Members Dogoth Posted June 7, 2014 Members Share Posted June 7, 2014 Awhile back I posted that the company I work for was building a new venue with a newly installed PA. Well it's a Roland M 480 mixer and 7ea M 48 mini mixers (the M 48s are not just a control surface but an actual self contained mini mixer (digital in only) with headphone & line outs). The line outs can be setup with a LPF (I'd guess to run a drum butt thumper or a small sub to accentuate IEM's). Kinda cool. The A/V company installing it doesn't really know how it works. Supposedly it was per-configured at their shop in another city and shipped to our venue. The first thing I asked the installer was (can you show me how these pieces of gear all talk to each other and what to do if they loose contact (it's all CAT 5 PoE Data). The FOH fellow I work with a lot (a pretty decent audio guy but not a computer/networking guy at all) and I decided to do a full system test (MP3 player, Keyboard & vocal) through mains and folded back to IEMs via the mini M 48s. Firstly there is no signal getting to the board at all. After the installers scratching their heads and making a few calls they made that happen. Then the M 48 wasn't recognized at all so after some more noodling they got some return signal to happen. At that point they grabbed their hats and said "gotta catch a plane" and were on their way. Well it turns out this board is NOT functioning to spec at all (more likely the multiple digital snakes, & splitters (Really a propriety switch of sorts) aren't configured or wired properly. I know just enough about networking to be dangerous (regular computer ethernet with dynamic I.P.s and such) but this stuff is REALLY proprietary and esoteric. Supposidly another fellow who knows this gear inside out will be showing up around 2PM Monday. The doors open to the venue at 4PM Monday. Luckily my boss saw what was going on and agrees that this is a manfunctioning system and not operator error. I've read the manual and watched numerous training videos about OPERATION but none of them mention setup & interconnecting (this is where the problem lies). The A/V company is being called to task to make it right (I just really want to know what they finally do to make it so :-). You just gotta love waiting until 11:59 to make your gear work. I was hoping to get a little "seat" time at this console but if it's configured correctly, I'm pretty sure I can drive it without any huge issues. FWIW it seems to be a reasonably flexible console. Navigation is not as bad as I had figured (we just need to get sound to come out (like FOH would be nice :-). The FOH is absolute overkill for the room 4X dual 10" + 2" top Renkus Heinz line array per side and 4X dual 18" sub bins. 4X 15" 3 way Renkus boxes for center fills & dance floor. Something like 12 12" 2 way delayed boxes for other areas of the venue. This is a fairly low ceiling (about 14' - 16') night club/restaurant with a capacity of about 350. The A/V company originally sent a bunch of 15" JBL Eon's for monitors but with the artists having their own controls, we insisted on IEMs (we will provide a couple if a singer needs to travel a lot but they will be run from an aux from FOH). It seems obvious that this A/V company doesn't do a lot of live SR installations or they never would have spec's the monitor setup that way. Right now I'm in the middle of a giant (Oh I can't even use the initials here) but I think it will all get straightened out in time. I must add that there are no fewer that 4 nights of National acts and a regional Country band all playing in this same "Grand Opening" week (one, in my regular theatre where I play monitor man:-). I'll get to sleep sometime NEXT Saturday :-). Once it's all operating correctly, I'll post some reviews of the different gear used with model numbers and all (give me a few weeks to access it all). Fun Fun! Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dbMontana Posted June 7, 2014 Members Share Posted June 7, 2014 Wowie! Hang on for the ride huh? Best of luck sir. Please do keep us posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 7, 2014 Members Share Posted June 7, 2014 Yikes, configuration is part of the install, not optional!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pro Sound Guy Posted June 7, 2014 Members Share Posted June 7, 2014 http://www.rolandsystemsgroup.com/assets/media/pdf/m48_SettingUpYourPM.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pro Sound Guy Posted June 7, 2014 Members Share Posted June 7, 2014 http://www.rolandsystemsgroup.com/products/100024 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted June 7, 2014 Author Members Share Posted June 7, 2014 http://www.rolandsystemsgroup.com/assets/media/pdf/m48_SettingUpYourPM.pdf Thanks. Yup I've already seen those documents & info.The issue is they have an extra REAC (being used to send audio out to the LRC & delayed areas) which the board just isn't recognizing at all. Also the one and only M48 the board sees is oddly sharing it's channel flow with REAC A (I.E. we discovered that to get direct out audio to it's group knob 1 the patch-bay requires that we negate the aux 1 which is driving REAC A). It doesen't even see the other M48s attached to the switch/splitter. Something is terribly wrong with the installation. There's another switch/splitter driving the unrecognised REAC in the amp rack in a back room which has unplugged CAT5s and appears abandoned (which is probably why there's no LRC). Since the board only can recognize 2 REACS AFAIK, I believe their design is flawed (Glad I'm not the contractor). It's up to them to make it work (let's hope it's in a timely manner). I'll know a little more in a couple of hours. Worst case, if these guys do the deed to the pooch, I believe I can run 6 live monitors from auxes and ship audio back down the hallway via long XLR's to the LR (maybe not center or delay's zones). I'm already thinking of last minute emergency contingencies if these guys don't come through (not ideal but it'll work). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pro Sound Guy Posted June 8, 2014 Members Share Posted June 8, 2014 Woa what a mess...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted June 8, 2014 Author Members Share Posted June 8, 2014 An update (this is a good place to vent since youse guys know what I'm goin thru :-). Got a schematic/block diagram drawing of the whole system and went to town. Got the whole system up and operating except subs (separate send). This is making it to a BSS distro processor in the amp rack and muted there. A separate DJ system that feeds the same boxes (depending on what mode you're in) feeds the same speakers thru a different input and they work fine. Nice unit but it's only accessible thru a computer (which we don't have setup yet. Sort of like the low end DBX driveracks. Don't know why they couldn't have put a couple of buttons & a small screen on the front.....but hey. The A/V guys had the stage box digital snakes all mucked up as far as addressing was concerned. With no help from them I figured it out and made it right. NOW we can see all of the small onstage personal monitor mixers and spent the day addressing them. YEA we have a 90% working system!!! I'm working even MORE hours (days off/ Sleep? What's that? :-). Going to hopefully work out the last few kinks tonite and be ready for the first band Tuesday (which they added last minute - our guinee pigs he he he). It should go OK. I heard our LD sitting next to me cussing at his new system more than I do, so I think we're doing something right :-). We're accumulating lift and will probably be able to clear the runway before we have to go wheels up :-). Ouch! cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 8, 2014 Members Share Posted June 8, 2014 Good luck! (with dog as your co-pilot) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted June 17, 2014 Author Members Share Posted June 17, 2014 OK the system is finally done and operating. It is installed in a Gilley's Country music restaurant/bar/dance hall/disco. In it's first 5 days of use it has seen 3 different bands (including Mickey Gilley him self with a scaled down band). FWIW I have worked with this gentleman many times before in years past. Great guy. Here's what it is and what I think (so far) about it. Mains:Renkus Heinz PN120LA powered line array boxes (4 per side)Renkus Heinz DR15-2R Dual 18" powered sub boxes (total 4)Renkus Heinz 12" 2 way unpowered fill boxes (total 20 in delayed zones such as bar, restaurant, lounge area etc...) Distribution & DSP:BSS London Blue Monitors:Shure SE315 IEM's driven by Roland M48 personal monitor mixers. There are some other various Renkus DJ speakers & ceiling speakers that I don't access while in "live sound" mode so I'll leave those out. The Roland M480 V-mixing system is and OK unit. I'm not in love with it's user interface but it isn't unworkable either. I think the digital snakes with the Mic pre on stage work well. We have had a few issues with board to stage communication but I think this is due to the fact that there are 3 D-snakes, 2 switches (basically a VERY PROPRIETARY network switch) and 6 mM48 monitor mixers attached. If it were a simple system without the switches & M48s attached, I believe it would be pretty solid (really only time will tell for sure). The M48 personal mixers are sort of like the ugly stepchild that was brought along just because they needed something like this in the family. IMO they are hinky (love that word) at best. They work PoE and if one gets unplugged while the board is live, you must re-initialize all of your units serially (about 30 seconds each) and then load each preset (patch point information, etc...) back in. 6 units, six files. This can be done from a thumb drive only (you'd think the board would save this info as "all" scene info but.....nope. This can ONLY be done from a thumb drive at FOH and will NOT remember what the mix was that was just lost OUCH!. Overall if this happens it could take you up to 9 minutes to have a working monitor system again and even then you lost the mixes you had (at least they're self mixed). Double OUCH! The Renkus system is pretty nice (albeit overkill for a venue with a cap of about 400 people and a dance floor cap of about 60 (crowded)). It's a bit hard to tell as the room is quite live but I think the line array gear is the only thing making it passable. That's my thoughts so far. I'll report more about this new venue later. Cheers Almost forgot. The BSS london processor is an AMAZING piece of gear. I don't think it's cheap but I'm really impressed so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pro Sound Guy Posted June 17, 2014 Members Share Posted June 17, 2014 Better more system then not enough is my motto Like a Cadillac in overdrive. Why have a small system pushed hard. I like to push the loudspeaker systems large and small (safe zone of course) I was looking over the BSS units! Nice! Is the "London" the tube emulation? Glad its all going well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted June 17, 2014 Author Members Share Posted June 17, 2014 Is the "London" the tube emulation? Not that I know of. I really haven't dug into the manual of it at all but from what I can tell it is an audio DSP/Distro unit that has some pretty amazing capabilities. I know that we have wireless control over multiple zones with delay's (just walk around with a pad and adjust to taste). I believe this is part of what the BSS is doing (I don't see anything else in the rack that appears to have that many I/O's). I'm going to ask the installation company more about this when I get a chance. They did a nice clean COMMERCIAL sound installation, they (nor the architect of the project) just didn't know much at all about Live sound reinforcement. Right now I'm still concentrating on making sure the live SR part of this whole system is kept operating properly. As I said, when I learn more and figure out exactly what is what, I'll keep everyone posted. I'm simultaneously learning a PC based (touch screen) lighting console (I believe it's Martin software) and a camera controller/video switcher. Currently I'm learning to OPERATE this gear, I'll peek under the hood after a few successful road trips :-). Really I'm hoping they hire someone to be the regular board operator in this room. It's loud, country bar stuff (not really my cup of tea). The technology is really quite interesting but the environment (from the patrons to the musicians to the acoustics) are not all that much fun to deal with. The other room that I do monitors in is a MUCH classier gig all the way around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted June 17, 2014 CMS Author Share Posted June 17, 2014 Do you feel confident that you could troubleshoot a problem (like zero sound from one or more places) in the system during a show? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pro Sound Guy Posted June 18, 2014 Members Share Posted June 18, 2014 I was kidding about the "London" sound. Ya know the warm tube British tone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted June 18, 2014 Author Members Share Posted June 18, 2014 Do you feel confident that you could troubleshoot a problem (like zero sound from one or more places) in the system during a show? Honestly at this point. No (well possibly if I'm lucky - I hate to depend on luck though). The system was handed to us (in a non-operating condition) with so little time to learn anything that I'm concentrating on what I need to know to make my part of it operate. I'm certainly continuing to learn as fast as I can and in a few weeks, I should be at this point. This rush to open was a decision of our new management. My middle management boss only knows slightly more than I do about the system as a whole and less that I do about the Roland gear. This of course has been discussed with the CEO & vice presidents. They are aware of the risk. FWIW as I posted earlier, the A/v company DID do a nice clean installation (complete with quite accurate block diagrams & flow charts). I DO feel fairly confident in it's continuing to operate properly until I can get a handle on the whole thing (it's a pretty sophisticated system over all). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DanCostello Posted June 19, 2014 Members Share Posted June 19, 2014 The M48 personal mixers are sort of like the ugly stepchild that was brought along just because they needed something like this in the family. IMO they are hinky (love that word) at best. They work PoE and if one gets unplugged while the board is live, you must re-initialize all of your units serially (about 30 seconds each) and then load each preset (patch point information, etc...) back in. 6 units, six files. This can be done from a thumb drive only (you'd think the board would save this info as "all" scene info but.....nope. This can ONLY be done from a thumb drive at FOH and will NOT remember what the mix was that was just lost OUCH!. Overall if this happens it could take you up to 9 minutes to have a working monitor system again and even then you lost the mixes you had (at least they're self mixed). Double OUCH! Wow. That'd be a deal-breaker for me. Why did they go with the Roland system? -Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted June 20, 2014 Author Members Share Posted June 20, 2014 Wow. That'd be a deal-breaker for me. Why did they go with the Roland system? -Dan. Well there is another "Gilley's" Nightclub in Las Vegas that has the Roland system. The new managment said "we gotta have what those guys have" (even though the new room & stage are about 50% the size). They hired the same architect & contractor (and therfore probably the same sub contractors) to build this place. It was a sort of "keep up with the Jones's ". Little did they know the Jones's didn't really buy the best thing either. This is also why we have far more PA than is really needed for the room (somebody made some money :-). FWIW it's not quite as bad as I had originally portrayed. It seems that if you power the board off, you can then disconnect the M48s and all of the other devices and as long as they are ALL patched back in the same place, when the board powers back up, it never knew they were gone and the whole system comes up within 30 seconds or so (we're learning all of the little quirks that aren't in the manual :-). Considering the cost, I still don't think I'd recommend this system just because IMHO there is better for less money. But hey, it's not my money and they didn't ask me (what would I know about pro audio? ;-). Still trying to find out more about the BSS London Blue processor but I've been OFF for a couple of days :-). Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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