Need some advice...

This is my first post, I'm new here... I'm not a vocalist, but I was hoping I could find some good advice in here.

I am currently working with a singer. I think she is absolutely great, she has a very unique voice. I know she can absolutely sing, but there is a problem -- if I tell her to sing a Lady Gaga/Shakira/Madonna/etc song, she will sing it flawlessly and sound just like them. She can hit all the notes, it's really impressive. She can also imitate the punk style voice too (this is her background).

And that's all well and good, but I'm not looking for a gimmick who can sound "exactly like others".

When it comes time to singing her own work, she is completely lost. Her voice is all over the place, it takes too long to get a good take done. When we do, it's great! But it's usually after months, and her getting extremely frustrated, and a lot of careful editing... I've tried suggesting rewriting lyrics to songs she's familiar with, and the same problem.

Is there any way I could give her advice on how to perform better? I really believe in this girl, and the stuff we've done is wonderful. She's really down on herself, and I'm not a vocalist so I don't know what I can say to make her feel better.

Hmm....Interesting. Woody Allen made a movie called Zelig about this chameleon phenomenon!

This is not, it seems to me, a singing problem so much as an identity problem. She seems very comfortable falling in line, but not so much when it comes to setting course.

How about mixing the categories? Ask her to imitate Lucinda Williams or Amy Winehouse covering a Madonna song. Do Aretha's version of Kate Bush, etc.

Also, perhaps talk to her about the meaning of the songs. Perhaps a song with controversial content would generate a useful response? It might be hard to get her engaged with the kind of pop material you seem to be doing.

I think you might be on to something... I don't know that movie, but I'm going to check it out now. Maybe it'll spark something in her.

This project is her own, she's written for us for quite a few years now but for other singers. She has her own ideas, direction, writes her own stuff, and sometimes co-produces. That's the most confusing part, this is her stuff. It's not pop music, this project is experimental. We figured if she can sing other people's stuff, she should easily sing her own stuff.

Is this something that maybe has to do outside of singing? Maybe self-esteem or anxiety problems?

In the meantime I am going to suggest to her the exercise you suggested about mixing things up.

Thanks for the reply.

This is me, even now that I’m doing my own stuff too. I find it REALLY hard, and it feels like I’m going against everything automatic and instinctual, for me to NOT to try my best to sound just like the singer whose song I’m singing. Except unlike your friend, I don’t think I sound exactly like anyone I try and imitate, which has always really frustrated and disappointed me.

No matter what song I do, even if it’s by a man for goodness sake, I try and sound like ‘em. I can’t help it! Every now and then I’ll come across a song that I can somehow hear in my MIND a way for me to sing it that’s totally different, but that’s pretty rare. And some people I can sound like a lot easier than others…Kate Bush, Karen Carpenter, and certain others…but then there are the people I really WANT to be able to sing like and I can’t – Grace Slick, Ann Wilson from Heart, and so on.

I’ve also noticed my lifelong quest to sound like other people has left me with -

(a) AHUGE issue in terms of trying to identify my OWN individual sound, because I’m just not used to it or comfortable with it, and

(b) Problems in terms of my actual voice in relation to my singing ability. I never recorded myself early on, so never knew where I was going wrong, and also possibly I’ve developed habits that I now have to work really hard to undo, such as singing mostly in falsetto and really high, like Kate Bush, or singing only through my throat and in head voice ALL the time to sound like various people that I probably am not MEANT to sound like (based on my own voice type), and I didn’t realise I was doing this at the time (as I didn’t record myself) and so I never sort of…was able to “head it off at the pass” so to speak and develop PROPER singing habits.

Whoops. Lol.

Yes, it definitely is.

I always think, when I hear a singer I love and admire, that if they sounded like someone else, what'd be the point? What'd make them unique, you know? I like them FOR their difference. I need to believe that in myself too.

No worries, Grace! This is the beauty of imitation--you'll never get it exactly right, and this difference between your voice and the singer you're trying to imitate is precisely your originality. Only two things to remember: Don't imitate only one singer (in the sense that you're always trying to sound like this singer); don't try too hard to get it just right.

All this worry (not from you particularly) about originality is imho misplaced. As long as we don't deliberately try to suppress originality, we're good. We can't help but be original because we just are.

She basically needs to develop her own style. She needs to put down all of her inhibitions and just let her voice happen naturally. She needs to either isolate herself from being influenced or widen her influences, so much that no particular influence overshadow any others.

If you guys are working in a studio or recording space, then trying leaving her alone during tracking. I remember hearing that Steve Tyler from Aerosmith would force everyone out of the studio while he's doing his vocals. If its experimental music then you need to give her space to experiment.

No worries, Grace! This is the beauty of imitation--you'll never get it exactly right, and this difference between your voice and the singer you're trying to imitate is precisely your originality. Only two things to remember: Don't imitate only one singer (in the sense that you're always trying to sound like this singer); don't try too hard to get it just right. All this worry (not from you particularly) about originality is imho misplaced. As long as we don't deliberately try to suppress originality, we're good. We can't help but be original because we just are.

SO TRUE!!! :thu:

Yes this is what to do:

(Have a long talk over coffee) the studio will make her feel even

more susceptible to awkwardness and insecurity.

Then tell her to put the same amount of effort into her

own songs. She has to do this with determined repetition.

Worst case scenario:

Even if she has to imagine her songs came from

the same artists she copies. Eventually her mind will take over

and will come up with her own works (solely based on creativity)

of course but honestly you cannot expect a person with

zero background in writing awesome or catchy melodies

to come up with awesome or catchy melodies without

experience. Listening to good-great artists may be a start

but it shouldn't be the end.

Like Grace said, I too did the same thing.

My voice sounded like poop back up 10 years ago.

It was nasal, no chest voice and couldn't write for crap!

The difference was I stopped trying to emulate and started

being *me* -and this made all of the difference.

Now, I come up with awesome-catchy melodies but I just

don't finish them:facepalm: .....but that.....is another story

(Cue Conan The Barbarian Credits)

Think about this for a moment, k? You have an impressionable youth... She loves music and loves to be those artists (in her mind) The reason why is because those phrasings, melodies weren't written by her! Since someone did all the leg work the only thing she had to do was to mimic those artists. ^^^This isn't hard to do. But get her in a room with her own material (only because she relies on those artists for tunes) she won't be able to come up with anything on her own. Yes this is what to do: (Have a long talk over coffee) the studio will make her feel even more susceptible to awkwardness and insecurity. Then tell her to put the same amount of effort into her own songs. She has to do this with determined repetition. Worst case scenario: Even if she has to imagine her songs came from the same artists she copies. Eventually her mind will take over and will come up with her own works (solely based on creativity) of course but honestly you cannot expect a person with zero background in writing awesome or catchy melodies to come up with awesome or catchy melodies without experience. Listening to good-great artists may be a start but it shouldn't be the end. Like Grace said, I too did the same thing. My voice sounded like poop back up 10 years ago. It was nasal, no chest voice and couldn't write for crap! The difference was I stopped trying to emulate and started being *me* -and this made all of the difference. Now, I come up with awesome-catchy melodies but I just don't finish them:facepalm: .....but that.....is another story (Cue Conan The Barbarian Credits)

Thank you for this reply I think the poster "davie" had it spot on about developing her identity...

She is far from an impressionable youth (she is in her 20s), and no she does not idolize those artists at all I don't think. I had a talk with her, and she said she does have anxiety problems in general but she is afraid of failing because she feels since she's writing it, etc that if it fails, it'll be entirely her fault. She's also skilled writer as I said she's written for us before but other singers have done those vocals. She comes from a different type of musical background (indie rock, metal and punk) but wanted something new. Right now she has an album written and composed for us to work with. We're working on arrangement, but we're arranging it around her voice. The major obstacle right now is that we're having a difficult time arranging when she can't get her vocals down.

So, now that I understand her a bit more, we seemed to have figured a way around it by having her lay down a rough vocal track, but creating the song and then having her resing it so she can maybe have a better idea or confidence or motivation. Hopefully it works, we're back working on it next week.

Thanks everybody for the advice.