Members hardrockaren Posted April 21, 2003 Members Share Posted April 21, 2003 What is the secret to be fast at double bass without using the toe-heel method? It Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Professiona Posted April 21, 2003 Members Share Posted April 21, 2003 I'm new to the double-bass pedal. But I learned it pretty quickly. I don't use the heel-to-toe method (don't even know what it is, can someone drop a line on that?), but I keep both my heels up at all times, so I can get more leverage from the rest of my leg. I don't think I can play that Death metal stuff yet, but I can keep up with Carter Beauford (DMB) and Dennis Chambers occasionally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members HulkBlood01 Posted April 21, 2003 Members Share Posted April 21, 2003 ...practice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members vinniewannabe Posted April 21, 2003 Members Share Posted April 21, 2003 I think you have it mixed up. The heel-toe method refers (generally) to doing doubles on a single pedal. The idea being doing one hit with the heel of the foot and then catching the second hit with the toe in rapid succession. Of course, you could do heel-toe on two pedals but that would make a double-stroke roll ( RRLL, RRLL etc. ) Generally speaking, the double-bass guys play heel-up (for more power) than heel down. Heel-up or heel-down is the way you put your foot on the pedal and the heel-toe technique is one technique to do doubles on the bass drum. Understand the difference? The "secret" to playing fast double bass is to start slow and work your way up...it takes time...the double bass giants had to do it this way, so do you. Nobody sits behind a kit and just plays like lighting without time spend developing these things. Start slow and make sure all the notes are even and consistant...use a metronome. Make sure your springs on your bass drum pedal are relatively tight. That way, the beater comes off the drum quicker. Try to use the most efficient stroke...use the ball of your foot to "press" the pedal into the drum; don't lift your foot off of the pedal at all. Find the sweet spot on your pedal and put the ball of your foot on it. Make sure your foot is paralell to the ground; adjust your seat accordingly. Don't sit to low; have your kness at least paralell to the ground. Sit up straight. Then start beating those motherf'ers...(evenly don't forget!) Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ulank Posted April 21, 2003 Members Share Posted April 21, 2003 Originally posted by 88Fingers I'm new to the double-bass pedal. But I learned it pretty quickly. I don't use the heel-to-toe method (don't even know what it is, can someone drop a line on that?), but I keep both my heels up at all times, so I can get more leverage from the rest of my leg. I don't think I can play that Death metal stuff yet, but I can keep up with Carter Beauford (DMB) and Dennis Chambers occasionally. The thing with Dennis Chambers is he does NOT use a double bass pedal. He's single kick all the way. Fastest freaking single kick I've ever heard. Saw him at a clinic, heard this double bass roll going on, leaned over and saw him controlling his hat with his left foot. I was like OMG WTF WOW YOWZA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Professiona Posted April 21, 2003 Members Share Posted April 21, 2003 Originally posted by vinniewannabe The "secret" to playing fast double bass is to start slow and work your way up...it takes time...the double bass giants had to do it this way, so do you. Nobody sits behind a kit and just plays like lighting without time spend developing these things. Ever hear of Tony Royster Jr? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Professiona Posted April 21, 2003 Members Share Posted April 21, 2003 Originally posted by ulank The thing with Dennis Chambers is he does NOT use a double bass pedal. He's single kick all the way. Fastest freaking single kick I've ever heard. Saw him at a clinic, heard this double bass roll going on, leaned over and saw him controlling his hat with his left foot. I was like OMG WTF WOW YOWZA! Damn... I'm even more impressed now (like I could get more impressed with Dennis Chambers). That man is a freakin god on drums. Definitely one of my favs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ulank Posted April 21, 2003 Members Share Posted April 21, 2003 Yah, he's jaw dropping, no doubt. I guess that's what happens when you're playing in clubs at the age of 4!! and with the P-funk at age 17!!! C'mon, like you need to groove for funk music Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stapes2260 Posted April 21, 2003 Members Share Posted April 21, 2003 it's just like anything else. It takes a lot of practice and endurance. I find that when i use the exercise bike at the gym it helps my endurance a lot for playing double bass. I've kind of slacked off on my double bass playing lately, but when i was really into it, i could play pantera and early metallica stuff relatively easily. That's when i was practicing a good 45 minutes a day just on double bass technique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members greenschtick Posted April 21, 2003 Members Share Posted April 21, 2003 he's great, no doubt, but he does have the connector device from a bass drum slave pedal to the hi-hat....so some of the patterns involved include his right foot on one pedal, and then his left foot on a slave which also makes the HH go down...just trying to take a LITTLE bit of the magical, mystical out. i mean, let's not let any out of hand rumors started, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ulank Posted April 21, 2003 Members Share Posted April 21, 2003 That may be a possibility, but the particular groove he was playing at the clinic was all single kick, all the way. There was a long discussion at the clinic about this. I think the name Buddy Rich came up during the conversation There was no doubt, he wasn't "cheating" on this one. I'm not saying this is the only technique he uses, I'm sure you're right about the slave, but there's absolutely no doubt that this man can play single kick at lightening speed if he was so inclined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members iplayloudly Posted April 21, 2003 Members Share Posted April 21, 2003 Originally posted by vinniewannabe I think you have it mixed up. The heel-toe method refers (generally) to doing doubles on a single pedal. The idea being doing one hit with the heel of the foot and then catching the second hit with the toe in rapid succession. Of course, you could do heel-toe on two pedals but that would make a double-stroke roll ( RRLL, RRLL etc. ) actually i've seen some double-bass players that use the heel-toe method with both feet, to make it extremely fast. I've never been able to do this personally. My feet are too big I dont want to go out and spend the money on one of those extra big pedals. I dont really play super fast music anyway. My single-foot doubles are fast enough for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tenner Posted April 21, 2003 Members Share Posted April 21, 2003 what about virgil donati doesn't he do bassdrum rolls? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ulank Posted April 21, 2003 Members Share Posted April 21, 2003 Originally posted by iplayloudly My feet are too big FREAK!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fafnir777 Posted April 21, 2003 Members Share Posted April 21, 2003 Originally posted by hardrockaren What is the secret to be fast at double bass without using the toe-heel method? It Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fafnir777 Posted April 21, 2003 Members Share Posted April 21, 2003 Originally posted by tenner what about virgil donati doesn't he do bassdrum rolls? Yes, and he uses the Heel-Toe technique. It's why his kickdrums always sound so high pitched-because they ARE tuned tighter to allow him to play even faster. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fafnir777 Posted April 21, 2003 Members Share Posted April 21, 2003 Originally posted by vinniewannabe I think you have it mixed up.The heel-toe method refers (generally) to doing doubles on a single pedal. The idea being doing one hit with the heel of the foot and then catching the second hit with the toe in rapid succession. Of course, you could do heel-toe on two pedals but that would make a double-stroke roll ( RRLL, RRLL etc. )Generally speaking, the double-bass guys play heel-up (for more power) than heel down. Heel-up or heel-down is the way you put your foot on the pedal and the heel-toe technique is one technique to do doubles on the bass drum. Understand the difference?The "secret" to playing fast double bass is to start slow and work your way up...it takes time...the double bass giants had to do it this way, so do you. Nobody sits behind a kit and just plays like lighting without time spend developing these things. Start slow and make sure all the notes are even and consistant...use a metronome. Make sure your springs on your bass drum pedal are relatively tight. That way, the beater comes off the drum quicker. Try to use the most efficient stroke...use the ball of your foot to "press" the pedal into the drum; don't lift your foot off of the pedal at all. Find the sweet spot on your pedal and put the ball of your foot on it. Make sure your foot is paralell to the ground; adjust your seat accordingly. Don't sit to low; have your kness at least paralell to the ground. Sit up straight.Then start beating those motherf'ers...(evenly don't forget!)Good luck Generally most mid-tempo players play either Heel Up or Heel Down, but the Heel-Toe technique has been used by most of the Deathmetal drummers for some time - it's one of the reasons so many of them trigger live, because the heel-toe technique is not as loud as playing heel up. What is happening with Heel-Toe on 2 kicks (or a double pedal) is a Doublestroke roll, so you are right on about that. Trying to "blast away" as fast as you can while playing Heel Up is a waste of energy, using the Heel-Toe technique conserves energy allowing you to play twice as fast (since you are getting two strikes from each foot instead of one per foot) with about a third of the effort. The Heel-Toe allows much more control over the pedal than the Heel-Up, since it's motion is based with your whole foot over the pedalboard instead of just the "ball of your foot". Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dark Slide Posted April 22, 2003 Members Share Posted April 22, 2003 Run. Do a lot of running. I play in a death metal band, I'm not crazy fast... I can probably pull 750 bpm and hold it for a good bit. I used to run and my double stuff was great, then I stopped running and it started slipping back. I recently started running again and I have never been faster or more relaxed... and being relaxed is a key thing. Double Stroke rolls (RRLL) are faster and a {censored}load easier, though without triggers they sound uneven when most people do it IMO... and since you said without Heel-Toe, then I don't see a need to discuss it. Trying getting on a treadmill for a bit every day. Joey Jordison said in an interview that he ran 2 miles every day while recording 'Iowa' and when you got guys like Stewart Copeland impressed enough to start working on double bass stuff, you must be doing something right. As far a Herrera goes (Him and Sandoval are my heros) believe it or not, I hear he plays heels down. I can't confirm it, but I do know a lot of guys who swear heels down is the way to go for fast stuff. *shrug* Find out what works for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members woody431 Posted April 22, 2003 Members Share Posted April 22, 2003 Herrera must have some freakishly large shins if he plays heel down then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fafnir777 Posted April 22, 2003 Members Share Posted April 22, 2003 Originally posted by woody431 Herrera must have some freakishly large shins if he plays heel down then! Well, what happens is that at a certain point in speed, the "Heel Down" motion naturally turns into th Heel-Toe motion. There's nothing "mystical" about the heel-toe technique, tons of people have been using variations of it ever since they started trying to play fast on the kicks. Especially in the older days, when drummers almost exclusively played heel down. It really wasn't untill High powered Amplifiers began being used that drummers began playing heel up, because they (being unamplified- and prior to mic'ing drumkits) were trying to keep up with the volume that amplified instruments were producing. So, to get more volume, they began playing heel up and hitting as hard as they could. Heel down shortens the mallet stroke, and the energy expended is much less (after all, you aren't raising and lowering your entire leg as you would with heel-up.) so, it allows more speed and more control. Sort of like a guitar player who plants the heel of his hand on the tailpiece of the guitar vs. one who just "hangs" his hand in the air without planting it on the bridge. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tenner Posted April 22, 2003 Members Share Posted April 22, 2003 where do I learn toe-heel technique?preferrably written as if I was really stupid, since my native language isn't english Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fafnir777 Posted April 23, 2003 Members Share Posted April 23, 2003 Originally posted by tenner where do I learn toe-heel technique?preferrably written as if I was really stupid, since my native language isn't english Here's a page I wrote about the Heel-Toe Technique.Granted, it needs to be updated. Once you learn the Heel-Toe motion, you need to practice it BACKWARDS, and learn to move your foot in a "Toe-Heel" motion, it will add a lot of strength to your strikes. http://www.geocities.com/jaxmetal/drums/heel-toe.html Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members drumcanman Posted April 24, 2003 Members Share Posted April 24, 2003 Hello Just to confirm some rumours. I just spoke to Vigil and he does not use heel toe doubles. Virgil techniques is much more difficult to master. Heel toe can be learned virtually overnight and is the easiest way to increase your speed as you are doing 1/2 the work. Virgil taps the pedals with his toes and only raises his heels slightly. As for his bassdrum the last 2 times I saw him live his bassdrum was tuned low and powerfull and had a HUGE sound. NO triggers! For the drummers who want to know how to gain single stroke speed it takes a lot of patience, practice and control. The faster you play the more you need to RELAX and let the pedals do the work for you. For the drummer whose feet are too big for heel toe doubles heck out the VRUk pedal site as this will add up to 6" on your pedal length and make heel toe doubles a breeze even for the largest feet. Best of luck to all Tim Waterson www.drumcanman.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fafnir777 Posted April 24, 2003 Members Share Posted April 24, 2003 Originally posted by drumcanman Hello Just to confirm some rumours. I just spoke to Vigil and he does not use heel toe doubles. Virgil techniques is much more difficult to master. Heel toe can be learned virtually overnight and is the easiest way to increase your speed as you are doing 1/2 the work. Virgil taps the pedals with his toes and only raises his heels slightly. As for his bassdrum the last 2 times I saw him live his bassdrum was tuned low and powerfull and had a HUGE sound. NO triggers! For the drummers who want to know how to gain single stroke speed it takes a lot of patience, practice and control. The faster you play the more you need to RELAX and let the pedals do the work for you. For the drummer whose feet are too big for heel toe doubles heck out the VRUk pedal site as this will add up to 6" on your pedal length and make heel toe doubles a breeze even for the largest feet. Best of luck to all Tim Waterson www.drumcanman.com Hi Tim, that's really strange, because the stuff that I am most familiar with is what he did with... Oh, I can't think of his name...the guy who was Yngwie Malmsteen's third singer. I think the project was called "Ring of Fire", and the entire kit is tuned really high, the kicks as well, that's why the first thing that came to me was "heel-toe", and what I had seen of him playing, looked like he was playing some kind of modified heel-toe technique since everyone seems to do it a little bit differently... For instance - if I'm playing with tennis shoes or boots on, since I wear a 14 and using Axis A pedals, I can NOT get my entire foot in FRONT of the hinge enough to really nail the pedalboard as if I were barefooted, so I still play with the heel-toe motion, but my heels virtually do not touch the pedals-it's the balls of my feet that do the second stroke...the heels stay about 1/8"-1/4" above the pedalboard on the "heel" stroke. So that may be similar to what Virgil D is doing. I just tried this so I can verify exactly what is happening. If I'm wearing wrestling shoes or barefooted (I began using the wrestling shoes about 2 months ago, and there was a vast improvement in the volume of my heel strikes), I can get my entire foot in front of the hinge, and at that point my heel does hit the pedal with quite a bit of force. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ulank Posted April 24, 2003 Members Share Posted April 24, 2003 So wrestling shoes work out well, eh? I've been thinking of getting a pair. The Iron Cobra's chew up my Hanes socks like no tomorrow!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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