Members bmf5150 Posted February 23, 2007 Members Share Posted February 23, 2007 im looking at the phonic max 500 power amp.how are phonic amps?are they transparent sounding?any info appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stunningbabe Posted February 23, 2007 Members Share Posted February 23, 2007 I have the Phonic MAR 6 amp. 600W at 4ohms. Built like a tank. A very good bargain for the money...true value for money. NEVER break down on me...not even once since 1999. It was actually my Dad's...and he passed it on to my husband (then boyfriend)...and now I use it for my shows. As i understand it, the better amp will be their XP2000 series. I've heard it before...and AB'd it with MAR 6. The XP2000 has more refined highs...sweeter if you will....and has a more pronounced mid lows. Not that the MAR 6 is bad. Not at all.It's a cheaper amp than the XP...so surely there is a difference.You get what you pay for..yes? The MAX series is not the amp that's meant for pros. It's a bit harsh in the mid range and lack the 'bottom'....and also sounds 'hollow'. Go for the XP series instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gruvjack Posted February 23, 2007 Members Share Posted February 23, 2007 There's a club across the street from my place that uses one (forgot the model number). The sound is a little gritty to my ears but that could be a result from anything in the signal chain (mixer, eq, etc). No issues since installation in 2002. V. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stunningbabe Posted February 23, 2007 Members Share Posted February 23, 2007 ...or the real prob could be the SOUNDMAN's poor and amateur sense of tweaking the system! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al Poulin Posted February 23, 2007 Members Share Posted February 23, 2007 As i understand it, the better amp will be their XP2000 series. I've heard it before...and AB'd it with MAR 6. The XP2000 has more refined highs...sweeter if you will....and has a more pronounced mid lows.Not that the MAR 6 is bad. Not at all.It's a cheaper amp than the XP...so surely there is a difference.You get what you pay for..yes?The MAX series is not the amp that's meant for pros. It's a bit harsh in the mid range and lack the 'bottom'....and also sounds 'hollow'.Go for the XP series instead. I've never heard any difference sound quality wise between any power amps I've ever owned or used (aside from the amount of fan noise). Unless an amp has hi/low pass filters engaged or some kind of high freq/low freq boost, there is no reason one amp should sound better than another. Except when driven to clipping and of course some switching power supply amps that do not push subs as well as standard ones. Other than that, I think most differences are imaginary or have to do with the test conditions or simply one amp having higher sensitivity than another and appearing slighly louder to the listener - who interprets this as better sounding. In a measured and well controlled blindfold listening test, I doubt such big differences would be heard. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 23, 2007 Members Share Posted February 23, 2007 I tend to agree with Al's comments. Double-blind testing reveals that many perceived differences are imaginary at best. This applies to many things beyond audio too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted February 23, 2007 Members Share Posted February 23, 2007 I tend to agree with Al's comments. Double-blind testing reveals that many perceived differences are imaginary at best. This applies to many things beyond audio too. +1 with what Al and Andy say... sound wise. I attended the infamous amp shoot-out in Berkeley CA a few years ago. The focus of the shoot-out was a very well done A-B listening test covering maybe 15 or so pairs of amps. To my recollection, the testing proved that it was extremely difficult to pin-point differences in the "sound" of amps. If there were differences, they were statistically insignificant. However, I did learn something... while personally packing every single amp supplied for the shoot-out... something on the order of maybe 40 amps or so and covering a wide spectrum of makes and models. I can tell you there's huge differences in quality of construction and accoutrements... to say nothing of the differences I saw in otherwise somewhat over-looked but important details like owner's manuals. FWIW: There were no Phonic amps at the shoot-out that I remember... but what was there seemed to be a representation the who's who of the well accepted and higher regarded amplifier makes and models (and one Phase Linear 400). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stunningbabe Posted February 23, 2007 Members Share Posted February 23, 2007 is it me...or am I the only odd one here who can hear the difference from one amp to another? My ears are pretty sensitive to music pitches and frequencies. Ok..let's not talk about pro audio amps. Let's talk about hi-fi amps. If there's no difference in sound quality...why is there such a drastic change in sound quality between hi-fi amps then?? Or is it that you mean that in pro audio...there's no audible difference in sound quality from pro audio amps? I have a Arcam Alpha hi-fi amp in my living room. My husband has a Audiolab hi-fi amp in our hall. We AB'd both the amps..and there IS a lot of difference between the two amps. The Arcam sounded smoother....richer vocals...more 'polite'...while the latter sounded more 'punch'....more mids...and more 'forward'. Why shouldn't a pro audio amp be any different in sound quality then? I'm not trying to take you guys up here....but stating that I indeed can tell the difference between amps...pro-audio or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted February 23, 2007 Members Share Posted February 23, 2007 I've never heard any difference sound quality wise between any power amps I've ever owned or used (aside from the amount of fan noise). Unless an amp has hi/low pass filters engaged or some kind of high freq/low freq boost, there is no reason one amp should sound better than another. Except when driven to clipping and of course some switching power supply amps that do not push subs as well as standard ones. Other than that, I think most differences are imaginary or have to do with the test conditions or simply one amp having higher sensitivity than another and appearing slighly louder to the listener - who interprets this as better sounding. In a measured and well controlled blindfold listening test, I doubt such big differences would be heard. Al I must agree. The differences sonicly between power amps for live use are negligable. The biggest and only important differences are durability and features (I'm not a fan of unneeded bells and whistles but a limiter built into the amp which is already calibrated to limit just before the amps voltage rail is reached can save you tons of hassle and blown drivers (the cost of one recone could be more than the price difference). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al Poulin Posted February 24, 2007 Members Share Posted February 24, 2007 Ok..let's not talk about pro audio amps. Let's talk about hi-fi amps.If there's no difference in sound quality...why is there such a drastic change in sound quality between hi-fi amps then?? Or is it that you mean that in pro audio...there's no audible difference in sound quality from pro audio amps?I have a Arcam Alpha hi-fi amp in my living room. My husband has a Audiolab hi-fi amp in our hall. We AB'd both the amps..and there IS a lot of difference between the two amps. The Arcam sounded smoother....richer vocals...more 'polite'...while the latter sounded more 'punch'....more mids...and more 'forward'.Why shouldn't a pro audio amp be any different in sound quality then? I'm not trying to take you guys up here....but stating that I indeed can tell the difference between amps...pro-audio or not. For your hi-fi amps, you did compare them using the same speakers etc... right? How about pre-amps? Do each of these amplifiers use a pre-amp designed to work with each particular amplifier? Any of these have a CD direct or simply Direct function that bypasses all of the pre-amps processing. If you can compare both amplifiers, CD direct, without any of the pre-amps processing, using same speakers etc... I would be surprised you could reliably identify which one is playing in a blind listening test. (all levels perfectly matched of course) If there are any differences, which is possible (I know some cheaper receivers do put out more total harmonic distortion than others or have better signal to noise ratio etc... - also i have seen low end receivers with a frequency response starting at 40hz rather than the standard 20hz in which case, you would hear less deep bass in a speaker that can reproduce it). Thing is, in live sound, there are probably such small differences too. But, most PA speakers are not made to be nearly as accurate as hi-fi speakers, so you would not hear such insignificant differences - especially in most pa settings. In a whisper quiet living room, with very expensive speakers, maybe but.... ??? Does 2000$ speaker wire sound better than 400$ speaker wire? To the one who bought the 2000$ speaker wire, damn right! Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stunningbabe Posted February 24, 2007 Members Share Posted February 24, 2007 Hi Al. Yes...I AB'd them as you mentioned. Both amps were compared using the same cables, CD player, song and speakers. We used the direct function at all times on both amps. The difference is not a little. It's quite apparent. The point I'm making here is there is a difference in sound quality from different power amps. If there's no sound quality difference...then a Behringer power amp is as good as Crown Macrotech amp then? let's not talk about parts and reliability..but solely on SOUND QUALITY. Since you guys said there's no difference in sound quality, then any behringer amp will sound the SAME as an expensive Crown amp. Right? HOwever, if you guys think I'm wrong, then I'll move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al Poulin Posted February 24, 2007 Members Share Posted February 24, 2007 If there's no sound quality difference...then a Behringer power amp is as good as Crown Macrotech amp then? let's not talk about parts and reliability..but solely on SOUND QUALITY. Since you guys said there's no difference in sound quality, then any behringer amp will sound the SAME as an expensive Crown amp. Right?. At regular listening levels, yes the Behringer will sound basically the same as the Crown Macrotech or Mackie M1400 or ????.unless there is something really wrong in it's design. Amps are designed to amplify a signal, not to color/modify the sound - unless low/high pass filters or Low/high boosts are activated by the user. At lower impedances however, driving difficult loads, there will probably be a sound difference between the Behringer and the Macrotech. And after ten years of driving such difficult loads at low impedances, I'll wager one amp will be dead quiet while the other will be still performing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al Poulin Posted February 24, 2007 Members Share Posted February 24, 2007 From Yorkville's audio guide : ''Over the years manufacturers have honed the design of PA power amplifiers to a fine edge. As a result, it's really hard to find a modern amp which doesn't live up its specifications. In reality, there isn't much wrong for a power amp to do. They have virtually flat frequency response so differences in sound are often more imaginary than real, although some of the ultra-compact amps with "switching" power supplies may not be quite as good at driving subwoofers as the heavier ones with conventional power supplies. Aside from that, however, the only continuing difference between power amplifiers is reliability and even that tends to be less of a variable as designs improve. We specify "PA" power amplifiers for a reason however; home stereo power amps are perhaps not ideal candidates for the rigors of life in the pro audio world.'' Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 24, 2007 Members Share Posted February 24, 2007 Unless it's a dreadful design (yes there are a few of these still around, mostly in the DJ market), there will be virtually no audible difference between power amplifiers under normal operating conditions. Where audible differences do occur is under high power 2 ohm loads, with the various filter options selected, at the clip and limit point of the amp etc. This is where the pro amps shine. Reliability is another BIG difference, thermal headroom, plus the option of high performance light weight units. If there was really a difference in the sound of the amps (of course you normalized the gains right???) then one of the amps is either a horrible design or something is wrong with it and it needs to be serviced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stunningbabe Posted February 24, 2007 Members Share Posted February 24, 2007 YOu do know I respect you guys...with your years and years of experience. This is something that I just can't seem to comprehend : A Behringer amp sounds as good as a top notch Crown amp at regular listening volume. Hmm...perhaps I'm missing something here: Assuming that I'm driving a 400W pair of passive speakers at 4 ohms all the time for my shows together with a self-powered sub. That will mean a humble made in China Behringer power amp will sound as good as an amp that costs 10 times more? That's what you guys are saying, yes? A Behringer amp sounds just like an expensive Crown amp at regular volume? Again...I'm not gonna talk about 2ohms, reliability, etc...all those things. I'm talking about SOUND QUALITY..which is the paramount important thing for me. I just want to be proven that I'm wrong and that you guys are right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bigmike216 Posted February 24, 2007 Members Share Posted February 24, 2007 Your amps need to be putting out exactly the same voltage for a proper A/B test. If not, the one that is louder will sound better. Always. Also, the A/B test needs to be done blind.. someone else switching the amps. I bet it would be impossible to tell which amp is which, beyond probability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted February 24, 2007 Members Share Posted February 24, 2007 I just want to be proven Here's some of the amps that were tested at the shootout. I couldn't get them all in one picture: Here's some of the folks involved with the shootout: Here's the info: http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/102841/9721/?src%20h=amplifier+shootout#msg_102841 More to the point, here's the results from the ABX listening tests: http://www.live-audio.com/messages/98632.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al Poulin Posted February 24, 2007 Members Share Posted February 24, 2007 YOu do know I respect you guys...with your years and years of experience. This is something that I just can't seem to comprehend : A Behringer amp sounds as good as a top notch Crown amp at regular listening volume. Hmm...perhaps I'm missing something here:Assuming that I'm driving a 400W pair of passive speakers at 4 ohms all the time for my shows together with a self-powered sub.That will mean a humble made in China Behringer power amp will sound as good as an amp that costs 10 times more? That's what you guys are saying, yes? A Behringer amp sounds just like an expensive Crown amp at regular volume?Again...I'm not gonna talk about 2ohms, reliability, etc...all those things. I'm talking about SOUND QUALITY..which is the paramount important thing for me. I just want to be proven that I'm wrong and that you guys are right. Your speakers make the biggest difference in the sound of your system. However, your mixer and more importantly what plugs into your mixer will also have a huge impact on the quality of the sound. If what you put in is crap, what your system will put out will be an amplification of crap, regardless of what type of power amp used. If you put in quality music, however, and use an expensive power amp, the amp will not make what you are putting in sound better or modify it, since that is not what it's designed for. There is plenty of sound processing gear to do that - equalizers, compressors, enhancers etc... In other words, an amp has minimal effect over the quality of the sound that comes out of a given system. It's job is to amplify the signal it is fed. That's it. Unless, as previously mentionned, you engage some type of filtering or frequncy boost. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 24, 2007 Members Share Posted February 24, 2007 Yes, they will sound almost identical. If you don't care about reliability, then that's your problem. Frankly, reliability is so much farther up my list compared to any possible sound difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted February 24, 2007 Members Share Posted February 24, 2007 Frankly, reliability is so much farther up my list compared to any possible sound difference. As I remember, out of the 50 or so various makes and models of amplifiers at the amp shoot-out, there were a few new (I believe) amps that failed right out of the box, or had some-sort of significant problems. I believe these were generally the more budget priced amps. While repacking the amps, what did become very obvious to me was the stark difference in the robust qualities. IMO, there were some amplifiers who's only "professional" virtue seemed to be the fact they were equipped with rack ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members death metal jim Posted February 24, 2007 Members Share Posted February 24, 2007 I can hear the difference in amps. Years ago I hooked up my Crown power tech 2 to one bass cab and my Audio Centron 400 to the other bass cab (both cabs are the same) and at the same volume the Crown sounded better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dark Ice Posted February 24, 2007 Members Share Posted February 24, 2007 All the listening tests that have been described so far (and every other I've come across) have had the amp well within its normal operating range. I'd like to see a listening test under circumstances where the amps driven hard into near clip (or maybe with a slight bit of clip into a subwoofer...sure I read somewhere that distortion on the sub frequencies is supposed to sound 'pleasent') and with low loads to see how they sound under pressure. I'm sure we'd see some interesting results! Of course you couldn't voltage-match the output without some kind of dummy load that might affect the amps performance... Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 24, 2007 Members Share Posted February 24, 2007 You would have to compare like powered amps, or reasonably like powered. Under this kind of test, especially at 2 ohms, there will most definately be differences and this is exactly where the budget amps don't hold up well. The Audio Centron at 4 ohms should be a pretty decent performer. The circuit topology is typical of a wide class of amps, including some of the Crest products. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted February 25, 2007 Members Share Posted February 25, 2007 I'd like to see a listening test under circumstances where the amps driven hard into near clip (or maybe with a slight bit of clip into a subwoofer...sure I read somewhere that distortion on the sub frequencies is supposed to sound 'pleasent') and with low loads to see how they sound under pressure.I'm sure we'd see some interesting results! Of course you couldn't voltage-match the output without some kind of dummy load that might affect the amps performance...Steve. Here's some data on that sort of testing: http://www.roaddog.com/bink/data/AmpShootout_20-20k_results.xls One somewhat informal but effective method I'm aware of is which doesn't take a lot of fancy test gear is to take a CD player, a board, a couple of amps, and a row of fullrange speaker cabinets. Plug the CD player into the board so you can pan two outputs to the amps. Leave the amps in stereo mode, but just plug into the left input of each amp. Level up the sensitivity on both amp so they're operating evenly, then crank it till the onset of clip... then back it off a touch. Finally, start parallel chaining speakers... then watch and listen, and feel the amps. Pan back and forth to hear the difference. It's gonna be loud, so pick a day when the neighbors are gone, and wear some good ear protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stunningbabe Posted February 25, 2007 Members Share Posted February 25, 2007 Mike....whixh one is you in the photos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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