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I've got a minor monitor issue, can anyone give me any words of advice?

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  • I've got a minor monitor issue, can anyone give me any words of advice?

    I'm in a trio, both the bassist and I sing.

    We use a Behringer powered mixer, which has one monitor mix available.

    Our voices are vastly different; mine is very mellow, his is very midrangey and cutting. I think I sing more from my chest and gut, he's a little more nasal. For example, if I take the mid control of his channel and turn it all the way down, his voice sounds a little like mine.

    This creates a problem. I need my voice LOUD through the monitors; sort of like a guitar amp - no mids, no cutting through the mix.

    I know there's not much I can do other than buy a new mixer, but how would you guys handle this? I've tried cutting him a little from the mon. mix, but he needs his voice VERY loud in order to keep on pitch. You can REALLY tell when his channel is too quiet in the monitors .

    This opens up mountains of feedback issues due to the huge amounts of volume necessary to satisfy us both, even with a FB destroyer and 15 band EQ.

    Maybe earplugs?

    -Andy
    www.blindside-photo.com

  • #2
    Originally posted by SoundtechSD
    I'm in a trio, both the bassist and I sing.

    We use a Behringer powered mixer, which has one monitor mix available.

    Our voices are vastly different; mine is very mellow, his is very midrangey and cutting. I think I sing more from my chest and gut, he's a little more nasal. For example, if I take the mid control of his channel and turn it all the way down, his voice sounds a little like mine.

    This creates a problem. I need my voice LOUD through the monitors; sort of like a guitar amp - no mids, no cutting through the mix.

    I know there's not much I can do other than buy a new mixer, but how would you guys handle this? I've tried cutting him a little from the mon. mix, but he needs his voice VERY loud in order to keep on pitch. You can REALLY tell when his channel is too quiet in the monitors .

    This opens up mountains of feedback issues due to the huge amounts of volume necessary to satisfy us both, even with a FB destroyer and 15 band EQ.

    Maybe earplugs?

    -Andy
    Still using that FB destroyer. I thought you were sending it back. Anyway,what are you running your monitors with? You can very easily kind of have two monitor mixes if you have a stereo amp and stereo EQ. I have just what you need if you are in a buying mood!
    tlbonehead@yahoo.com
    www.myspace.com/tbone_tommy
    -For Sale:
    -set of GFS Dream 90s- gold and black pearl- $40 shipped in the cont. US
    -(2) Celestion G12M-70 16 ohm guitar speakers in good condition $40 ea. + shipping.
    - Vox VT15 Valvetronix very clean - $85 + shipping
    - Hughes Kettner Edition Tube 20 (the early Voxy sounding one) Sounds & looks good. $250 + shipping. SOLD
    - Crate Palomino V8 - 10" Celestion - Very clean - on Ebay (sold)

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    • #3
      A feedback destroyer will be virtually useless in this situation!

      You need to either both practice your vocals to achieve a better blend, you need 2 monitor mixes, or need to concentrate more on listening to each others parts in the single monitor mix.
      -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Former product development engineer: Genz Benz, a KMC Music/FMIC/JAM Industries Company, continuing factory level product support and service for Genz Benz

      Currently product development engineer: Mesa Boogie

      Comment


      • #4
        Buy a couple of PSM200 IEM systems, and each of you have it the way you want.

        And toss the FB destroyer in the dumpster, you won't need it anymore either.

        Terry D.
        Telling Stories releases 2nd CD, see our WEBSITE! Please check out my GROUPIE STORY and Tales from the Road.

        Comment


        • #5
          Yeah, the feedback destroyer's definately a crutch for me, I should get rid of it. I wonder if I'm still within 45 days for MF.com....

          We'll be stuck with one monitor mix until I can get my current system paid off and another mixerpoweramp bought. I'm running a Behringer PMX2000, two monitors daisy-chained off of one side, two mains on the other.

          Right now, I'm broke and in debt.

          I noticed something else, too tonight at practice. He sings so loudly that his mic distorts. I'm almost positive it's his mic, (57) - since I've padded the input -20db, reduced his gain, and it's STILL distorting. I told him what's going on, and he agreed to pull back and quiet down, but I'm still nervous. Every time we get up on stage, the drummer hits a little louder, I end up turning up a little louder, then the bassist turns up louder and sings louder...and the gig's shot to heck in 30 seconds. It's just a matter of musical maturity, I guess, to be able to stop that domino effect, but we're not able to do that.

          I've found that he can hear himself adequately enough to keep in tune to some extent when I turn him down in the monitors, by listening to the FOH.

          IEMs would be the bees knees right now, but it's just not gonna happen until we scrape together some cash.

          -Andy

          PS - agedhorse, we've been setting up the monitors like you recommended to keep the sound from reflecting off our faces - and it works GREAT. Thanks for the tip!
          www.blindside-photo.com

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by SoundtechSD
            Yeah, the feedback destroyer's definately a crutch for me, I should get rid of it. I wonder if I'm still within 45 days for MF.com....

            We'll be stuck with one monitor mix until I can get my current system paid off and another mixerpoweramp bought. I'm running a Behringer PMX2000, two monitors daisy-chained off of one side, two mains on the other.

            Right now, I'm broke and in debt.

            I noticed something else, too tonight at practice. He sings so loudly that his mic distorts. I'm almost positive it's his mic, (57) - since I've padded the input -20db, reduced his gain, and it's STILL distorting. I told him what's going on, and he agreed to pull back and quiet down, but I'm still nervous. Every time we get up on stage, the drummer hits a little louder, I end up turning up a little louder, then the bassist turns up louder and sings louder...and the gig's shot to heck in 30 seconds. It's just a matter of musical maturity, I guess, to be able to stop that domino effect, but we're not able to do that.

            I've found that he can hear himself adequately enough to keep in tune to some extent when I turn him down in the monitors, by listening to the FOH.

            IEMs would be the bees knees right now, but it's just not gonna happen until we scrape together some cash.

            -Andy

            PS - agedhorse, we've been setting up the monitors like you recommended to keep the sound from reflecting off our faces - and it works GREAT. Thanks for the tip!
            I find it hard to believe that he is overdriving the mic itself,but it is possible. If you have a stereo EQ and stereo amp for monitors,you can "Y" out of your aux and be able to set the volume and the tone of two individual monitor cabs separately. A Peavey MAQ300 or 600 would be pretty handy for that,especially since the EQ's have built-in FLS also.
            tlbonehead@yahoo.com
            www.myspace.com/tbone_tommy
            -For Sale:
            -set of GFS Dream 90s- gold and black pearl- $40 shipped in the cont. US
            -(2) Celestion G12M-70 16 ohm guitar speakers in good condition $40 ea. + shipping.
            - Vox VT15 Valvetronix very clean - $85 + shipping
            - Hughes Kettner Edition Tube 20 (the early Voxy sounding one) Sounds & looks good. $250 + shipping. SOLD
            - Crate Palomino V8 - 10" Celestion - Very clean - on Ebay (sold)

            Comment


            • #7
              If you sing right on top of the 57, the air displacemet can distort the sound by interacting with the diaphram. Same for cupping the mic, or blocking the side vent passages.

              Could be a bad mic too

              Could be a Behringer

              I would suggest trying a different mic, or at least put a windscreen on the 57... your problems will probably disappear
              -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Former product development engineer: Genz Benz, a KMC Music/FMIC/JAM Industries Company, continuing factory level product support and service for Genz Benz

              Currently product development engineer: Mesa Boogie

              Comment


              • #8
                Semi-serious suggestion: open up an XLR cable and wire in an attenuator, like those plug in Shure things that pad the mike down. Tell him or not, it's up to you.

                Problem solved.

                Terry D.
                Telling Stories releases 2nd CD, see our WEBSITE! Please check out my GROUPIE STORY and Tales from the Road.

                Comment


                • #9
                  here's something that's so stupid it's actually creative!

                  buy two behringer mixers, the 1-XLR + 2-line dealies. like $59.99 new. used, you should get them for dirt cheap.

                  buy an XLR two-fer from mark or such - 1 FXLR > 2 MXLR.

                  split the aux send to the two mixers, and send his and your vocal mic to one mixer each. pan the aux sends hard left, and your mics panned center.

                  take the L out to your monitors/ears; R out to the board.

                  you've just accomplished a thru-split (and a dedicated monitor board!)

                  otherwise, get two more two-fers, one for each mic, and get the 2-xlr + x-line dealies. then you'll have a parallel split. a little more expensive.

                  these arent quite the best ideas, but hey! if it works, it stays!

                  AS
                  AS = Abhi Shivraj

                  Recently quotable quotes
                  I stumbled across this today, something people should keep in mind: Dunning-Kruger effect - Gregidon

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                  • #10
                    1 Monitor channel is plenty for a trio. It's a musician issue not a PA one. You need to practise playing/singing together as a group - listening to what you hear, picking out the parts and individually controlling your tone and volume to get the best blend.

                    -Dan

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I agree with Daniel. this is not an equipment issue. Your trio needs to work this out with technique (been there). It sounds like you are playing too loud for the vocals.

                      Drummers are the volume regulators. They need to play solid, but not too loud, so that vocals aren't heard clearly. When the drummer plays louder, the instruments go louder, and then the vocals are strained. I've played with a drummer so loud, i couldn't even talk for 3 days afterward. Everyone in the band was telling the drummer to restrain a bit, and he said he "couldn't". I never forgot that lesson! A new drummer fixed the problem.

                      The even bigger issue is your vocal blend. Surely, you guys can make this blend. Try it at lower volumes, with music quiet, to work it out, before playing at normal volume.

                      Also, the lead singer of the song should be louder, with the backup or harmony singer backing off some. This is done by physically backing off the mic and singing softer, rather than depending completely on the volume and tone of the equipment-it is only a tool- amplifying what you are singing. If the song(s) are complete 50-50 harmony, all the more reason to work it out at lower volumes, first.

                      If the vocal styles are THAT different, and you cannot get a good mix, it sounds like time for some ego checks, and if still can't do it, work with someone else with a voice that DOES blend well.


                      That's my 25 cents.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re, SM57 - We've got a windscreen on there - one of those that clamps on. Agedhorse - maybe have him pull back a little? What would fix the problem you described?

                        I agree - I'd rather learn how to blend and balance vocals than buy equipment to fix it.

                        The drummer IS setting the volume for us - he's VERY loud.

                        This is OT, but funny. I talked to him about him buying a plexiglas shield, and he laughed. "Biggest waste of money EVER! Why spend money to quiet down if you can just hit the drums softer?"

                        *Forehead slap*.

                        He's got some problems with volume.
                        www.blindside-photo.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The clamp-on "popper-stopper" windscreens will work ok, but are not very practacle to use live.
                          -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          Former product development engineer: Genz Benz, a KMC Music/FMIC/JAM Industries Company, continuing factory level product support and service for Genz Benz

                          Currently product development engineer: Mesa Boogie

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            What else is there for an SM57? A screen on a gooseneck?
                            www.blindside-photo.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by SoundtechSD
                              What else is there for an SM57? A screen on a gooseneck?
                              Better singing technique?
                              tlbonehead@yahoo.com
                              www.myspace.com/tbone_tommy
                              -For Sale:
                              -set of GFS Dream 90s- gold and black pearl- $40 shipped in the cont. US
                              -(2) Celestion G12M-70 16 ohm guitar speakers in good condition $40 ea. + shipping.
                              - Vox VT15 Valvetronix very clean - $85 + shipping
                              - Hughes Kettner Edition Tube 20 (the early Voxy sounding one) Sounds & looks good. $250 + shipping. SOLD
                              - Crate Palomino V8 - 10" Celestion - Very clean - on Ebay (sold)

                              Comment

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