same as all the others. Most people don't want one string to have a lot more "resistance" as another. So, four different string sets - I'll give the name commonly used, the gauges of the 1st and 6ths string, the tension in the first string tuned to E4, and the tension of the entire set tuned to concert pitch. Gauges are in thousands of an inch, ie 9 is 0.009" Super light, 9 - 42, 13.1 pounds, 85 pounds Light 10 - 46, 16.2 pounds, 104 pounds Medium 11 - 49, 19.6 pounds, 119 pounds Heavy 12 - 56, 23.36 pounds, 146 pounds Most electric players like 9's or 10's, most acoustic players like 12's or 13's (notice that just to confuse things, 12's are considered "light" in the acoustic world). There are of course all kinds of mixed sets and the use of alternate tunings changes tensions dramaticaly. The next thing to consider is that tension is a function of scale length squared - which means that a smallish change has a bigger affect. The difference between 24.75 (Gibson) scale and 25.5 (Fender) is 2.9 percent, however the effect on tension is 5 percent. If I take that set of lights and calculate the tension on a 24.75 scale guitar it is 99 pounds total, not nearly the difference that dropping one standard size gives. So, short story, changing your scale from Gibson to Fender will increase the "resistance" by 5 percent, far less than changing string size. It will be very slightly harder to fret and bend notes, and some people feel that it changes the ratio of partials (overtones) to fundimentals, but there are so many other things going on that you would have a hard time proving it. It changes the positions of the frets and nut very slightly - if you can blindly reach for each note on your shorter scale you might have a little relearning to do (most of us compensate pretty well). I have guitars ranging from 24.5 to 27 inch scales - I play them equally poorly.. Now, coming back to your question on f/b radius, I think that is a very personal opinion. The theory is that smaller radius fretboards better fit the curve of your fingers and thus make barring easier. If you watch a classical guitarist form a barre their thumb is on the center of the back of the neck - most of us play with sloppier technique. In theory you can get slightly lower action before you fret out while bending notes (that is the whole idea of compound radius). Some people feel it is a bit faster moving around single notes for lead playing. A flatter fretboard certainly makes slide playing easier. 12 inch radius is considered flat for an electric, but that is a lot of radius for an acoustic. I happen to like 12 inch on my electrics and I like 16 or 20 inch on acoustics (I play a lot of slide). Traditionally classical guitars are dead flat, I kind of like 20 or so. However this is a really personal matter and you just have to play a lot of guitars. I think equally important is the shape and depth of the back of the neck, the width at the nut and body, the spacing of the string and the amount they are set off the edge of the neck, and of course all the parameters of action and setup. Since you are having a custom guitar built you can choose every one of those to fit your needs and playing style. Good luck, have fun specifying your guitar, keep us posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted April 8, 2018 Members Share Posted April 8, 2018 I built my L5 clone with 25.5 scale and string it with flat wound 11's. But then I don't do full step bends on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members onelife Posted April 8, 2018 Members Share Posted April 8, 2018 L5 is my dream guitar. I played one that was for sale in the late seventies for $1350 but I was playing for starvation wages and could barely afford the '63 strat that I got for $500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dvkerner96 Posted April 9, 2018 Author Members Share Posted April 9, 2018 Okay! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dvkerner96 Posted April 9, 2018 Author Members Share Posted April 9, 2018 Thanks for posting this video! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dvkerner96 Posted April 9, 2018 Author Members Share Posted April 9, 2018 How much does switching between those scale lengths affect the way you play, if at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dvkerner96 Posted April 9, 2018 Author Members Share Posted April 9, 2018 Thank you for explaining that to me! It was very informative and I appreciate it! Right now the specs I've got planned are these: Kiesel H2T, chambered mahogany body, maple top, mahogany neck (1.69" wide @ nut, 2.25" wide @ 24th fret), rosewood fingerboard, tune-o-matic bridge, 25.5" scale with 12" radius, medium-jumbo frets (either EVO gold fretwire or stainless, not sure yet), Kiesel Beryllium pickups (Alnico 2). The depth of the neck is about that of a 60's SG neck. If the ratio of partials to fundamentals is changed by the longer scale length, what affect does that have on the tone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted April 9, 2018 Members Share Posted April 9, 2018 The best I can do is quote the Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum in comparing the OM (long 25.4 scale) and 000 (short, 24.9) - otherwise they are very similar instruments As far as tone etc. goes, this subject is of course very subjective. This is a bit of an overgeneralizaiton, but many folks think that the OM has more volume and projection due to the longer scale length, and the 000 has a "Blusier" sound and is easier to play. This is from the LMII website All things being equal, a guitar with a longer scale length will sound a bit brighter, with a quicker attack and more defined bass notes. The sound will be more chime-like. The short scaled guitar will be sweeter and warmer sounding. The basses may be rounder (some might say ‘muddier’) but the highs will be more lyrical and resonant sounding. There are a bazillion other things that influence tone, of course, scale length is probably one of the least significant Will be very interested in your guitar when you get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dvkerner96 Posted April 9, 2018 Author Members Share Posted April 9, 2018 Thank you for the information, I appreciate your help! I'm curious to see how the guitar will sound. I'm basically trying to build a Les Paul/SG type of instrument, but lighter and with some extra air (hence the chambered body). I wonder if it will come out the way I hope! I'll let you know how it comes out when I get it, although that probably won't be for over a month, since the build hasn't been started yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted April 10, 2018 Members Share Posted April 10, 2018 As others on the forum know, I have built two Les Paul clones, one chambered, one not. That is the only difference other than the top wood, the chambered on (on the right) has a Spanish cedar top, the solid one (left) has a traditional maple top. Otherwise they have the same woods, scale and even pickups. When played side by side there is a very slight but detectable difference in the sound (don't ask me what it is but one night we plugged them into an A/B box into the same amp and everyone agrees they could hear it). Maybe a tiny bit more resonance, not necessarily more sustain. [img2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i51.photobucket.com\/albums\/f387\/Freeman_Keller\/Les%20Paul%20Jr\/IMG_2164_zps25a4a792.jpg"}[/img2] I did build these with conventional 24.65 scales, however when I built my archtop I went to 25.5. [img2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i51.photobucket.com\/albums\/f387\/Freeman_Keller\/Archtop\/IMG_3861_zpsjeishd74.jpg"}[/img2] Fwiw, here is the inside of the chambered guitar, it is a full pound and a half lighter than the solid one (no one argues about that difference!) [img2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i51.photobucket.com\/albums\/f387\/Freeman_Keller\/Les%20Paul%20Jr\/IMG_1947_zps7304eafb.jpg"}[/img2] As you probably know, Gibson is now "weight relieving" some of their Lesters, I've played them and they do seem lighter. I think that is a worthwhile thing for you to consider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dvkerner96 Posted April 11, 2018 Author Members Share Posted April 11, 2018 Those are some nice guitars! How does your archtop feel with that 25.5 scale length? I have tried some of the weight relieved Les Pauls, too, and they are still pretty heavy for me. I have some shoulder issues, so unfortunately the weight combined with the position of the bridge (I rest my hand on the bridge when I play) make it hard for me to play them. How much does your chambered Les Paul clone weigh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Ratae Corieltauvorum Posted April 12, 2018 Moderators Share Posted April 12, 2018 Chambered Les Pauls can get as low as 7lbs, there isn't much below the lightest Strats that can get to that without using something like Paulownia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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