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  • You could get thick tones I suppose using the low volume mode. I find it interesting that the LVM is still pretty loud when you crank the master. To get the meaty, thick gain from those at full volume would be pretty crazy db's I would think as the dt25 is super loud for its size. I'll give it a go next time the family is out. The nice thing with the hd500 is that you can just whack a screamer/comp boost/whatever in front to crank it. There is nothing to say you could put a standalone pedal in front of the DT25 to crank it, but that isn't really what yr asking.



    I agree that the Park 75 can seem slightly toothless when you compare it to something like the JCM800. As much as I love the amp, I'm glad I have the extension of the hd500. Even with just the 4 voicings of the amp, all those pedal options create endless sound possibilities. (then add into the mix the other 22 amp voicings). I've said it before, and one more time. So much fun!



    Edit: from my reading, it seems that it is the Bright channel on the park that is included on the dt25. Just a thought also about more gain, you could try the Park in topology III or IV and see what you can get it of it. I'm pretty sure it is already class AB. All of this is from memory. Sorry.

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    • Intersting, I didn't know you could disconnect the topologies from their preferred pre's.
      http://soundcloud.com/hugespiders

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      • Quote Originally Posted by GDan
        View Post

        Intersting, I didn't know you could disconnect the topologies from their preferred pre's.




        This is where the fun and real uniqueness of the DT amps come in...It looks like you have 25 amps/ and 25 pre-amp versions...but, the NFL topologies are completely interchangeable (as well as class and pentode/ triode) for any given preset. the possibilities are staggering based on this alone.



        The DT amps come with 4 voicing types. What Henry listed for the names of the models seems correct. The Mesa Rectifier (high gain modern example) as the type IV topology is the one unusual case...as the 'Treadplate' (dual rectifier model), as well as the Bogner models are listed as type III topologies in the Pod HD's. The only true type IV example is the Engl Fireball model.



        For practical purposes, since any and all of this is interchangeable. The type III NFL (meaning NO negative feedback) makes an amp sound brighter, louder and grainier (more saturated sounding). the type IV topology is the highest in negative feedback. I would imagine that was designed to 'tame' modern high gain amps from sounding out of control. So, this seems to make the sound quieter, although more with more bass harmonics and a larger sound (I do not mean louder).



        I have found type III sounds good on clean Class AB amps for rhythm guitars and for acoustics making them sound more real in DT amps and perhaps saving you from having to send your acoustic models to the house PA. It also lends more grind to any of the high gain amps as well as the Marshall models (which are all type II's). This would be an immediate way to make your Marshall models sound hotter and more saturated besides what you are doing with the drive knob and the master on the power amp (if you are using a full amp model).



        Pentodes are the usual setting for all the models, but employing triodes can make a very loud preset suddenly come under control. It also takes away some brightness. And can make an amp model sound 'smaller'- which might be useful to capture some vintage tones you might be going after.



        Putting all this together with your choice of amps, class, effects, cabinets & mics, full or pre-amp models...you can sculpt almost any possible tone that you have heard, and then create some tones that have not yet been heard in this universe I would say! Pretty much fun altogether. I think that is why Craig's daughter is getting to have so much time on his 'new' Nylon string guitar!

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        • Quote Originally Posted by GDan
          View Post

          Intersting, I didn't know you could disconnect the topologies from their preferred pre's.




          I'm pretty sure this is what Craig is doing in the examples. He sets up the drive, eq, volume, presence, xxxode, and class recommended by the plastic sheet that comes on top of the amp. There are four so he sewt up one (American Clean for example) then simply cycled through the topologies manually. Then set up the above mentioned setting for the next voicing. My understanding is that a voicing= drive, eq, presence, volume + topology (I-IV) + xxxode + Class. The advice sheet on top of the amp gives you guidelines to achieve what Line 6 suggest is the closest approximation of the modelled amp. But this is just a suggestion, though, beyond this you can manually alter any or all of these settings to drastically alter the sounds. Pretty cool.



          The difference is that the DT25 is manual by nature whereas the HDxx sets up the options for you automatically to match what is on the advice plate. (The Treadplate is topology IV on the DT25 but III in the HDxx) The HDxx is no less changeable though, you can do it on the pedal, on the amp itself, or in Edit. They all talk to each other, amazingly.








          I dont like Mesa style gain.



          This is why I don't think you should give up on the Treadplate. You could drastically alter the gain structure of the model by changing any or all of the options. Experimentation is fun. You may already have played around with no luck. I might have a go tonight and see what happens.

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          • Quote Originally Posted by Henryswansen
            View Post

            I'm pretty sure this is what Craig is doing in the examples.




            That's exactly right. Then again, I'm the kind of person who takes effects apart to see if there are any trimpots that would benefit from user adjustment



            My basic take is that yes, you can model the various iconic amp sounds but that's not what really interests me. The main reason I got into making my own effects was because I didn't like the sound of the effects out there. Similarly, although I like the sound of Marshall, Fender, Vox, etc. I also like to create variations on those themes that are customized to the sound I want.



            I recorded a "beefy but a little brighter" amp sound a couple hours ago, I'll post it tonight. I wasn't trying specifically to get a Marshall sound; I don't have a Marshall here for comparison anyway. I just wanted a big sound with some highs. I placed the mic about 1 meter away from the amp, which gives a "rounder" sound that I prefer compared to closer miking.



            I recorded the previous examples in a more traditional way to give a more detailed sound of the amp, but once you get some air and room between the amp and the mic, I find it more "satisfying" even if it's a somewhat less accurate representation.
            N E W S O N G ! To Say 'No' Would Be a Crime (Remix) is now streamable from my YouTube channel.

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            • Here's an example of a Voicing II tone that I tweaked. The first half is the example by itself, while in the second, I added some "virtual room mics" to give it some stereo imaging, and sound more like the amp does when you're playing it in a room.



              This doesn't have as much crunch as is possible with Voicing IV, but it still has some pretty serious fat distortion going on. See what you think...if you'd like to hear some variations ("more distortion," "what does it sound like if you clean it up" or whatever), let me know.
              N E W S O N G ! To Say 'No' Would Be a Crime (Remix) is now streamable from my YouTube channel.

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              • Quote Originally Posted by Anderton
                View Post

                Here's an example of a Voicing II tone that I tweaked. The first half is the example by itself, while in the second, I added some "virtual room mics" to give it some stereo imaging, and sound more like the amp does when you're playing it in a room.



                This doesn't have as much crunch as is possible with Voicing IV, but it still has some pretty serious fat distortion going on. See what you think...if you'd like to hear some variations ("more distortion," "what does it sound like if you clean it up" or whatever), let me know.




                Interesting, what are you doing there?



                Also, how do you change the topology separate from the voicings? The manual doesn't seem to mention it, or can you only do that with a POD?





                BTW If you listen to vapor trails in the link in my sig the guitars there are all dimed plexi model, thats basically the sound I'm looking for in a small package.
                http://soundcloud.com/hugespiders

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                • I know you asked Craig but I figure why not chime in. If you look at my post #229 you can see what I think makes up what Line 6 call a voicing. To switch topologies, all you have to do it flick the toggle switch marked I II III IV up and down and this switches the topology. It's easier to switch topologies on the amp than in the pod. In fact, off the top of my head I can't think how to do that.

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                  • Quote Originally Posted by GDan
                    View Post

                    Interesting, what are you doing there?




                    Nothing special; I just selected the Voicing II option, chose Pentode and Class A, and adjusted the gain and tone controls for a sound I liked. For the virtual room sound, I added four short delays (based on prime numbers) in parallel, mixed down low.








                    Also, how do you change the topology separate from the voicings? The manual doesn't seem to mention it, or can you only do that with a POD?



                    None of the DT25 sounds so far have involved the POD at all. I think what you need to do is not get hung up on the concept of voicings and topology. Simply stated, the Voicing switch changes the topology. Think of it as just one more control that adds a different character to whatever settings you've dialed in with the gain and tone stack controls.





                    BTW If you listen to vapor trails in the link in my sig the guitars there are all dimed plexi model, thats basically the sound I'm looking for in a small package.[/QUOTE]
                    N E W S O N G ! To Say 'No' Would Be a Crime (Remix) is now streamable from my YouTube channel.

                    Subscribe, like, and share the links!

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                    • I'd be quite interested to hear some comparison recordings using an in room mic compared to the direct out on the back. Apparently there is some quite nifty cab and mic modelling involved in the direct out.

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                      • Well....I went ahead and pulled the trigger. I took what Craig has done here and the contributions of fellow forumites, and figured I needed to pull the trigger or look elsewhere. So took a long drive and demo'd one (again) and got the DT 25 head/cab yesterday. HNGD to me!!!!!



                        I finally got to compare the head/cab option to the combo, and I did find a difference and the extra $ was worth it to me. I found a little more focus and definition to the head/cab version. The higher gain stuff had the right 'corners' in the tone that the open backness of the combo took away. Not the combos fault....open backs are more airy and dispersed sounding by nature cuz the sound is...wait for it..... dispersed thru the open back....



                        I read a review in Guitar Player on the dt50 and it talked about how there was a big difference in tone in how the amp reacted in low power mode vs at higher volumes. Since this amp will be used in a low volume gig situation, this aspect was important to me. Why spend the money if it is basically going to be a 'spider IV' at low volumes? Therefore I listened pretty close to how the sound changed as the power amp engaged and some volume 'heft' was added to the tone. Good low wattage tube amps with lots of features (2 channnels, efx loops, tone shaping etc) are hard to find at the dt25's price point. So I was really pulling for the amp to do what I wanted it to.



                        In regular power mode, I compared the amp's tones at various volume levels at the store. And I found it to be no different than a regular tube amp. A little juice (volume) makes the eggs (tubes) taste better. I did find a difference in reactivity and feel in similar db levels (by ear) between the low power mode off and the amp at low volume vs LP mode on and knobs up. It did sound and feel a bit better in regular mode. But there was enough goodness at the volume I need with the low power off that I was satisfied it would work in my situation. That was my main concern.



                        But as usual, you don't know nothin about an amp until you play it with the band and tweak it to needs that only arise when there are 4 or 5 other cats whackin notes with ya. I'll let ya know how that goes.



                        But what I'm really interested in is the interconnectivity of the rig. I also bought the HD500 weeks ago. Presets of course are not for me, but I have about 8 patches I will need to build for the gig to start out, so I'll be hitting the tweak shed for the next couple weeks. The tweak shed is a place one can either love, or loathe depending on the gear....so we'll see. Lots of options and details to stroke thru, so we'll see!



                        Thanks to all who have contributed and to Craig for the hard work.



                        I love the smell of new gear in the morning!
                        "Be regular and orderly in your life so that you may be violent and original in your work" - Gustave Flaubert

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                        • We had our first rehearsal today since I got the DT25. The drummer was playing an accoustic kit for the first time in a while so it was pretty loud. I had the amp master volume at 12 and it was definitely loud enough. Any louder and it might have been obnoxious. I was using the tread plate model, topology IV (I'm actually using the hd500 so it's technically topology IiI) and the American clean. The modern gain sounded awesome for the stuff that we are playing. The clean wasn't as sparkly as I want but I know it's just a matter of tweaking.



                          Previously I had felt distracted by the fact my guitar didn't sound right, but today, it growled when it was meant to, it chugged when it was meant too, it was nice and clean when it was meant too. I just enjoyed playing it. It was by far the best rehearsal we have had.



                          Getting time to play at full volume is a bit of a luxury at the moment so it was nice to let it off it's leash. We have a gig in about a month and a half and I'll only be taking the head and my pod, plugging into whatever cab they have there. Can't wait.

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                          • This is a great little amp! I took the amp to a pal's studio and did some side by sides with a Goodsell Black Dog combo, A Brown Note 44, a Carr Viceroy combo, and a Boogie Tremoverb combo. And the dt25 held it's own. Just as much definition and reactivity and touch as the other amps. Of course the tones were different, and I was not looking for the topologies to replicate anything....just taking them on their own and dialing in each one and exploring the options.



                            First impression? ME LIKEEE.....



                            Next step, tweak about 5 or 6 useable patches with the HD500 and a few gigs and some more tweaks.
                            "Be regular and orderly in your life so that you may be violent and original in your work" - Gustave Flaubert

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                            • I've had the amp a bit over a week now, so I thought I'd give a slightly more in depth opinion on it. It is far and away the best amp I've ever played through, though I admit I don't have a lot of experience with tube amps. I love all four models, every one of them can give me goosebumps. I can't believe how loud this thing gets for 25 W amp. I haven't picked up my acoustic guitar in a week and usually it's the other way around.



                              Now my gripes. I'm not as in love with the dream rig. I can't put my finger on why but when I inject the pod HD 500 into the mix I lose the goosebumps. A lot of that I'm sure is just the patches themselves. I wish there was a way to bypass the modeling and effects in the HD 500 and still let me use all the I/O of the device. I need it in the mix for reamping when I record. A lot of this is user error I am sure. I still need to spend a lot more time with the HD 500 to learn it. I'm sure it is a great piece of kit for playing live, but since I'm going to use this almost exclusively for recording, all those effects aren't doing me much good as I would rather apply effects on the computer.

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                              • Quote Originally Posted by dramey
                                View Post

                                I'm not as in love with the dream rig. I can't put my finger on why but when I inject the pod HD 500 into the mix I lose the goosebumps. A lot of that I'm sure is just the patches themselves. I wish there was a way to bypass the modeling and effects in the HD 500 and still let me use all the I/O of the device.




                                There are several ways to do that, which we'll cover once we start in on the integration aspect. But, let me tell you a pertinent story.



                                I've reviewed a lot of Line 6 gear over the years. Every time they came up with a new version, like going from POD Farm to POD Farm 2, or from POD to XT, or whatever, I'd plug in, dial through the presets, and think that somehow, Line 6 had lost the recipe for making good sounds...and that the product had actually taken a step backward.



                                I finally figured out the Reality of Guitar Effects Presets, and when I first started playing with the POD HD500, I knew what to do. For many of the presets, stripping them down to their essentials produced a much more appropriate sound to my ears (and my style of playing). As I said in my review of the HD500 in the Harmony Central articles library:



                                "In my opinion, it’s the more refined amp modeling that’s the major difference between the HD series and what came before. However, there is a caution: A lot of the presets seem intended to show off what the unit can do, and some are very complex and not particularly useful from a musical standpoint—although they’re probably pretty impressive in a music store showroom. I found many immensely satisfying sounds by stripping a preset down to amp with a carefully selected cabinet and mic, along with maybe EQ and one other effect. Sometimes less really can be more, although if you want to go crazy nuts, you can do that too.



                                "Also remember that it’s highly unlikely the presets were programmed with someone who uses the same guitar, playing style, pick, and string gauge as you do. After reviewing Line 6 gear since the original POD, I’ve pretty much figured out that I need to pull back a bit on the drive before deciding whether a preset is going to work for me or not. A little tweaking can make the difference between a preset that you’d pass by, or one that sounds phenomenal for what you do."
                                N E W S O N G ! To Say 'No' Would Be a Crime (Remix) is now streamable from my YouTube channel.

                                Subscribe, like, and share the links!

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