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PA upgrade advice

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  • #2

    Hey Louis,

    This is one of the best laid out and explained posts I have had the pleasure to respond to

    In reading between the lines of your requirements, what I am hearing is that you would like to simplify your rig as well as improve it.  With the budget you stated, this is completely within your budget.

    Mixer:

    Studio Live 16.0.2 ($1200.00).  This mixer has 12 mic inputs and plenty of other inputs along with 4 aux outs in addition to a seperate monitor output (and a seperate mono output with a seperate gain).  From here: http://www.presonus.com/uploads/products/1373/downloads/StudioLive1602_OwnersManual_EN5.pdf

    Going digital will give you lots of flexibility that you didn't have before like built in compressors and gates for each channel, and recording capabilities straight to a computer from the mixer.  You can also see all inputs in real time through the full meter bridge (every channel has a VU meter like the one on your main for your ZED.  This is a really nice mixer and should completely fix your mixer issues and then some.

    Speakers:

    I would keep those RCF310a's.  Those are nice powered speakers and as you stated, work great for monitors and small gigs.  

    I would recommend a pair of Yamaha DXR15's.  You can these for $700.00 each if you look around (ebay currently has this price with free shipping).  I know this puts you $200.00 over your stated budget, but it really seems like the best possible combination I could think of for your setup.  You can audition both this mixer and these speakers at pretty much any GC in the US.

     

    With Greater Knowledge Comes Greater Understanding

    Comment


    • Louis Schwartz
      Louis Schwartz commented
      Editing a comment

      OneEng wrote:

      Hey Louis,

      This is one of the best laid out and explained posts I have had the pleasure to respond to

      In reading between the lines of your requirements, what I am hearing is that you would like to simplify your rig as well as improve it.  With the budget you stated, this is completely within your budget.

      Mixer:

      Studio Live 16.0.2 ($1200.00).  This mixer has 12 mic inputs and plenty of other inputs along with 4 aux outs in addition to a seperate monitor output (and a seperate mono output with a seperate gain).  From here: http://www.presonus.com/uploads/products/1373/downloads/StudioLive1602_OwnersManual_EN5.pdf

      Going digital will give you lots of flexibility that you didn't have before like built in compressors and gates for each channel, and recording capabilities straight to a computer from the mixer.  You can also see all inputs in real time through the full meter bridge (every channel has a VU meter like the one on your main for your ZED.  This is a really nice mixer and should completely fix your mixer issues and then some.

      Speakers:

      I would keep those RCF310a's.  Those are nice powered speakers and as you stated, work great for monitors and small gigs.  

      I would recommend a pair of Yamaha DXR15's.  You can these for $700.00 each if you look around (ebay currently has this price with free shipping).  I know this puts you $200.00 over your stated budget, but it really seems like the best possible combination I could think of for your setup.  You can audition both this mixer and these speakers at pretty much any GC in the US.

       



      Thanks--and thanks so much for taking the time to read the post.  You're right about my wanting to streamline and improve the sound. I hadn't thought at all about making the jump to a digital mixer!  It's a slightly daunting thought, given that I'm still working on mastering my analogue boards (I've got the basics down--and I don't seem to be driving anyone out of the room--but mastery is of course another story).  But it's something worth thinking about, given that the Presonus boards is actually comparable in size and weight to some of the others I've been considering (it's smaller and a little lighter, though taller, than the ZED R16FX, for example, and very close in size to the MFXi8--although that board, according to the Soundcraft site is only 8.8 lbs! is that accurate???).  Anyway, food for thought.

      The DXR's are certainly on my shortlist for consideration when it comes time to think about the speaker issue, although I was thinking about the 12", rather than the 15" version.  The speaker choice is, I think, going to come down whether it turns out that it's best for me to go with a pai powered 2 way that will give me enough low end to accommodate the bass in the PA, given that we're not taking about very large venues or rock and roll volume, or whether I should think in terms of one or two compact subs.

      Louis


  • #3

    Louis,

    My first advice would be to post links to the products you're talking about, directly in your thread. It makes it much easier for people to see what you're talking about. That said, I'm pretty familiar with many of the products you've mentioned.

    A simple response regarding which mixer you should choose, in my opinion anyway, requires a broader view of how you see you're future system evolution. As I understand your post, you're presently torn between "portability" vs "capability". In your case, I see "capability" as being the number of mono/XLR inputs and aux-sends.

    If you're comfortable with 2 pre-fade aux-sends, then the Soundcraft MFXi-8 or 12 would probably be my choice. The ZED16-FX is physically larger I believe (didn't look), and  has 2 pre-fade aux-sends. EQ capability is similar (3-band/swept mid), but has fewer XLR in's.

    Once you start looking at consoles the size of a ZED16FX  or MFXi-12, you really want to include the A&H MixWiz3 16;2 in your evaluation. The height of that board makes it kess portable, but you get direct outs, individual-channel  phantom power, line-input pads, 4-band EQ(dual swept mids). It's roughly 4 lbs heavier than the ZED 16FX, but is roughly twice the height. The input pod is rotatable, so you have flexibility in set-up.

    The small format Soundcrafts are excellent sounding boards, with Lexicon FX. I have thre of them, a Compact-4, a Note-Pad 124FX, and an EFX-8. The EFX-8 in particular, is just a great lil' board for those "travel light" gigs. Mine's going on 6 years old, with never an issue. I transport it in a Gator G-Mix 15"x15" padded shoulder-bag. EQ sounds quite "musical", and graduates very nicely and predictably,,, much better than the NotePad for example,.

    If your future needs include close-micing a drum-kit, then you definitely want to consider a 12-channel minimum. I get by with my EFX-8 for band practice, putting three mics on the drum-kit (kick, snare, rack-toms) In large rooms, that's simply not enough. (floor-toms and o'heads)

    It all boils down to how far down the road you want to look, and what you eventually want to do with the board. (recording/direct-outs, etc).

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro;

    (I came, I saw, I stuck around)

    Comment


    • Louis Schwartz
      Louis Schwartz commented
      Editing a comment

      Bobby1Note wrote:

      Louis,

      My first advice would be to post links to the products you're talking about, directly in your thread. It makes it much easier for people to see what you're talking about. That said, I'm pretty familiar with many of the products you've mentioned.

      A simple response regarding which mixer you should choose, in my opinion anyway, requires a broader view of how you see you're future system evolution. As I understand your post, you're presently torn between "portability" vs "capability". In your case, I see "capability" as being the number of mono/XLR inputs and aux-sends.

      If you're comfortable with 2 pre-fade aux-sends, then the Soundcraft MFXi-8 or 12 would probably be my choice. The ZED16-FX is physically larger I believe (didn't look), and  has 2 pre-fade aux-sends. EQ capability is similar (3-band/swept mid), but has fewer XLR in's.

      Once you start looking at consoles the size of a ZED16FX  or MFXi-12, you really want to include the A&H MixWiz3 16;2 in your evaluation. The height of that board makes it kess portable, but you get direct outs, individual-channel  phantom power, line-input pads, 4-band EQ(dual swept mids). It's roughly 4 lbs heavier than the ZED 16FX, but is roughly twice the height. The input pod is rotatable, so you have flexibility in set-up.

      The small format Soundcrafts are excellent sounding boards, with Lexicon FX. I have thre of them, a Compact-4, a Note-Pad 124FX, and an EFX-8. The EFX-8 in particular, is just a great lil' board for those "travel light" gigs. Mine's going on 6 years old, with never an issue. I transport it in a Gator G-Mix 15"x15" padded shoulder-bag. EQ sounds quite "musical", and graduates very nicely and predictably,,, much better than the NotePad for example,.

      If your future needs include close-micing a drum-kit, then you definitely want to consider a 12-channel minimum. I get by with my EFX-8 for band practice, putting three mics on the drum-kit (kick, snare, rack-toms) In large rooms, that's simply not enough. (floor-toms and o'heads)

      It all boils down to how far down the road you want to look, and what you eventually want to do with the board. (recording/direct-outs, etc).


       

      Thanks, Bobby!  I added links to my post (good tip).

      You're right about the "portability" vs "capability" issue, but it's also a matter of having a mixer that I can use in cramped conditions on stage.  We mostly play in local coffeehouse that are friendly to "ethnic" or "world" music, and our audiences are a mix of people with an ethnic connection to the music we play and people on the local arts and folk or belly dance/music scene.  It's amazing how small some of these spaces are, and they're not usually set up with music in mind.  The few that are larger and set up for music--like one we played last night, have their own PAs, so the issue goes away.  It's also less of a problem for the community spaces we play, where there's usually ample room on a stage of some kind to set up with breathing room. 

      Unforunately, it seems, the needs of the band fall right in the crack between what the smaller format mixers provide (these seem to be designed with solo and duo or trio acoustic ensembles in mind) and what the next stage up provide (these seem designed with rock bands in mind).  We're never going to need to mic a kit, but we need more inputs than your average small acoustic band.  A ZED R16FX or MixWiz, and even the MFXi12 or the StudioLive that OneEng recommended feel bigger and more unweildy even for the larger spaces we get to play, although it's clear that I'll have to go in that direction if I really want to put something together that will do better in those spaces than the sort of hybrid Yorkville/RCF/A&H PA I'm now using.

      Maybe I just need to think in terms of 2 mixers--at least eventually.  One appropriate to the smaller version of a flexible combination of components and for smaller spaces and stages, and a larger one for the "maximal" combination and the larger spaces ("large" in this context being relative, of course).  Luckily, I don't have to rush into anything and I can do this step by step.

      Louis

       


  • #4

    Louis, it sounds like you might be in Canada - if so, there are advantages to staying Yorkville for the most part.

    IMO if you're staying Yorkville the next noticeable quality jump above the YX15's is quite large price and weight wise. As a for instance, I recently did a side by side (at an elementary school) with the YX15's and my e210's (one of my fav announcement speakers). At a third of the price the YX15's held their own.  No they aren't as good but they're also a third of the price and still get the job done. 

    I might be tempted to trade in the YX15's, pick up a used/new pair of YX15P's and then go with one of your Soundcraft choices.  I've placed three Soundcraft E_ _ series in schools - so far so good.  I know the early models  had some sort of connector problem, But I think it's been addressed.  As well, assuming you buy from L&M you can get an extended warranty for two or three years.  By that time you might be ready for "the next step". 

    So then you've got your very nice RCF's for smaller gigs and your YX15P's for larger gigs. Again if you want to spend more money on the NX55P's fine but you won't get much (if any) real performance (notice I mean real world performance not quality of sound). The NX55P's soound better, I just found they don't "perform" better. Again, if you're in Canada you can rent before you buy.

    One factor to consider is that you've been used to having a built in EQ.  You might need to have an external one unless you've been running flat. Along those lines you could maybe find a used or discounted Yorkville MC12D.  So far, they've been a bit of an oddity and I don't think Yorkville has sold many - could be an opportunity for a deal.  http://www.long-mcquade.com/products/6265/Pro_Audio_Recording/Mixers/Yorkville_Sound/MC12D_12-Channel_Professional_Mixing_Desk.htm

    And finally yes, do get a mixerwith the channel HPF - it's worth it.  I tried a Soundcraft E.... without and switched to the other model that had them.

     

    Comment


    • Louis Schwartz
      Louis Schwartz commented
      Editing a comment

      Shaster wrote:

      Louis, it sounds like you might be in Canada - if so, there are advantages to staying Yorkville for the most part.

      IMO if you're staying Yorkville the next noticeable quality jump above the YX15's is quite large price and weight wise. As a for instance, I recently did a side by side (at an elementary school) with the YX15's and my e210's (one of my fav announcement speakers). At a third of the price the YX15's held their own.  No they aren't as good but they're also a third of the price and still get the job done. 

      I might be tempted to trade in the YX15's, pick up a used/new pair of YX15P's and then go with one of your Soundcraft choices.  I've placed three Soundcraft E_ _ series in schools - so far so good.  I know the early models  had some sort of connector problem, But I think it's been addressed.  As well, assuming you buy from L&M you can get an extended warranty for two or three years.  By that time you might be ready for "the next step". 

      So then you've got your very nice RCF's for smaller gigs and your YX15P's for larger gigs. Again if you want to spend more money on the NX55P's fine but you won't get much (if any) real performance (notice I mean real world performance not quality of sound). The NX55P's soound better, I just found they don't "perform" better. Again, if you're in Canada you can rent before you buy.

      One factor to consider is that you've been used to having a built in EQ.  You might need to have an external one unless you've been running flat. Along those lines you could maybe find a used or discounted Yorkville MC12D.  So far, they've been a bit of an oddity and I don't think Yorkville has sold many - could be an opportunity for a deal.  http://www.long-mcquade.com/products/6265/Pro_Audio_Recording/Mixers/Yorkville_Sound/MC12D_12-Channel_Professional_Mixing_Desk.htm

      And finally yes, do get a mixerwith the channel HPF - it's worth it.  I tried a Soundcraft E.... without and switched to the other model that had them.

       




       


      I'm actually in Richmond, VA, down in the states.  I bought the Yorkville system initally because I got a good price on it used from a local small sound provider who rents and sells Yorkville equipment.  I've had no complaints about it.  It was a decent tool for me at the time. Very user friendly and easy enough for someone who knew nothing to get a decent sound.  Working with the ZED and the RCF 310a's showed me what I could get from equipment still in my financial reach, but capable of a more refined sound.  I run the ZED pretty much flat except for the acoustic guitar channel.  They sound great.  And I've been surprised at how close the are to the 312a I have.  One of the reasons I haven't yet gotten a second 312a.

      Louis   
       


  • #5

    Have you ever tried some in-ear monitors?

     IMO reducing stage volume is the #1 path to better sound and less feedback in tight/noises venues.

    Subs will take much of the pounding you send to the mains and allow you use smaller ones. 

     

    <div class="signaturecontainer">The wheel is an extension of the foot</div>

    Comment


    • #6

      OK, just to make sure I have the general tenor of the advice straight:

      If I were to replace the Yorkville set up with a modular, scalable powered speaker set up, I would need an analogue or digital board of my choice with the inputs I need and at least 2 auxes, plus at least four more RCF 310a's (since I've already got two and I like them).  This would give me a pair of 310a's for FOH, a pair to use as wedges, and a pair as back fills.  In other words, a better-sounding, lighter, more scalable version of my present "big" PA.  I assume that this set up would cover any gig that my present set up now covers and do a better job.  With an analogue board and selling the Yorkville equipment and my 312a, that should all be affordable for me (the StudioLive might be a little out of reach, but I will look into it).

      I think I understand the trade-offs that come with the various boards pretty well, and it does look like I'm going to need to commit to something a little bigger than will be comfortable to use at the smaller gigs (and that means either coping with that or also buying another smaller board at some point).

      The following question remains:  this modular 310a set up will be fine, I think, for the gigs where having the bass player play through a combo will work (and that's so far most of our gigs), so my question is, what would be the next step in scaling-up this system? I assume that I can't really expect the 310a's to carry the bass very well.  Moving one of the pairs of 310a's from monitoring to FOH (or adding another pair) will give me some more SPL and coverage, but that won't change the bass situation, so I assume I'd need to think about buying or renting a small sub or two. The right sub under the 310a's for FOH would, I assume, significantly expand the reach of the PA and what it can handle in terms of bass (more so than going with bigger, more bass-capable boxes for the modular approach all around or even with bigger boxes just for FOH). 

      Is this right?  My thinking is that it does make more sense to add a sub (or subs) if needed (and, by rental, AS needed) than it does to run something bigger and heavier all around, or a pair of speakers for FOH that are not a match for my other speakers just so they can act as a stop-gap measure from time to time. 

      Again, just trying to make sure I'm thinking this through correctly.  Thanks again for everyone's time!

      Louis

      https://soundcloud.com/lschwart/sets/best-tracks

      https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/My...06839039360158

      http://www.amazon.com/Milton-Materna...8782889&sr=1-1

      http://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Comp...+paradise+lost

      Comment


      • Bobby1Note
        Bobby1Note commented
        Editing a comment

        Louis,

        How are you transporting your gear now? (vehicle?). If you're having to throw everything in the car,  you're options are kinda limited. I bought a van a few years ago, and it just sat there, so I got rid of it. For the number of times I needed the extra capacity, it was more economical to simply rent a van for the day. When I use my car, I can put a pair of LS720P subs on the back-seat, one NX55P on the front passenger seat, and one in the trunk, between the wheel-wells. That leaves room in the trunk for a couple of acoustic guitars. I rarely if ever, bring the subs to the acoustic gigs.

        How big are the rooms you're playing? (on average/crowd size)

        I dunno Louis,,,, seems to me that if I was in your shoes, I'd keep it within the originally stated budget of $1200, and go with the MFXi-12 ($599) and add a second RCF 312a ($549./Amazon.com) Later, I'd think about adding a high-quality compact sub like the Yorkville LS720P.

        If you're going to spend $2400, then I'd be looking at the SL16;4.2, (not the 16;0,2), and a second RCF312a. For now, let the bass-player get his own amp to carry the room.

        For the same money (or close) you could also look at a MixWiz3 16;2, a second RCF312a, and one LS720P.


      • OneEng
        OneEng commented
        Editing a comment

        Louis Schwartz wrote:

        OK, just to make sure I have the general tenor of the advice straight:

        If I were to replace the Yorkville set up with a modular, scalable powered speaker set up, I would need an analogue or digital board of my choice with the inputs I need and at least 2 auxes, plus at least four more RCF 310a's (since I've already got two and I like them).  This would give me a pair of 310a's for FOH, a pair to use as wedges, and a pair as back fills.  In other words, a better-sounding, lighter, more scalable version of my present "big" PA.  I assume that this set up would cover any gig that my present set up now covers and do a better job.  With an analogue board and selling the Yorkville equipment and my 312a, that should all be affordable for me (the StudioLive might be a little out of reach, but I will look into it).

        I think I understand the trade-offs that come with the various boards pretty well, and it does look like I'm going to need to commit to something a little bigger than will be comfortable to use at the smaller gigs (and that means either coping with that or also buying another smaller board at some point).

        The following question remains:  this modular 310a set up will be fine, I think, for the gigs where having the bass player play through a combo will work (and that's so far most of our gigs), so my question is, what would be the next step in scaling-up this system? I assume that I can't really expect the 310a's to carry the bass very well.  Moving one of the pairs of 310a's from monitoring to FOH (or adding another pair) will give me some more SPL and coverage, but that won't change the bass situation, so I assume I'd need to think about buying or renting a small sub or two. The right sub under the 310a's for FOH would, I assume, significantly expand the reach of the PA and what it can handle in terms of bass (more so than going with bigger, more bass-capable boxes for the modular approach all around or even with bigger boxes just for FOH). 

        Is this right?  My thinking is that it does make more sense to add a sub (or subs) if needed (and, by rental, AS needed) than it does to run something bigger and heavier all around, or a pair of speakers for FOH that are not a match for my other speakers just so they can act as a stop-gap measure from time to time. 

        Again, just trying to make sure I'm thinking this through correctly.  Thanks again for everyone's time!

        Louis


        Where the StudioLive 16.0.2 becomes a bargain is once you start putting more things into the stand alone mixer.... like:

        1. Compressors
        2. Gates
        3. Graphic EQ (mains only)
        4. Recording interface

        If you get a $600.00 MFXi-12 and add a GEQ and a compressor/gate, you will be at or above the price of the 16.0.2 and it will be a much larger and complicated rig.

        .... However, if you don't know what a compressor or a gate is used for, and you don't mind the additional 4" of width .... and you need to save the $$, the MFXi mixers are quite good.

        As for the speakers, you are correct.  There is no way the 310a's can handle having bass put through them (or keys for that matter).  There is simply nothing on the bottom in these speakers to handle these frequencies.  Sadly, the 312a's aren't that much better at handling bottom.  Don't get me wrong here.  I really like the RCF312a's.  They are a fantastic sounding speaker.... but if you need any bottom, they just aren't designed for that.

        Your "big" PA has a pair of 15" mains IIRC.  You can't add enough 310's to your setup to ever get the bottom of any decent 15" main.  It will dissapoint you if you are used to using 15's.... but then you must know this already if you have both to test with.

        If you need any bottom end at all AND you wish to stick with 12" speakers, the only speaker I would recommend is the Yorkville NX55p.  This rig will work well until they run out of gas, but should cover 100 people.

        If you DON'T want to have subs AND you want good bottom end, then the DXR15's are incredible.  These will easily handle keys, bass and music playback with authority.

        If you are OK with a rig that will not have much bottom to speak of (for now), I would just buy another RCF312a and use the 310's for monitors.  When you have more money, buy a sub or two.  Keep in mind that most subs are not small.  The ZXA1-SUB is pretty small, but I haven't heard it.  The LS/NX720p is a good 15" sub, but it isn't tiny.  See the specs here: http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=29&cat=22&id=365

        Good luck!  Let us know what you end up with and how it sounds!


    • #7

      A lot to think about.

      I guess the most immeditate question, aside from which mixer to buy, is whether to stay with the 310a's all around, as Andy suggests, with the idea of eventually adding a small sub or two for those occasional larger gigs where being able to put the bass through the PA would be an advantage, or to invest in a pair of larger powered speakers like the DXR15 or the NX55p for FOH, to cover those occasional "bass through the PA" gigs.  The 312a is a terrific speaker, but I've discovered that it doesn't sound all that different from the 310a.  A little more bottom, but not as much as you'd think (or hope).  Certainly not enough to justify the significant difference in size and weight.  It has been a pleasure transporting the 310a's after a few years of lugging around the YX15's and the 312a (neither of those are particularly heavy in the big picture, but both are significantly bigger and heavy than the little 310a's, and mostly I don't need the bottom the YX15s can provide).

      For the majority of our gigs, the 310a's alone are more than adequate (we're talking small coffeehouses and audiences of 20-50).  These rooms are sometimes noisy and oddly shaped, but so far one or a pair of the 310a's for vocals, acoustic guitars, and accordion, along with combo amps for the electric guitar and bass (with drums and clarinets going naked) has worked just fine.  The larger rooms we play--when they don't have their own PA's--are community and synagogue "all purpose" type social halls, often with a stage, and anywhere from 50 to a couple of hundred people, and again the 310a's (or the YX15s) have covered those reasonably well, with mics added for the electric guitar amp, the clarinet, and a condenser to pick up the sound coming off the heads of the darbukkas (the lower end of those drums, which comes out of the bottom, carries well enough on its own).  And we still can usually have the bass go through a combo. 

      I'm glad to know that the EV ZXA1-sub is a viable option for us (thanks Wynn!), if we want to go in the direction of keeping with the 310a's.  What are the other options in that power and weight class?  Anyone had any experience yet with the Mackie DLM12s? I think the Yorkville LS720p is overkill for out purposes, but what about the LS200P or the NX200S? These are only about 55 lbs and smaller. 

      And is the DXR15--if I went in that direction--going to be a good FOH choice for me, it's bass capablity aside?  I have regretted at times not getting YX12's instead of the YX15's.

      Thanks again for everyone's time!

      Louis

       

      https://soundcloud.com/lschwart/sets/best-tracks

      https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/My...06839039360158

      http://www.amazon.com/Milton-Materna...8782889&sr=1-1

      http://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Comp...+paradise+lost

      Comment


      • RoadRanger
        RoadRanger commented
        Editing a comment

        I've covered 1000 people outdoors with a pair of 310A's over my pair of big 18" folded horn subs (NOT recommended LOL). They're pretty damn loud and sound fine even deep in the red.


      • basschaplain
        basschaplain commented
        Editing a comment

        "For the majority of our gigs, the 310a's alone are more than adequate...has worked just fine."

        Seems like you've already answered your question, about speakers especially since you currently have two.

         


      • OneEng
        OneEng commented
        Editing a comment

        Louis Schwartz wrote:

        A lot to think about.

        I guess the most immeditate question, aside from which mixer to buy, is whether to stay with the 310a's all around, as Andy suggests, with the idea of eventually adding a small sub or two for those occasional larger gigs where being able to put the bass through the PA would be an advantage, or to invest in a pair of larger powered speakers like the DXR15 or the NX55p for FOH, to cover those occasional "bass through the PA" gigs.  The 312a is a terrific speaker, but I've discovered that it doesn't sound all that different from the 310a.  A little more bottom, but not as much as you'd think (or hope).  Certainly not enough to justify the significant difference in size and weight.  It has been a pleasure transporting the 310a's after a few years of lugging around the YX15's and the 312a (neither of those are particularly heavy in the big picture, but both are significantly bigger and heavy than the little 310a's, and mostly I don't need the bottom the YX15s can provide).

        For the majority of our gigs, the 310a's alone are more than adequate (we're talking small coffeehouses and audiences of 20-50).  These rooms are sometimes noisy and oddly shaped, but so far one or a pair of the 310a's for vocals, acoustic guitars, and accordion, along with combo amps for the electric guitar and bass (with drums and clarinets going naked) has worked just fine.  The larger rooms we play--when they don't have their own PA's--are community and synagogue "all purpose" type social halls, often with a stage, and anywhere from 50 to a couple of hundred people, and again the 310a's (or the YX15s) have covered those reasonably well, with mics added for the electric guitar amp, the clarinet, and a condenser to pick up the sound coming off the heads of the darbukkas (the lower end of those drums, which comes out of the bottom, carries well enough on its own).  And we still can usually have the bass go through a combo. 

        I'm glad to know that the EV ZXA1-sub is a viable option for us (thanks Wynn!), if we want to go in the direction of keeping with the 310a's.  What are the other options in that power and weight class?  Anyone had any experience yet with the Mackie DLM12s? I think the Yorkville LS720p is overkill for out purposes, but what about the LS200P or the NX200S? These are only about 55 lbs and smaller. 

        And is the DXR15--if I went in that direction--going to be a good FOH choice for me, it's bass capablity aside?  I have regretted at times not getting YX12's instead of the YX15's.

        Thanks again for everyone's time!

        Louis

         


        Ok, with this new information .....

        Get a pair of ZXA1-Sub's and the soundcraft mixer.  Your existing RCF310's will cover way more people if the subs are getting all the bottom.

        Yes, the DXR15 is a good FOH speaker and would likely be all the speaker you would need without any subwoofer; however, this is not as scaleable solution as the 310's over the small subs which would be smaller.  I would keep the 312 for monitor duty.


    • #8
      I'm so thankful when I bought my PA in 2004 I got hooked up with Unity15's over LS800p's
      NO SIGNATURE FOR YOU!!

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      • #9

        Thanks guys!  This is all starting to come into some focus for me.  It looks like, for now, I'm going to go ahead and get another pair of 310a's and the MFXi12.  This will give me a pair for FOH, a pair for monitors, and all the inputs and auxes I need.  Next step will be to look into a sub or two, but first I'll take Bobby's advice and rent one to try--mostly to make sure it's enough of an advantage in our playing situations over the bass combo route.  Am I right that with the ZXA1-Sub, all I'd have to do is plug into it from the mixer and then run from there to the RCF's?  The sub's crossover will feed it everything below 100 Hz, and everything else will go to the tops?  That's what the information on the EV pages suggests, if I'm reading it right. 

        http://www.electrovoice.com/product.php?id=1170

        Very simple, of so.

        Louis

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        • Bobby1Note
          Bobby1Note commented
          Editing a comment

          Louis,

          Since you've already got a pair of 310a's, wouldn't it be wiser to rent the sub first, and try that with your existing pair of 310a's? Push that rig a bit harder than usual, just to see if it performs to your expectation. If they start to get a little ragged when pushed, then the DSR's may be a better fit for you.

          This is a bitch, ain't it? Trying to bridge the two worlds of compact/ultra-portable gigs, with more ambitious projects.

           

          BTW, I may be buying an MFXi-12 myself. I'm off to see my dealer tomorrow, and if he makes me a good offer, I'll probably go for it.


      • #10
        It's nice having some consistency for monitors. What about YX10's for everyone? I have YX10's and YX12's for monitors. The nice thing is a YX12 is a YX12 is a YX12. They don't need to be in a specific order or pair up with a specific amp.

        Makes setup a little bit easier.
        NO SIGNATURE FOR YOU!!

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        • Louis Schwartz
          Louis Schwartz commented
          Editing a comment

          StratGuy22 wrote:
          It's nice having some consistency for monitors. What about YX10's for everyone? I have YX10's and YX12's for monitors. The nice thing is a YX12 is a YX12 is a YX12. They don't need to be in a specific order or pair up with a specific amp.

          Makes setup a little bit easier.


          For a while I used three YX10s.  They work OK as individual monitors, but I balked at using seven of them!  I sold one, and since then have found that with two as wedges in front of the band, my two RCF 310a's fill in the sound for everyone nicely as back fills, with a near-field monitor adding just a little more for the two hand-drummers.  I like the sound of the 310a's much, much better than the YX10s, which can be a little harsh and have comparatively little low-end, so I'm inclined to sell my remaining two and get another pair of 310a's.  At least that's my current plan.

          Louis 


      • #11
        Nice. Matching 310's work as well! Keeps everything consistent...
        NO SIGNATURE FOR YOU!!

        Comment


        • Louis Schwartz
          Louis Schwartz commented
          Editing a comment

          That's what I'm coming to realize!

          Louis



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