ChristianRock

ill let people who are honestly interested in the bible and its words/teaching to make that decision for themselves, from the context, not from some half believer or some religious freak. www.prayforbush.com No! I will use The Force against them! I'm forcing people! See!!!! So you already judged me a half-believer? Is there such a thing? Is that like being half pregnant?

sure there is I can connect an EEG to the gravid belly during the 7th month and wait for the alpha spikes- that is all- until then there have been NO action potentials fired through the neocortex and no limbic feedback to provide any sort of pattern or structure to the neural map which defines who you are going to be and how you sort and store information in your brain Just before the brain isn't yet fully functional, it doesn't mean that it's not a person yet. Like I said, you accept that as being the line divider, to other people it's not that clear.

If you vote on basis of abortion, would you vote for this guy? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GV_ypVdgUF8 I would not vote for the 1999 McCain. We should all be allowed to see the light, so to say

gotta love it how you guys take things out of context.... (scripturally and historically) it says NOTHING about insuring their success or policies, or supporting the government in anyway. it is praying CONCERNING them so that the preaching work can continue peacefully. (and notice, for ALL men. Yes, lets pray for ALL men so that they can learn about god.. yes, its THAT simple.) i suggest that you read, not only THAT verse, but the rest of the verses in that chapter, the few preceding it, and while you are at it, the rest of the Bible... And do you have any idea about what I pray (or what those kids were praying)? You're just trolling. Regarding that verse, I did not take it out of context. The context is very clear.

I thought the bible was written way before there even were governments... The earliest written hebrew documents are from about 2000BC - about the time of King David. Of course there might have been written documents before that, but we don't know when they started writing in the hebrew culture. Government already existed when the earliest scriptures were written down.

Oh, CR, I see - there's a difference between being Evangelical, and evangelising. Ooops! Evangelist is a person that is appointed/recognized by the church as someone who will go and preach to people (like Billy Graham - he is an evangelist).

that people don't generally know or accept this fact is entirely because they spent to much time making fun of nerds instead of listening to them there is no abortion debate- there are a few misguided folks who cling to a modern religious dogma- there is no admonitions against abortion in the bible- until modern times abortions were considered nothing but female menstrual hygiene! they were performed primarily with a stick porous wood like elm and turpentine- There's a bit of information and a lot of misinformation in that post. All I'm gonna say, if it was that obvious, there would be a clear line between a fetus and a baby, and there isn't one.

yeah, youre pretty funnny So let's get it straight. You think that me voting for a pro-life candidate, is forcing my views upon you. Right or wrong?

oh my, where does the good book say THIS, pray tell? Christians, by the very nature of what jesus said, should stay OUT of politics. Why werent they interceding for the UN, or the world in general? Why were they interceding for other humans AT ALL? Do you even have a bible? Or are you trying to stir up trouble? Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 1 Timothy 2:1-2 Fact is, you had children brainwashed into praying for George W. bush -- as if he is their saviour or something. At least you didn't say praying to Bush like a lot of people did. As to why, it's the same reason why I'll pray for Obama if he's elected. It's something that is recommended in the bible for christians to do, to pray for the people that we have in government. See i think many christians dont realize that when Jesus came on the scene he kind of killed the whole "one nation blessed by god" thing, took the kingdom away from Israel, and it became a SPIRITUAL nation. When this happened, the opportunity was given for EVERYONE to be a part of it, not just the jews. therefore, nationalism is pretty much totally wrong in a christian faith because it puts one nation (where a christian might exist) above another (where another christian might exist) Jesus Doctrine extolls equality, and the spreading of his message across the ENTIRE world. NO ONE NATION IS BLESSED BY GOD ANYMORE. get it through your heads, so-called christians... you are walking contradictions. Again, read the scripture at the top of this post. I fail to see how praying for our people in government makes me a "one nation rules the world" kind of guy. I'm just praying that God will guide them and bless them and protect our nation. I do happen to pray for other nations as well, especially since I just live here, wasn't born here. But perhaps you will show me the evil of my ways. answer this: why did they need a cardboard cutout of GWB in front of them whilst they prayed? You don't need one.

That's not the intent of the filmmaker, in my opinion. Why fault the film for others' reactions? That's like my faulting the Bible for the Westboro Baptist Church. Well I saw enough of the movie that I believe it was the intention of the filmmaker to portray what was going on through her own interpretation of it. It's the way I saw it.

my belief is that a baby exists upon conception. It is a belief that is a religious one, that i feel is based on the Bible. however, scientifically there is (as of yet) no way to really prove when life begins, no? so how can you possibly force this belief upon people who dont share your view of god? Again you mention this force. Is it The Force? Or a Magnetic Force that I'm using against the supposed weaklings that I'm supposedly oppressing? Or what kind of force is it?

CR is a self-proclaimed evangelist (I'm not criticizing, just reminding). Arguing is going to be futility 101, folks. Evangelical. I think that's the word you were looking for.

I see where you are coming from. This would be a different thread, then, because I think it's a technical point on Bible interpretation rather than a rational point. Right, and I just brought it up because when I say "evangelical christians don't pray to people, just to God" someone else might say "wait, I saw a catholic church with an image of a person and people were praying to that person, I could hear them". It was for clarification.

...but I'm just trying to explain to you that if you go through life expressing these beliefs of yours, people will be offended. You don't have to tell me that, I know that already. And it's ok, I'm not trying to win a popularity contest. Now I don't think it's fair to call christians nasty names because people don't agree with them, and I'm just trying to make that case. Ultimately though, if people want to continue doing that, it's not going to ruin my day.

Last time we had a thread that went this way, Paulo had horrendous menstrual cramps and Gus had to rush to the store to buy a bottle of Tylenol and a supa-size pack of Maxi Pads. Maybe we should stop now before The Moderator Summoning Ritual is complete? You're no fun!

That's not true, CR. Anyone, regardless of the religion they subscribe to, is capable of being materialistic, and does not understand, appreciate and/or respect the greater truth. I guarantee you there are people of your faith who prayed to win a football game, or the lotto. There's a point where dogma becomes irrelevant and "religion", or more precisely "God", transcends the shackles of the human capability to comprehend. I was making a distinction between interceding to God in someone's favor (I've seen people making a board with people's pictures so they wouldn't forget who they are praying for), and praying to a person instead of God. I think everybody knows catholics pray to people, not just God. Just not living people like Bush, they have to be Rome-approved saints. I know catholics who only pray to God, by the way, and in that way they are more in line with the bible. But catholic doctrine does teach that people can and should be encouraged to pray to Mary and the saints. I'm not trying to pick a fight here, just pointing out the differences between the Roman Catholic church and the evangelical churches. Evangelical churches were portrayed in "Jesus Camp", not catholic churches.

he doesn't really think that....thats just the only argument they have against pro-choice people. being pro-choice doesn't me you'll actually get pregnant with the intent to have an abortion......it just means that if a woman gets pregnant, she has the choice to do whats right for her. You fight for the woman's right, I fight for the baby's right. That's our difference. ChristianRock, this question is for you. you talk about moral, but was it moral for Sarah Palins daughter to get pregnant out of wedlock let alone be having sex out of it. you evangelist are the first to call everyone other than you Godless, but when one of your own does something not to the standards you wanna hold us to you are quick to defend them. Last I checked, Palin's daughter isn't running for anything, and is free to make her own choices. What does this have to do with anything? I'm not a christian because I don't make mistakes. I've made plenty, and I've hurt a lot of people. I'm a Christian because I came to Jesus and made him my Lord and was forgiven of my mistakes. Which I still do make. Hopefully not as much as before, but certainly I still make mistakes.

CR: RE: the "worshipping" of George W. Bush, I don't think for a second it was the intent of the documentary to make it look like children were worshipping President Bush. The children were praying over and sending their blessings to Bush. Well, you got that, but most people didn't - Bill Maher commented on this, a lot of the media did at the time, and that was one of the reasons that I didn't even want to see it at first. Even some dude here in this thread said he had biblical training as proof that this is what they were doing...

Um, guess what: even other right-wing types are starting to do the same thing. Let us say nothing about the Christian religion as a whole: it is how Christianity has coupled itself into politics in America. In order to be Christian, do you *have* to oppose homosexuality and abortion? Heck, in order to be Christian, do you *have* to be Republican? No, you don't have to. Yet the populist pundits are coming damn close to stating such things. James Dobson's hysterical letter on a future America with Obama is a classic point. What's "Christian" about this letter? Heck, what's "family" about this letter? This is fearmongering, plain and simple -- 100% apocalyptic politics. There are kinder and gentler Christian religions, even fundie ones, out there -- I actually think that the influence of Dobson dogma is starting to die. However, dislike of American Christianity will continue until Christian politics -- especially the anti-intellectual type, and the type too tied to rural WASP identity politics instead of the Bible -- fades to the background. No you certainly don't have to be a republican. If democrats started picking up biblical values, they'd get more of the evangelical vote as well. But I don't think they'd want that because they'd lose a ton of secular votes. Obama has said on record that on the first day in office he wants to sign up the Freedom of Choice act which effectively takes away what little the states have to say about abortion, and it's very clear he will appoint ACLU-linked people to the Supreme Court. So obviously regardless of what Dobson says or doesn't say (I don't have time to read a letter that big when I already made my mind about the subject), I also have an idea of how an Obama administration will set back Christian values in society. I happen to want to vote against such thing, I believe it's my democratic right, isn't it?

can you please tell me how they werent? because by my bible training i have i think there is no way that ISNT worship:wave: Why do you say they were? Because they were kneeled down by the Bush image? They were talking to God, who is a spirit and not an image, and they were interceding for our government, as all Christians should do. And any christian knows that we pray go God and not to things. I call BS on you having bible training, unless it's catholic training (they make tons of images and will pray to anything. Sorry if some here are catholics, but it's true... there's some catholic churches where people get into where they have literally hundreds of Rome-approved images of saints, and people pray to each and every one of them).

Now here is where our conversations generally degenerate, because you don't listen. I'm not suggesting that you have a say in the matter (if so, we all appreciate that you post to this forum). I'm saying that you express your belief that we WILL burn in hell, which (last I looked) isn't generally the nicest way to spend eternity. So, you imply that you're not judgemental, and at the same time you say that we will be judged as evil and burn in hell. This is just offensive to many people - and the point really isn't whether you agree with that, but that you try to understand why this is so. Well I have a belief that people choose where they will go. And I have the hope that everybody I talk to will eventually reach out to God's extended hand, even if it's just before their last breath, and even if it's because they thought "well I guess I have absolutely nothing to lose". Still, if it's an opinion that doesn't get forced on anyone, I don't think anyone should be offended. All religion would have to be prohibited if that was the case (and people would be offended at that idea, too). btw - now that I really learned to appreciate your sense of humor underlined in your comments, between the points you make, I actually look forward to having a conversation with you. Well, someone might believe, for instance, that because I am of Jewish background, I am evil, and should be put in a concentration camp. They may have no ability to enforce this view, but in and of itself, the belief is offensive. Beliefs can be offensive to other people, and you don't seem to acknowledge that because yours has the disclaimer, 'I'm Jesus, and I approve of this message'. I'm only commenting on what you have said. If I believed that *I* had to do you harm for whatever reason I believed you deserved it, then you would be completely right in saying I should have no right to express such belief. It's not the case though, I'm sure you can see that. According to the bible, I'm supposed to be nice and if possible serve and help those who are unbelievers, and be friends with them, so that they will see the love of Christ, and so that people won't have the wrong idea of who God is. If what I was saying was that I wish certain people to go to hell, that would be offensive too. But as I said above, I don't wish that anyone goes to hell. I know you'll say, "well but you say anyone who doesn't agree with you goes to hell and that's offensive". I'm not the originator of the belief, so it's not me or christians you'd be disagreeing with - I believe it's God in human form who gave us this doctrine. So he would be the one to come up to and say "hey, I don't agree that I have to agree with you to go to heaven". Who knows, it might be the start of a good conversation

Complete and total cop-out response. If given the chance? You have to realize that. What about Jesus Camp turned your stomach? There was no leading. There were no interviews. It was purely documentation. What about that was so reprehensibly left-leaning? How about misleading the vieweres into thinking the children were worshiping Bush? Just to give one example. The whole thing was assembled in a way to make sure it gets its point across. And about stereotyping...assumption is not stereotype. I had asked you if you saw the film a few posts ago. You didn't say you had, but instead went on to suggest reasons why you wouldn't see it. That was deliberately misleading on your end. Well that was a LONG time ago wasn't it? But I'm sorry if you felt misled. I didn't even remember when we had this conversation a while back. I wasn't really intending to see it but I ended up seeing a part of it and also some youtube bits (the whole thing is also on youtube, or at least was). I was mad because there are a lot of things that were shown that I know were not the reality of the place. Also, the woman who led the camp was completely misguided in some things she said, like calling opposing religions as "enemies". Even the bible doesn't say that - it says our enemies are not people but spiritual beings. She didn't make that clear (or it was edited out). Not that it really matters. We're only debating ideas here...not ourselves as individuals. I think all of this is healthy! And i luvvs the CR. (Also CR, I'm not uninformed, thnx) You were uninformed about Bush not doing anything to revert Roe vs. Wade. He has done what he can - through the legal means. I don't think that's something anyone who is pro-life has overlooked, even if christians can also be critical of him at times. And yeah, I the akliner as well!

Well, I hope that you stay healthy. the worst I would wish on you is that you would learn to think more analytically about some of the things that you say, and also what effect they might have on other people. No one really likes the implication that they are going to burn in hell....even if they are. Yeah but it's a belief, not a sentence. I'm not sending anyone to hell. I'm not the one who determines whether people will go to hell or not, and I'm not even the one who determines whether there is a hell or not. Reality exists regardless of people's beliefs, and if hell does exist, it will exists regardless of whether you and I believe in it or not. So I can't see how you can be offended by someone else's belief. You also should not equate born again, bible thumping, evangelical christianity with christianity in general. When someone says something negative about YOUR brand of christianity, they are not necessarily also imputing this to more nuanced versions of what it is to be a christian, or what it means to interpret the bible. Throughout this thread I've identified myself as an evangelical christian for that reason. But I'm not sure why you're bringing this up.

When a secular genius says the word "force," they really mean "mention." A lot of times, they also mean "you force your views on me when you vote according to them" - as if that wasn't exactly why democracy is needed - to vote on the candidate of the majority. That is basically what the complain about evangelicals and the 2004 elections can be summed up as.

I'm pretty sure that I'm not going to hell. It's way too full of Catholic priests for there to be any room for me. I hear they're expanding.