Can I use a Floyd locking nut with a Kahler Tremelo?

[Peekaboo Fuzzy]

I have my heart set on new Kahler 2200 series tremelo system which are made for Les Paul style stud mount bridges. Besides hearing good things about Kahler quality and design, I like the fact that there is less routing needed to put on a Les Paul and the model really is specifically designed for a carved top guitar like a Les Paul. My one pet peve is that the Kahler locking nut is located "behind" the nut. I wanted to ask all of you floating tremelo gurus if using a Floyd locking nut with a Kahler Tremelo would work fine? Kind of like taking the best of the two designs and putting them together into one hybrid system. Do you guys like this idea? Tell me why you think this is a good or bad idea. Thanks!

[Milkman1]

Yes, in fact it's a damned good idea.

 

As you have noted, the biggest weakness of Kahler's designs is the nut.

 

I've used Kahler Pros and they're as smooth a trem as you will find anywhere.

 

The FR nut is a much better idea. the two work well together.

[_pete_]

It'll work fine and probably stay in tune better than it would with the Kahler locking nut.

[bubkus_jones]

The Floyd Rose nut style is superior to the Kahler behind-the-nut design, however, when set up properly and combined with a good quality, properly cut nut, it (the Kahler) can stay in tune almost as well. I use a Kahler "Pro" nut, which is the lever nut.

 

 

My biggest pet peeve with the Kahler design is the other end, with the little hook/claw things that you put the ball end of the string into. One good dive with that and the balls could shift, throwing off the tuning (that was one of the problems Floyd Rose found with Fender's vibratos).

 

If they were to incorporate a way to secure the ball end in there, say, by having a small peg in the sadde that you can fit the ball onto, to keep it from shifting, that would be better.

[Peekaboo Fuzzy]

Thanks for your replies guys. I had a hunch it would work. Tell me, bubkus_jones, do you still prefer Kahlers to Floyds despite the "hook/claw design" and the potential pitfalls it may cause in regards to the tuning stability you mentioned? I'm just curious, because I wouldn't be opposed to installing a Floyd as an alternative, I just thought that the Kahler would be better suited for the Les Paul with less routing required. In your over all experience would you say that the possibility of going out of tune with a Floyd or Kahler are about equal? Or is a Floyd more likely to stay in tune better? I'm leaning towards the Kahler because I have heard that they are more durable, more solid metals are used, and little or no pitting issues. Is that true?

[Peekaboo Fuzzy]

Bump.

[H2Shredder]

You can ABSOLUTELY Use a Floyd nut with a Kahler tremolo system.

[Edward Yawn]

As you have noted, the biggest weakness of Kahler's designs is the nut.

 

There is no weakness at all. I have a Kahler 2310 flat-mount bridge on my custom-made Jackson Soloist and a Kahler Standard Stringlock behind a bone nut and not only is it super stable but it sounds much better too. The string energy is transfered to the guitar body by bone and not by metal, like with the Floyd Rose locking nut. Plus you have the option of using different nut materials with the Kahler Stringlock. My Kahler equipped Soloist stays in tune just as well as my Floyd Rose equipped Kelly.

 

I have even seen Floyd Rose equipped guitars with a Kahler Stringlock behind an ordinary nut and in fact the luthier Neal Moser is a big fan of this design.

 

 

Here's my guitar with a black phenolic nut and a Kahler Standard Stringlock:

 

 

 

Here with a white bone nut and a Kahler Deluxe Stringlock:

 

 

 

 

And finally: a white bone nut with a Kahler Standard Stringlock:

 

[peavey_impact]

I've tried to live with the Kahler behind-the-nut locks. Bottom line for me is that they don't EVEN COMPARE to a locked Floyd. Period.

 

And whammy is a HUGE part of my playing style; so I know what works and doesnt work.

[Edward Yawn]

 

Originally posted by peavey_impact I've tried to live with the Kahler behind-the-nut locks. Bottom line for me is that they don't EVEN COMPARE to a locked Floyd.

 

 

Note: "for you". For me the Kahler behind the nut lock works great, is super stable and gives much better tone. I have never had any tuning stability issues with my Kahler equipped Soloist. Bone transferes string energy much better than metal.

 

The luthier Neal Moser even installs Kahler Stringlocks behind an ordinary nut on many of his Floyd Rose equipped guitars. He has been building guitars for decades and he is a big fan of the Kahler Stringlock design. So I am not the only one who likes this design and who sees the advantages.

[Peekaboo Fuzzy]

Man H2shredder that Jackson is Sweeeeeet. That is the darkest ebony fingerboard I have ever seen!

 

So Moser guitars does it the other way around. Go figure. I wonder why he likes the main apparatus of the Floyd system better? It would be interesting to know. My only fear with installing a Kahler is that if the company doesn't generate enough business now and can't compete (unlike in the 80's when they were neck and neck with Floyds-even prefered in many cases) I might be stuck without access to newer parts. Also, the resale value might be lower if I decide to ever sell, which I'm hoping I won't.

[Peekaboo Fuzzy]

Sorry I meant to address Edward Yawn about the Jackson custom Soloist. Edward, that is one of the nicest looking Jacksons I have ever seen, andI have only seen the headstock and part of the neck! Nice dark ebony fingerboard.

[Edward Yawn]

 

Originally posted by Peekaboo Fuzzy Sorry I meant to address Edward Yawn about the Jackson custom Soloist. Edward, that is one of the nicest looking Jacksons I have ever seen, andI have only seen the headstock and part of the neck! Nice dark ebony fingerboard.

 

 

Thanks...and in that case why not take a look at the pictures of the whole guitar I posted in my first thread:

 

http://tinyurl.com/h3sdv

[bubkus_jones]

 

Originally posted by Peekaboo Fuzzy Thanks for your replies guys. I had a hunch it would work. Tell me, bubkus_jones, do you still prefer Kahlers to Floyds despite the "hook/claw design" and the potential pitfalls it may cause in regards to the tuning stability you mentioned? I'm just curious, because I wouldn't be opposed to installing a Floyd as an alternative, I just thought that the Kahler would be better suited for the Les Paul with less routing required. In your over all experience would you say that the possibility of going out of tune with a Floyd or Kahler are about equal? Or is a Floyd more likely to stay in tune better? I'm leaning towards the Kahler because I have heard that they are more durable, more solid metals are used, and little or no pitting issues. Is that true?

 

 

I generally like the Floyd design better. Clamping the strings at both ends just makes more sense, to me. The Kahler design is, in my experience a lot like the single-locking Floyd used in the 80's. The kahler is made with much better materials and with more attention to detail, though.

 

For what you want, unless you can find one of the rare Les Paul Floyds, a Kahler will be better for you, because it will require much less wood removal.

 

As far as going out of tune, both systems have been used by whammy abusers throughout the years.

 

 

 

The luthier Neal Moser even installs Kahler Stringlocks behind an ordinary nut on many of his Floyd Rose equipped guitars. He has been building guitars for decades and he is a big fan of the Kahler Stringlock design. So I am not the only one who likes this design and who sees the advantages.

 

 

George Lynch also uses the Floyd w/Kahler nut system.

 

A lot of people use a Floyd nut with a Kahler. A lot of people use a straight Floyd system. A lot of people use a Floyd without a stringlock of any kind, prefering a normal nut and locking tuners.

 

As far as the tone being "better", most Floyd/Kahler users generally play in the hard rock/metal styles where distortion is in abundance. The amount of a difference the nut would make is generally insignificant at that point. Even less if you throw on a couple pedals.

[peavey_impact]

 

Originally posted by bubkus_jones As far as the tone being "better", most Floyd/Kahler users generally play in the hard rock/metal styles where distortion is in abundance. The amount of a difference the nut would make is generally insignificant at that point. Even less if you throw on a couple pedals.

 

 

I agree

[Peekaboo Fuzzy]

Thanks bubkus_jones and peavey_impact. Your obvious experience and wisdom on the subject is a big help. Do you think I should take the plunge and put the Kahler 2200 series Tremelo on my Les Paul or should I wait? How much of a chance is there that the installation could be botched? Or is it easy to do by an experienced luthier? Would a luthier have an easier time placing and installing the Kahler than the Floyd in your opinions due to the smaller chunk of wood that needs to be removed? I have to say I'm a little apprehensive about it, but then again I will never know unless I try right? My only reservations about the Kahler tremelos is that they have been out of circulation for so long, that perhaps the Floyds are more in the current "cannon" of working luthiers. What would you guys do?

[Dougy]

Originally posted by Edward Yawn .......bone nut .......

 

 

Uh-huh-huh-huh. Uh-huh-huh-huh. 'Bone Nut'. Uh-huh-huh.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now that I've gotten over the Beavis & Butt-Head level hilarity of it, what kind of bones do they make them from?

[Edward Yawn]

 

what kind of bones do they make them from?

 

 

Cow bone I think.

[bubkus_jones]

 

Originally posted by Peekaboo Fuzzy Thanks bubkus_jones and peavey_impact. Your obvious experience and wisdom on the subject is a big help. Do you think I should take the plunge and put the Kahler 2200 series Tremelo on my Les Paul or should I wait? How much of a chance is there that the installation could be botched? Or is it easy to do by an experienced luthier? Would a luthier have an easier time placing and installing the Kahler than the Floyd in your opinions due to the smaller chunk of wood that needs to be removed? I have to say I'm a little apprehensive about it, but then again I will never know unless I try right? My only reservations about the Kahler tremelos is that they have been out of circulation for so long, that perhaps the Floyds are more in the current "cannon" of working luthiers. What would you guys do?

 

 

You could always look on ebay for a used one, and buy a repair kit and replace any parts necessary. It should come out cheaper than buying a new one. Of course, you'd have to do the repairs. yourself, so it may be worthwhile to spend the money on a new one.

 

As far as installing them, Kahler has routing templates available for their bridges, and all you need to do is line it up with your existing bridge posts.

[ranalli]

 

Originally posted by Milkman1 Yes, in fact it's a damned good idea. As you have noted, the biggest weakness of Kahler's designs is the nut. I've used Kahler Pros and they're as smooth a trem as you will find anywhere. The FR nut is a much better idea. the two work well together.

 

 

 

Exactly.

 

 

I think Kahlers are cool....but putting the locking nut BEHIND the regular nut is silly and can affect tuning stability.

 

 

Definitely go with a FR nut setup as your single nut if you can.

[ghastlyone]

there are lots of nice old japanese charvels with the shitty behind the nut locks and the non-locking floyd bridges... so sad

 

to Floyd's nuts

[Edward Yawn]

Originally posted by ghastlyone there are lots of nice old japanese charvels with the shitty behind the nut locks and the non-locking floyd bridges... so sad to Floyd's nuts

 

There's nothing shitty about behind the nut locks. To me Floyd nuts sound very shitty. Metal on metal...yuck. With the behind the nut lock design you get the tonal advantage of a bone nut and the convenience of a stringlock. Works great. Never had a single problem with mine.

[hoerni]

Originally posted by Edward Yawn There's nothing shitty about behind the nut locks. To me Floyd nuts sound very shitty. Metal on metal...yuck. With the behind the nut lock design you get the tonal advantage of a bone nut and the convenience of a stringlock. Works great. Never had a single problem with mine.

 

And just how do you feel about those metal frets? Or do you only play open strings?

 

I'm suspicious that there are many noticeable differences between a bone, plastic or metal nut (especially in anything other than the open position).

 

From a tuning stability, I would think the lock behind the nut would give more problems than the FR system. There is that extract little bit of string to grab and cause problems. Of course, from an installation point of view it would be nicer to not have to file out the whole nut area.

 

I'm guessing that Kahler went with the behind the nut system simpley to avoid a FR patent. They were supposedly known for doing that kind of legal manuevering during their later years (with the Spyder, etc).

[TheReaper92]

Haha I know this is hella old but,The KAHLER IS BETTER!!!!! Plus Kahler makes a lokcing nut like the Floyd Rose one but it is smaller and more compact. Essentially better.

[goldsparkletop]

I'm surprised no one has pointed this out, but installing a standard Floyd locking nut involves drilling much bigger holes that a Kahler behind the nut system. Since Les Pauls are notoriously weak where the neck meets the headstock anyway, I would seriously consider whether I really wanted to drill those bigger holes into the neck/headstock joint of my Les Paul.

 

Personally, I'd do the Kahler behind the nut. Yes, a Floyd nut should maintain slightly better tuning in theory, but I don't know if it'd really be that noticeable on a guitar with a good nut. Also, a Floyd nut is not very adjustable as far as individual string height; make darn sure you get a Floyd nut that perfectly matches your fretboard radius or you may end up with horrible action.

 

If you do decide to get a Floyd style nut, try to find the Floyd style nut that is made by Kahler...these Floyd copies didn't require drilling as big of holes as the true Floyd nuts (or at least the ones made in the early 90's didn't).