Can I use Tape Out/In as Effects Send/Return?

[twotoneblue]

Hello all,

 

Can I use Tape Out (1 kOhm) in mono to feed an effects chain (input impedance > 2 MOhms), and return the signal (output impedance unknown) to the Tape In (> 10 kOhms) ?

 

I am specifically thinking about using this solution with a Mackie 402 or similar tiny mixer and my EHX SMMH.

 

Or if you know of a -tiny- mixer with effects send, please let me know!

 

Thanks for your replies.

ttb

[Craig Vecchione]

It'll work in that you'll get sound from one place to the other. The only control it has is the tape-in level, and the loop you'll build only works on the entire mix, so for all intents and purposes it's no different than running your main output to the effects chain and from there to whatever your main output would go. There's also the possibility of creating a feedback loop.

[twotoneblue]

Hi Craig,

 

Thanks for the heads up about the feedback loop! I think I have seen this warning in the manuals of boards with AUX or EFFECTs sends.

 

I do indeed want the effects on the whole mix, as this is how I work on stage, using mics and guitar to input sound to the same effects loop.

 

Another problem here might be that since the Tape In is before the master level, it means I can never get a 100% wet sound... I guess this is the end of the line for my dreams of having a tiny-tiny mix-box on stage... =P

All is pointing to the slightly larger A&H we discussed in the other thread.

 

 

Thanks again for your reply, man!

 

best

ttb

[dboomer]

I think you will have trouble because you are creating a loop. The tape out is at the end of the chain and the tape in is near the beginning. So anything you add will be sent back into the system and sent out again. That's feedback and it will likely build up rather quickly .

 

OTOH , you could try it but keep your finger on the mute button

[Kalina2]

try to place the block effects in the gap between the Main Out and amplifier .... much depends on what the effects processor you use .... it is not the best option

[twotoneblue]

Thanks for your sound replies people,

 

Mackie tech support just chimed in saying that the tape outs are not meant for this use, and suggests (like Kalina2) that a more feasible workaround would be to mix inputs in the 402 and then run the Main Out(s) into the effects chain and then connect the effects chain output to the PA. The wetness of the sound would then have to be controlled on the pedals themselves.

 

This is a possible solution for me, if my distaste for taking 30x30 cm of mixer to the stage with me, does not subside... =P

[wesg]

How about a small rackmount mixer? You can get 10 channels, two aux sends and a stereo main out in 3U, only 6" deep.

[agedhorse]

I would suggest a more proper tool for the job.

[onelife]

Or if you know of a -tiny- mixer with effects send' date=' please let me know![/quote']

 

I use a Yamaha MW10 for small setups and it works well. It has a proper effects loop with individual sends (mono) and a stereo return.

 

It is not tiny but it is quite small, lightweight, inexpensive and sounds good.

 

It has tape in and out as well as a USB port for two track recording/playback.

 

 

[twotoneblue]

Hello peoples!

 

Thanks for your suggestions!

@wesg - A 3U rack is way bigger than a small mixer =)

@onelife - I'm looking at the A&H ZED 10 to do the same job as the MW10, but they're both still bigger than I would prefer.

@agedhorse - Certainly! What do you reckon is the proper tool for the job?

 

So, I guess you all catch my drift here... anything much bigger than the 402 is not preferrable - though I will go for the A&H if there is no other way =)

 

It is really too bad that nothing of the size of the 402 with an aux send exists... I mean there has got to be other people looking to submix a few inputs for their effects loop...right?

 

-ttb

[mikekars]

I can think of one hokey way you might accomplish what you want. Use the main L/R out or TAPE OUT as input to your SMMH pedal. Take the return from the SMMH back to the TAPE INPUT. Make sure TAPE INPUT is NOT assigned to mains.

 

Now connect your PA to your HEADPHONE OUT jack on the 402.

 

• The HEADPHONE LEVEL control becomes your main overall volume control.
  
• The dry main mix level is controlled by the individual channel level knobs.
  
• The main mix level sent to the SMMH is controlled by the main level knob on the 402
  
• EFX return mix level from SMMH is controlled by the TAPE IN LEVEL knob
  

This would take some careful gain staging to balance the signals to the right levels. Also still not possible to get a completely wet output. But perhaps if you were able to keep the main dry mix level low enough compared to the efx return on the tape input you could get pretty close.

 

Switching between a dry and wet sound would best be accomplished with the bypass button on the SMMH so that overall signal level coming back into TAPE in is maintained. Otherwise you would have to fiddle with both the TAPE IN level and the PHONES level to keep the same overall volume when switching back and forth.

 

Like I said, hokey. But it might work with no additional gear.

[agedhorse]

As features get added to make a product more useful, it's size growns naturally in order to accommodate these features.

[twotoneblue]

Hey mikekars, thats interesting! and indeed doable!

 

Could you alternatively run the mixer in mono, with the channel 1 and 2 panned hard left, left main out (or left tape out) going into effects, then from effects to channel 4 (right channel of 3/4)? This would mean the main level would control both input to and output from effects... not sure thats so great... and is stereo bleed an issue in digital gear?

[mikekars]

Don't see why that wouldn't work even better. You would want to get a setting that works on the main L/R out level and leave it set. The SMMH would be used to turn off and on the efx with it's bypass switch. You could get a completely wet mix with your scheme. With the main L/R level control fixed, the level control on input 3/4 becomes your main overall volume control.

 

I have to tell you though that I used to come up with strange setups like this when I did not have a mixer with enough flexibility to do what I wanted, and it ends up being very confusing to operate. Not a good thing if you are trying to debug a problem in a live scenario. I guess if you do the same setup every time and you find something that works it could be OK. But for general purpose mixing with different set ups each time, an arcane routing scheme adds too much confusion to an already complex task.

[twotoneblue]

Those are wise words mikekars,

 

I want to thank you for actually considering my crazy ideas. While I am pretty sure the solution we are discussing would work, I see your point in having a mixer that is meant to perform the routing I am looking for. I guess I will just have to take the ZED10 to the stage, but hey, at least the mixer replaces my mic preamp and previous sound routing solution (hacked Boss LS-2).

 

Thanks again for your input, everyone!