I've been having a crapload of trouble making melodies

I think my voice probably sounds fine, because when I sing along to songs I do a great job of emoting and projecting. But as soon as I have to make my own stuff, I'm pretty lost. I ask this question periodically but I still haven't found a good way. Any advice?

I know this might not be of much help, but a lot of it has to do with feel. It might be a good idea to find a collaborator.

I know. I've been using collaborators for years, but I have a strong desire to sing for myself and to write songs with vocals autonomously.

Do you play any instruments at all?

I think the best way to work up a melody if it doesn't come natural to you is to take the chords you are working with and find a scale that works with those chords.

using the scale as a "road map" you can easily take those notes and your instrument (even a tiny little 20.00 portable keyboard will work) and using ONLY those notes (mark them with tape if you have to) start fooling around with them until it sounds...well, melodic!

It's really hard for me to envision not being able to just make things up from your head- improvising is the only way I come up with vocal melodies at all. Instruments are different, i kinda start with a scale as stated above.

Another thing you can try is to make a CD or tape of the chord progression and or song structure you are working with and play it in your car over and over again- you will probably find yourself humming/singing over it eventually.

Good luck- there is also a book called "creating melodies" and other books:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/063400638X/qid=1089826162/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-0577048-8311940?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0898796024/qid=1089826162/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/104-0577048-8311940?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

If those look interesting to you I would suggest you head down to your local library and check them out for FREE- or see if another library in the system has them and get an interlibrary loan. Or check them out at a bookstore to see if they may help.

Good Luck and keep us posted.

-B

Originally posted by BryanMichael Do you play any instruments at all? I think the best way to work up a melody if it doesn't come natural to you is to take the chords you are working with and find a scale that works with those chords. using the scale as a "road map" you can easily take those notes and your instrument (even a tiny little 20.00 portable keyboard will work) and using ONLY those notes (mark them with tape if you have to) start fooling around with them until it sounds...well, melodic! It's really hard for me to envision not being able to just make things up from your head- improvising is the only way I come up with vocal melodies at all. Instruments are different, i kinda start with a scale as stated above. Another thing you can try is to make a CD or tape of the chord progression and or song structure you are working with and play it in your car over and over again- you will probably find yourself humming/singing over it eventually. Good luck- there is also a book called "creating melodies" and other books: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/063400638X/qid=1089826162/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-0577048-8311940?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0898796024/qid=1089826162/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/104-0577048-8311940?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 If those look interesting to you I would suggest you head down to your local library and check them out for FREE- or see if another library in the system has them and get an interlibrary loan. Or check them out at a bookstore to see if they may help. Good Luck and keep us posted. -B

I agree.

Also, buy a guitar, and learn to play through a major scale, and then a minor scale. Sing each note as you play. You will naturally start to 'jump ahead' and in your 'mind's ear', hear the notes before they are played.

After a week of doing this 30 minutes per day, your minds ear will recall these scales, and their relative notes. After another week or so of practice, you'll be so familar with them that with a little bit of intent, you'll start to improvise internally.

There you have it.

I know write all of my melodies this way.

Best wishes!

I think this an interesting topic.

I write complete songs and have never particularly liked my vocal melodies, except in parts. I haven't really broken down what it is that I don't like but it's annoying enough that when I hear a good song I am always impressed with the melodic hooks I hear.

At any rate, I think the ability to write melodies is an often overlooked talent. Probably because it is one that is very internalized and improvised at the writing level. I think it is very hard to do well and possibly harder to teach.

You know who I think comes up with unbelievably great vocal melodies? Don't laugh. Gwen Stefani in No Doubt. Very creative and melodious.

Originally posted by BryanMichael Do you play any instruments at all? I think the best way to work up a melody if it doesn't come natural to you is to take the chords you are working with and find a scale that works with those chords. -B

That's a very good point. To elaborate, this is almost always how I compose melodies. If you come up with a unique and interesting enough chord progression and just start singing anything over it, you may find a melody starting to take shape. Of course, that's the simple answer--I usually keep refining and making changes as I go, but the ideas usually start by just singing something while playing the chords. Having a tape recorder helps too, because you can just record your chord progression and play it back while concentrating on the melody and not having to worry about what you are playing at the same time.

Of course this approach really only works if you either play an instrument, or have a collaborator who does.

I do play guitar. The problem I have with playing in a scale over it and then singing that melody is, the way I play melodically on guitar doesn't seem to fit for singing. I think I'm going to try to get my voice to memorize the major and minor scales, and try doing that.

Maybe it will work!

I've found that when folks are dissatisfied with the melodies of their songs, it isnt the notes, but the rythm.

Take one of your chord progressions and sing your melody, but totally hack the rythm, syncopate, stop, get crazy. Also consciously try to make some jumps to intervals you normally wouldnt hit. Chances are parts of it will sound stupid, but other parts will be keepers.

Here's an easy way to generate melodies that my guitar teacher tought me once.

First, take a sheet of paper and write out the alpabet like this

A...B...C...D...E...F...G

H...I....J....K...L...M...N

O...P...Q...R...S...T...U

V...W...X...Y...Z

Now... Take any word or name... Let's use the word "Melody" and use only the letters from the top row... so "M" would translate to the letter above it or "F". the entire word spells out.

F E E A D D

You can then either place these as notes on a staff (you can choose where as far as what octave) and have an instant melody, or use them as chords and write your own melody over the chords.

It doesnt define things for your, but sometimes gives you a place to start.

Good luck

Something I like to do to help me write melodies is to think about the notes of the chords that are being played underneath the melody. Say, for instance, you're singing over a G chord, you should know automatically that besides the root (G), you can also sing the major third (B) or the fifth (D). Of course, any note from the G-major scale would work(though the major 7th can get a bit ugly), but those are fairly good starting points.

Another thing I experiment with is implying different chords. I have a song that I use as a vocal warm-up. The whole song consists of really simple chords. The verse, for example, uses only two chords, G5 and Cadd9. At first, I thought this to be too simple, but every time I tried to embellish the rhythm, but I was never satisfied with my attempts. So, instead of actually playing more complicated chords, I decided to try to imply these chords with my voice. Instead of singing the expected C or G over the Cadd9, I sing a B, implying a Cmaj9, which changes the whole mood of the section, since maj9 chords have a slightly melancholic feel to them.

My best advice, though, would be to keep trying. Songwriting is an on-going learning process.

-Jim

Post Scriptum So how was that for a first post?

you've either got it or you aint! if you've got it then you'd have no need to post a thread like this!

Nothing wrong with seeking to improve one's abilities.

yeah sure, but it's true tho.

Surely not every great composer has written gold from the word go?

IMHO the degree of improvement that is achievable is only determined by the individuals desire to perfect something to their satisfaction.

I've always disagreed with this point of view, but my discouragement in singing is making them reconsider. I finally had some time to myself at home to sing away, but I just couldn't do it. Everything sounded wrong and off and weird. It's hard to describe. This block is so frustrating.

You might want to check out the book "Writing Music For Hit Songs", by Jai Josefs, if you enjoy reading that sort of stuff. I found the book to be a fun read.

Just become one of those screamers/spoken word hardcore people.

I've found that it is easier to write melodies if you listen to different genres of music from what you are trying to write. For instance, I primarily write melodic hardcore/emocore style songs (no flaming please). Whenever I get a "block", I listen to some jazz (usually Coltrane or Benson), or even bluegrass or swing. I was amazed at how I was able to write more smoothly, and it seems easier to come up with things.

Kirk Hammett is the one who taught me this trick. He did a column in Guitar World about it once.

No offense Phil, but this is utter horse{censored}.

While many people have 'innate' abilities to sing, play and instrument, write poetry, draw, paint, etc.. It has been my lifelong experience that ANYONE can learn these skills- and almost everyone can improve upon them.

Your 'advice' is really the biggest lie that creative people have foisted on those that are less inclined- that they somehow don't 'have IT' so there is no point in trying-this is 100% untrue and all of my personal experiences have proven this time and again to me. Most people have inhibitions that prevent them from being satisfied with any of their output as creative people- even those that have had some success-the hard thing is that SO MANY people are trying to create in isolation, away from those that could help them- that could teach them, that could unlock their own creativity, and then the creative people don't understand their own creativity either- so they assume that 'you either have it or you don't' since they can;t explain how to go about "being creative" so it must be a natural thing you are born with. I agree that YES- those there are many that just "have it" but many others have simply LEARNED how to see, how to hear, how to begin, how to CRAFT things into viable, satisfying creative endeavors.

B

Hiya Bryan.......so it's utter horse{censored} is it, in your opinion you mean? veil may have a great voice, I wouldn't know, never heard the person but in "my experience" many singers, musicians can't write music/songs/melodies whatever, they leave that side of things to people who can. I know this for a fact because it's the bulk of my income!

Someone maybe a brilliant motor mechanic who's life is totally immersed in cars like mine is in music, & yours no doubt.... doesn't necessarily mean this person will be a brilliant car sprayer!!...even though both skills are in the car trade they are 2 different skills altogether. My: "you've either got it or you aint" statement is not aimed at his general abilities, it's aimed at his self confest inability to come up with a satisfying enough melody!

Personally I've always had servere trouble reading music! it's been a major draw back. For some reason my brain can't take it in. So, using "reading music" as an example of; > rings true with me cos I aint got it!!!! So I leave the "writing it down on paper" side of things to those who can ..so no "in my opinion" it's not horse {censored} at all as you so elegantly put it.

PS I'm not the slightest bit offended:) ...even though I disagree with you, you make some good debatable points.

Peace.

DCC.

I reckon there's a bit of truth in both of the above.

On one hand some people unquestionably have something that others don't. Everyone has something that others don't.

But for example I used to write stuff I liked and recently had a 'songwriting block'. This stemmed partly from the fact I had completely lost faith in my skills, partly because I had become less naive in the musical sense having gone further into the theory (everything seemed to have lost its magic and be just another scale), and partly because I had stopped playing for fun and had become obsessed with getting somewhere. Now things have changed: I have stopped being obsessed and have decided to really take my time on stuff (after all I'm doing it for pleasure), I've tried playing my stuff to other people, not musicians - they are too competitive and analize things too much, but listeners, real listeners. The result was that most of them liked my stuff quite a bit and pointed out some really useful things more connected with descriptive sensations than with technique. And I also have noticed that if you play in front of someone you can sort of hear your stuff through their ears if you know them as a person. Well, that's my humble opinion, I hope that isn't horse{censored} too, but if it's wormpoo, well then that's another matter, amico mio....

Phil-

Well, I'm glad you aren't offended

I just don't understand why you bothered to post in this thread-You are basically telling us all that writing a melody is an innate thing that cannot be learned at all- I still think this is 100% crap-

And not being able to read music!? Come on man- every year countless 11 and 12 year olds pick up an instrument for the first time and learn how to read music over the next few years in their middle school orchestras- with 5 classes a week, 45 minutes each and little or NO individual instruction (group instruction) it is most definitely a LEARNED thing like taking French or Geometry. YES, some people are always going to be gifted with just about anything but if things weren't able to be learned, there would be no classes for anything, including artistic pursuits such as drawing or painting! If you can't read music, it is because you aren't really trying to pursue it. I submit that this is really the same thing. EVERYONE CAN WRITE A MELODY- I worked with inner city kids that can't concentrate on anything, but I had them creating melodies quite simply. are they 'good' melodies?

Well, IMO that is really where the problem lies- addin that layer of value judgement to everything and doubting the validity of one's creations are usually the problem- and then that is re-enforced by the philosophy that you are presenting, that it's really hopeless- you either "have it or you don't" and if you "don;t have it" then why pursue it further. My brother is a prime example, he plays the guitar, learns songs well, solos, can pick a song apart by ear- but when it comes to writing songs he always says "I can't write a song" and then he will noodle away at great sounding chord progressions etc.. and when I ask him why he doesn't turn one of them into a "song" he says "Well, it's only these chords here- they are easy to play and I know this other song has this same chord in it..."

WTF?

He still believes it's magic- that only the chosen few can turn a four chord progression into a song- that somehow every songwriter in history has escaped using the G major chord followed by a D? WHY? He knows that some of his favorite songs are simple to play, yet he thinks they are "good songs" so why when he writes something relatively simple does he feel that it isn't "good enough"?

I never stated that anyone can become the next Lennon/McCartney overnight as far as hearing melodies and arranging, - "Excellence" as you put it, is a value judgement and is going to vary in definition from person to person- I never brought up the idea of a "good or bad melody" because it is impossible to judge except from the personal standpoint (e.g. is "Twinkle Twinkle little star a GOOD melody? Why or why not? It is most definitely a SIMPLE melody.). Personal satisfaction is also individual, and you are right- Maybe veil is NEVER going to be happy with anything he/she writes! But I do submit that it all can be learned. all of it. The instinct may never really come, but the mechanics can be learned, techniques leaned and applied, collaborators and teachers found- there have been EXCELLENT suggestions in this thread about generating melodies, learning an instrument, things to read, things to try-

None of which require veil to be "born with it"

B

eh?!?! Let me put it another way:

You can either do it NATURALLY or you can't!

Don't remember ever saying: "writing a melody cannot be learned at all!!!" You need to read the posts properly Sir! Quote something!

Just because someone may be a great singer/musician, doesn't necessarily mean they will be able to write songs/melodys! Many musicians don't write, not because they can't but because they don't want to for many reasons, the main one being; they'd rather spend the time mastering their instument/voice! for now anyway.

So one should only reply if one agrees with the topic?

Please excuse my "misinterpretation" but with a statement like this one you have offered very little in the way of insight into the topic. "Youv'e got it or you ain't" really doesn't seem to say much of anything except that you either have this "talent" or you don't- which again, I submit that it doesn't help the original poster achieve his goals,or advance the discussion.

Perhaps it is your brevity that has confused the tone for me.

Again- EVERYONE CAN WRITE A FREAKING SONG! It's impossible not to be able to- we did it as children, making fun of people, rhyming things for fun, etc. etc.l.

Are they any GOOD? is it REAL SONGWRITING?

well, we've moved on to trhe next level then-

I don;t know anyone at all that plays an instrument seriously that can't write A SONG. My brother writes SONGS, but he discards them in their infancy because he doens't think they are any good.

of course you can "do it naturally or you can't" that applies to every single thing in life. Either you are naturally funny or you aren't, either you are naturally inclined to schoolwork, or you aren't, either you are naturally gifted with a football or you aren't- but someone that LEARNS those things can be as good or BETTER than the naturally gifted person. it's the "Hard work beats talent every time unless talent works hard" type of thing. Take writing for instance. i have a friend that is a brilliant writer, but he usually only writes a few pages of something and has a "good idea" for a story or he writes a chapter and then gets frustrated, bogged down- when the natural phase of his work passes and he is left with the 'hard work' phase of editing, re-writing, breaking the story down into smaller pieces for expanding the chapters- he just gives up. On the other hand I've read work by people that aren't "gifted" writers but they can put out page after page, following the advice of books and classes and writers groups. The thing with them is that then they have a complete story that can be edited and honed and pieces re-written over and over until the work is actually quite good! Who is the "better" writer? The guy that is brilliant but hasn't ever finished anything at all or the person that can finish a novel by hard work? The thing again about the second person is that they constantly improve as they do it over and over again- success breeds confidence and then confidence breeds more success.

The myth is that "brilliant writers" give birth to novels whole- with little editing and re-writing. I've seen this time and again in every creative field. The myth that "good artists" always produce genius work from their heads at every sitting. While this IS TRUE of some artists and creative people- it is NOT true of most people that create. There is a process- for some it is very natural, for others it is a learned thing- It's NEVER been proven to me that one is always superior to the other- it's great when things are innate and natural, but learning to create through a process is not only valid, it is necessary! if one wants to continue to be creative, at some point (writers block) the natural talent will have a lapse- it's the hard work and learned techniques that get you throuugh those points.

B