christ, I suck at double bass

[Kingnome]

Originally posted by guitarizt I need some picks that I can't find at any local stores too (jazz IIIs).

Well listen, I'll do what I can for your drumming career, but for guitar stuff, you're on your own. I have my own guitar problems !!

[Hamburgermilk]

Here's what you can do to strengthen your muscles. Start out by playing some normal beats that you know. Then play those same beats using only your left foot. See how fast you can go with it. Play the beat untill your left foot stops working(ha). Then work on the faster 16th note basss drum hits(rapid fire) alternating your feet. You may want to work on the very quick bass drum double hit( dada Ka) alternating your starting foot. After that, work on slower beats..but varying your feet. For example don't just go R L R L R L R L...play R L R R L R L L(all even...sounds the same as R L R L) see how even you can get those to sound. At the end of your double bass workout, play (rapid fire bass) as fast as you can for as long as you can.....untill your legs hurt and you are out of breath!

[BombRusty]

yes the key is to practice a lot to work out your muscles. do what the other guys were saying by really tightening the springs down and working hard on keeping your heel down. doing that helps me even though i play heel up still.

also if you sit down at work or school or whatever practice just on the floor by stretching your muscles with your heel down. you know what i mean? get in the habit of doing it a lot.

[Chabo]

Last week I was yelled at at camp for tapping my feet too loudly... I had steel-toes on.

[WorshipMetallica]

wow... thanks

I've never gotten so much help in my life...


oh yeah and Kingnome, I don't need lessons, I already know how to 'do the math', I've been playing guitar for 5 years


thanks again everyone

god I love you all

[elimin8r]

i don't know if it's just me but i always play with my heels down, it's what i started out learning to play with and it's harder for me to play heels up than heels down..

[vanlatte]

Originally posted by Fafnir777 Playing heel up allows you to get away with having weaker leg muscles. Because you are raising your foot, instead of keeping it down, the front of your leg doesn't get built up as well as the calf does. To be able to really "fly" on the double bass, you need to be able to play fairly fast in the heels down position. Once you can get going fast in heels down, you'll be able to go fast in the heel up position. Tim

This is interesting to me, as my instructor is telling me the exact opposite (i.e. play heel up, use your leg as opposed to just your foot)

Granted, this is for single pedal only and it may differ, but one of the things we have been working on is getting away from playing heel down, because it is slowing me down and causing undue fatigue. I watch my instructor play heel up and his foot is just a blur, he plays doubles and triples as fast as anyone I have heard on double bass. Well, I do not listen to death metal or anything so I am sure there are those that can go much faster with two pedals, but my point is I have been shown right before my very eyes the benefit to playing heel up.

Not that I can do it yet, I still struggle with it. Sometimes I get "in the pocket" and I do alright, other times I wonder if my leg has been detatched from my friggen body.

This makes me think I should experiment with both styles and see what works best for me.

V.

EDIT: Ack, I may have read you wrong, Fafnir, are you saying its better to get good at heel down, which will in turn improve playing heel up??

[rumblebelly]

Originally posted by vanlatte This is interesting to me, as my instructor is telling me the exact opposite (i.e. play heel up, use your leg as opposed to just your foot) Granted, this is for single pedal only and it may differ, but one of the things we have been working on is getting away from playing heel down, because it is slowing me down and causing undue fatigue. I watch my instructor play heel up and his foot is just a blur, he plays doubles and triples as fast as anyone I have heard on double bass. Well, I do not listen to death metal or anything so I am sure there are those that can go much faster with two pedals, but my point is I have been shown right before my very eyes the benefit to playing heel up. Not that I can do it yet, I still struggle with it. Sometimes I get "in the pocket" and I do alright, other times I wonder if my leg has been detatched from my friggen body. This makes me think I should experiment with both styles and see what works best for me. V. EDIT: Ack, I may have read you wrong, Fafnir, are you saying its better to get good at heel down, which will in turn improve playing heel up??

Your instructor seems like a pretty narrow minded dude. I play a single and I play heel down most of the time. Either way works but learning both well is probably gonna give you the most benefits.
Wanna see a fast single pedal heel down player, check out this lesson. Go to the building bass drum strength digivent.
http://www.digevent.com/events/consumer/music/drumbeat/archives.asp

[Chabo]

It'd be good to learn heel-down, you'll be all the faster when you decide to switch over to heel-up. Besides, there are some people who can play fast heel-down, it all depends on what you decide you want to do later. At first I could only play solid 16ths with a double pedal if I wanted them to sound at all in time, but now I can do it only heel-down cause that's what I've worked on. Heel-up sounds bad.

[Hamburgermilk]

Don't learn heel down...you down play with your wrists stationary do you....why would you want to do it with your feet? Heel up minimizes the stress and increases speed beacuse your leg and foot is moving. Playing heel down would increase you ankle strength..so i guess that makes it a good exercise..but don't forget about your leg...your ankle is the speed and your leg is the power.

[rumblebelly]

Don't learn heel down? Sounds like bad advice. Ask any pro and they'll tell you to use what works. Better yet, they say get good a both. I think this has been beaten to death but I think it's widely accepted that heel down is just as effective as heel up. Also, comparing ankels to wrists is rather...odd.

BTW Hamburger, I get more than enough power heel down. I broke the batter head on my kick a couple of weeks ago playing heel down. Go figure...


Check out that link I posted. Dave Hall can play heel down with one foot better than some drummers I've seen with two feet.

[vanlatte]

Originally posted by rumblebelly Your instructor seems like a pretty narrow minded dude. I play a single and I play heel down most of the time. Either way works but learning both well is probably gonna give you the most benefits. Wanna see a fast single pedal heel down player, check out this lesson. Go to the building bass drum strength digivent. http://www.digevent.com/events/consumer/music/drumbeat/archives.asp

Well if you knew him you would see he is anything BUT narrow minded

I am working on both, but with the emphasis on heel up. For me it seems to work better, I think he realized that so that is the metheod we are concentrating on now. For whatever reason, heel up, for me personally, just feels better, I have more control and speed then when I play heel down. So its my preference. Sometimes I play heel down. But when I need speed, I used my leg (heel up).

Not to say that either one is right or wrong, everyone needs to experiment and find out what works best for them. Same argument could be made for traditional vs. matched grip.

V.

[rumblebelly]

Originally posted by vanlatte Well if you knew him you would see he is anything BUT narrow minded I am working on both, but with the emphasis on heel up. For me it seems to work better, I think he realized that so that is the metheod we are concentrating on now. V.

Whew, I was beginning to wonder about your instructor because I didn't know the history of your situation. Good luck!

[vanlatte]

Originally posted by rumblebelly Whew, I was beginning to wonder about your instructor because I didn't know the history of your situation. Good luck!

Yea, I could see how it might be construed that way, but hes a great guy that gives me the freedom to explore the areas I want to, without letting me drift off into nothingness Thats a good trait to have in a teacher, too much in either direction (i.e. no disipline or too much) could make for a lot of wasted time.


Neither of us are the type to say "There is only one way to do this" about anything. Which gets us in to trouble sometimes but hey, us drummers ARE the coolest members of the band so we are expected to be a little off the wall

V.

[Fafnir777]

Originally posted by vanlatte This is interesting to me, as my instructor is telling me the exact opposite (i.e. play heel up, use your leg as opposed to just your foot) Granted, this is for single pedal only and it may differ, but one of the things we have been working on is getting away from playing heel down, because it is slowing me down and causing undue fatigue. I watch my instructor play heel up and his foot is just a blur, he plays doubles and triples as fast as anyone I have heard on double bass. Well, I do not listen to death metal or anything so I am sure there are those that can go much faster with two pedals, but my point is I have been shown right before my very eyes the benefit to playing heel up. Not that I can do it yet, I still struggle with it. Sometimes I get "in the pocket" and I do alright, other times I wonder if my leg has been detatched from my friggen body. This makes me think I should experiment with both styles and see what works best for me. V. EDIT: Ack, I may have read you wrong, Fafnir, are you saying its better to get good at heel down, which will in turn improve playing heel up??

The reason I stress heel down, is that most guys can play heel up, but they can't play heel down.
I use Heel Up, Heel Down, and Heel-Toe.

Heel Up I use for AC/DC type of stuff...you know, when you want that "Stomp" happening.
I use Heel-Down for lower volume and general playing (It's a quicker response, and allows me to go into heel -toe technique without re-adjusting my feet.
I use the Heel-Toe technique for double-stroke rolls with my feet.

Over the last 30 years, drummers began playing heel up to get more volume out of the kickdrums (Amps and PA systems kept getting more powerful, but they still didn't mic the drums for a long time), and they have lost the heel down technique, as well as the heel toe technique.....so when somebody comes along who has incredible control, guys wonder why.
Think about all the drummers from the 60's & 70's who are/were total badasses on the kit. Most of them were from the era when guys were still learning heel-down, and heel-toe, which is actually a natural part of heel-down. Play heel down fast enough, and your heel will start kicking the pedal as well as your toes/ball of your foot.

So, the reason I promote heel down, is to build the muscles that are not built as well when playing heel up, you isolate the muscles in the front part of the leg when playing heel-down.


The way I see it, is that You want to be as well rounded in as many styles and techniques as you can be, not all of them can be used in every situation, so you use each technique where you can untilize it best.

The argument has been brought up lately about speed.
My use of the Heel-Toe technique Was never about being the fastest there is...Tim Waterson is several hundred strokes faster than me per minute (I last clocked it at a little over 1,200 strikes per minute....The Warped Tour is coming and friends are wanting me to go compete....I might just for the heck of it.)
The thing is, I learned this technique because I had been injured and needed a BETTER way to control my pedals at the speed at which I had been hurt. The fact that I am now faster than I had ever been, was a well-received surprise!

To make a long story short, I snapped a DW Footpedal's pedalboard in half playing heel up, and when my foot hit the concrete floor, I did enough damage to keep me away from the drumkit for several years.
It's not much fun to play if you are in pain.
I did everything that the "speedmetal Guru's" were telling me to do, which was:

1. loosen the pedal spring as much as it would go
2. loosen the head to wrinkles,
3.play heel up with your heel at the bottom of the pedal.


I will tell you right now, that I have a permanent injury that will be with me the rest of my life for following the above 3 pieces of "advice".


http://www.geocities.com/jaxmetal/drums/heel-toe.html

And if you're not familiar with Heel-Toe, above is a little article I wrote a couple of years ago. Also check out Tim Waterson's site.

http://www.drumcanman.com (I think this is what it is...I hadn't been over there in a while...I'm playing in 3 bands right now so I've been fairly busy.)

Hell, I need to put a link on that writing to his site.


Tim

[WorshipMetallica]

hey Tim, in your article, you said to have the beaters striking just below the center, I have my beaters just above the center. Do you recommend me lowering the beaters below the center, if you do, then what is the reason for this?

Also, I saw this instruction video of some guy, and he had a single pedal. He was doing doubles on the pedal. But he wasn't doing heel-toe I dont think. He did it real slow for the camera and it looked like he was hitting the pedal board with the ball of his foot, the "skip" to the top/font end of the board with his ball again really fast, and that's how he did his double. It wasn't heel-toe because he was playing heel up. What's the deal?

[eris23007]

Originally posted by Kingnome I'll send you some Promark 747's if you like. Free to guitar-playing drummers !

 

*grin* can I have some? I've been playing drums 13 years and just started playing guitar last september!

 

So this is my first post on the drum forum - I came to hc to learn recording actually and I'm starting to branch out a bit...

 

These fora really kick ass, such a great way to learn tips and tricks about EVERYTHING.

 

Anyhow...

 

 

Jake

[Yokozuna]

Heels down or heels off, well. A lot of drummers use both.

I use only heels-off technique (but I only DB since 1 year). The biggest thing about playing DB is just practicing ur muscles. Just play fast doubles with ur right foot. After that, try the same song (or beat) with your left foot. Your left foot will be really slow in the beginning, lacking of a good technique too (if u played single pedal before). The first time I played my DB pedal (heels up) maybe 8 beats/second, my left foot couldn't handle hitting the bass 4 times/second with good volume and accurance. Just after 1 month I could play 8bps the right way with good accurance of my left foot and good lasting volume. After about some months I could play 10bps quite well. Now I almost play 12bps, just with the old standard heels-off technique. (I only talk about standard rolling bass patterns > )

So don't worry, just practice a lot. When u hear u can play more fast and accurate, ur feeling really well and after that u have enough motivation to practice more!

For playing DB on different techniques etc. drumcanman can tell u everything

[Kingnome]

Originally posted by WorshipMetallica oh yeah and Kingnome, I don't need lessons, I already know how to 'do the math', I've been playing guitar for 5 years

That's cool....I didn't get that impression, but I seldom get the idea.

[Kingnome]

Originally posted by eris23007 *grin* can I have some? I've been playing drums 13 years and just started playing guitar last september!

NO !! You can have some Fender California picks, though.

[Fafnir777]

Originally posted by WorshipMetallica hey Tim, in your article, you said to have the beaters striking just below the center, I have my beaters just above the center. Do you recommend me lowering the beaters below the center, if you do, then what is the reason for this? Also, I saw this instruction video of some guy, and he had a single pedal. He was doing doubles on the pedal. But he wasn't doing heel-toe I dont think. He did it real slow for the camera and it looked like he was hitting the pedal board with the ball of his foot, the "skip" to the top/font end of the board with his ball again really fast, and that's how he did his double. It wasn't heel-toe because he was playing heel up. What's the deal?

 

 

Well, what size kick are you using?

 

for me, since I'm using 28" Kicks, the mallet never touches the center of the drum anyway!

I have my mallets lowered so that 1" of the mallet's shaft sticks out the bottom of the pedal where the mallet goes.

Also, make sure that the mallet shafts are the same length.

I used the Danmar mallets for years, and they used to come in all sorts of different lengths.(They had rotten quality control for awhile.)

 

There are two reasons I suggest lowering the mallets:

1.It sounds better hitting offcenter! LOL.

Just like in a Tympani the center of the drum is somewhat of a "deadspot".

 

2. When you are playing heel-toe, the mallet literally only moves about 1" from the head...after all, you can't expect to be flying, and have the mallet move it's regular stroke length. If I'm playing heel up, the mallet moves at least 3"-4".

 

Having the mallet lower will alos help build up your strength, because you are using less leverage.

I've seen some guys who have their mallets REALLY shortened, and while they could fly, they were getting even less volume out of the kicks.

 

 

The guy you are talking about, the guy is using what is sometimes called a "toe slide", or "heel slide", their foot moves up on the pedal to catch the rebound.

That is a modified version of the heel toe technique.

 

Once you have the motion down, you can move your foot around the pedal and find the sweet spot.

 

After awhile, you can play the heel toe without actually hitting the pedal with your heel, you can make the motion in the air, which I think might be what Tim Waterson is doing. I'm not sure, I haven't asked him....but you get more volume out of the motion.

In true heel-Toe technique, where you literally hit the pedal with your heel for the rebound, the vlomue is lower than if playing regular heel-up.

That's whay a lot of the Death Metal players wind up triggering.

 

I have a gate and compressor on the kicks so that I can help squash the louder stuff a little, and raise the lower Heel-Toe volume a bit, but if you do it too much, it starts sounding really "funky", because the compressor destroys the dynamics of the kick too much.

 

I was going to trigger my kicks, but my Bassplayer of the last 12 years was adamantly against it.

I'm ordering a pair of Axis triggers (They mount on the Axis pedals) and I play to use these to control the "Key" functions of the noise gates, so that the only time the gate will open is when the kick drum is struck, and it will open becauase of the mallet hits the head, instead of based upon what the microphone "hears"...currently, the bass guitar opens the gates sometimes, so I'm trying to end that.

 

 

Tim

[WorshipMetallica]

so what excactly am I supposed to do on the toe skip technique? I obviously can't do heel-toe, I wear size 16 shoes. I dont have the money to buy a long board either.

So do you hit the middle of the pedal with your toes and then actually raise then a little bit up and then come back down and hit the end/front of the pedal with your ball/toes. Kind of like an arch? thanks

[Fafnir777]

Originally posted by WorshipMetallica so what excactly am I supposed to do on the toe skip technique? I obviously can't do heel-toe, I wear size 16 shoes. I dont have the money to buy a long board either. So do you hit the middle of the pedal with your toes and then actually raise then a little bit up and then come back down and hit the end/front of the pedal with your ball/toes. Kind of like an arch? thanks

 

 

I've seen a video for it online.

 

Hold on a second and I'll see if I can find it.

 

 

Tim

[Fafnir777]

Here's the address for it.

http://www.kettner.net/video/heel_toe.wmv

This is not true "Heel-Toe", but it will achieve a similar result.




Tim

[Yokozuna]

which I think might be what Tim Waterson is doing

I think drumcanman uses lots of different techniques in his playing

By the way, cool video. Really interesting. Do you know where to find some more of those video's?