Members mmmiddle Posted February 24, 2005 Members Share Posted February 24, 2005 I need your overwhelming support in order to change my band's mind. If you visit our page at http://www.purevolume.com/otisburg and go to Photos, you'll see four pictures. I don't think any of the pictures are any good as far as promo photos go, but what's worse is that the worst picture there, with us standing around a "Sidewalk Closed" sign, is the one they all think is the "best" picture. They insist that it be used on our main page there. I think that this picture and the others are poor promo photos and that we should hire a professional to take them. But they don't feel like it is worth spending the money. I think the pictures we've taken their way (with a friend's camera) makes us look unprofessional and unappealing. My guess is that the reason we have over 600 views but fewer than 450 listens on our Purevolume page is due to the picture there. Most people probably visit the page, see the picture, and are turned away. Opinions either way? Do you think these photos are good? Bad? While you're at it, what do you think of the text on our site? From a marketing standpoint, do you have any other honest feedback that could help me improve our band's image and promotional material? It is important because this is the site we are using as an online press kit to send venues to, and we are booking right now. This is many venues' first impression of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bassinflux Posted February 24, 2005 Members Share Posted February 24, 2005 well, i think the picture is ok, it looks like a band shot and its deffinitlly the best of the 4.. but I think you could do better too. Do you know any amatuer photographers? it seems i run into them everywhere i turn around here... not the basement photoshoot type amatuers, but the artsy fartsy little emo geeks... they can take some interesting pictures. I bet you could get something cheap from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members worthyjoe Posted February 24, 2005 Members Share Posted February 24, 2005 Yes, the Sidewalk Closed is the best picture for what you have. I would use that one and perhaps make it black and white. Get rid of the other ones for now. I don't think you need a professional, you just need to get your friend with the camera to take a {censored}load more pictures of you guys in different settings. You are bound to find a few that will work. But no question, keep the closed sign one and ditch the rest for right now. Then add more as you get some good ones. The other ones you have now actually aren't that bad except for the corpse look the skinny guy is sporting. He needs to get a different pose or facial expression and you're fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members HighKing Posted February 25, 2005 Members Share Posted February 25, 2005 Your pics are fine. Sidewalk is the best...but its supposed to be about the music, right? *ducks* Anyways, it's tough to get people to listen to stuff. Having 450 listens is not bad...just keep at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted February 25, 2005 Members Share Posted February 25, 2005 All those pics are bad, IMO. The color shot looks like a bunch of guys loitering, waiting for someone to break out a hackeysack. (Look at us! Nothing says excitement more than a bunch of guys standing around!") The other pics are worse, looking like stills from "Night of the Living Dead." Get some live action shots. The whole disintersted/detached /angst ridden/moody shots of 4 guys trying to look deep has been done to death. Look here for more ideas of what not to do: http://www.rockandrollconfidential.com/hall/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bluesguitar Posted February 25, 2005 Members Share Posted February 25, 2005 lol...those are some horrible pics on that link!! The sidewalk closed is definately the best out of the 4. If it's a digital camera, I'd say just take pictures all the time (that's what I do). Most of them suck and I delete them but there's a few that are great that I wouldn't have gotten if I had been trying for pics. They just kinda came up by luck. Using film, that could get very pricey! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terry Allan Hall Posted February 25, 2005 Members Share Posted February 25, 2005 Contact the local highschool newspaperpaper and/or junior college photography classes and invite some up-and-coming photographers to come by and do a shoot...might get some free publicity and you'll DEFINITELY get better pics..all of those are terrible! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mmmiddle Posted February 25, 2005 Author Members Share Posted February 25, 2005 Thanks to all. It's always nice to get an outside opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members brassic Posted March 2, 2005 Members Share Posted March 2, 2005 Can I be brutally honest? The photos are appalling and are doing you more harm than good. I'd take all of them down immediately. Leave your logo up so there isn't a blank space on the page, but take the photos down now. Blue Strat and TAH have some good suggestions. I especially agree with the comment about the "bunch of guys standing around" - it's been done to death and is entirely forgettable. I work in the music industry in the UK (freelance music journalist and promotions, and put on the occassional gig/club night). I'm not trying to sound snotty, but just to give you an idea of how it looks from the other side. I get sent shedloads of press kits, from unsigned and established bands alike. I understand that unsigned bands don't have stacks of cash to get photos done, but if I got a press kit like the one you've posted the link to, it would go to the bottom of the pile. When you've got a million press kits to sort through (and if you're in Seattle, I bet the competition is stiff), you go to the ones that grab your attention first. I play in a band too so I do have more sympathy than most, but at the end of the day image is just as important as the music to the people who are - to be completely honest - trying to make a living from your band (face it, the guy/girl booking your band to play at his/her venue needs to earn a crust, no matter how much of a music fan s/he is). From a practical standpoint, you don't need to spend a fortune on photos. The idea about advertising at a local high school / college art school is a good one. If someone bites (and they will), I'd at least offer to cover the cost of the materials if they're not shooting digital. And I second the suggestion about live shots - it'll convey more about who you as a band are than a pic of you looking for a hackeysack. Re the text: It does the job, but I'd refrain from putting silly captions under your next batch of photos, except maybe gig details under any live shots - that will say to a promoter "Look, this venue was confident enough about us to book us, you should be too." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mmmiddle Posted March 3, 2005 Author Members Share Posted March 3, 2005 Well, cool. I appreciate it when someone is brutally honest. I need more direction than that though. How am I going to know that the next pictures we get aren't "appalling and doing more harm than good?" From the comments so far, all I've got for suggestions is "don't make it look like a bunch of guys standing around." It sounds like good advice, except it's a bit hard to put into practice. The only band shots I've seen where guys aren't standing around is where one guy is jumping up in the air or crouching or something like that. We have a couple of photos we tried to do some unique things with but they just seemed gimmicky. For instance there's one where we are all sitting on the couch and our bassist is aiming a TV remote at the camera. Then there's one where we're all sitting on a couch and I'm holding an umbrella. After we developed the photos they looked completely silly. Thanks for any clarification you can provide. Originally posted by brassic Can I be brutally honest? The photos are appalling and are doing you more harm than good. I'd take all of them down immediately. Leave your logo up so there isn't a blank space on the page, but take the photos down now.Blue Strat and TAH have some good suggestions. I especially agree with the comment about the "bunch of guys standing around" - it's been done to death and is entirely forgettable.I work in the music industry in the UK (freelance music journalist and promotions, and put on the occassional gig/club night). I'm not trying to sound snotty, but just to give you an idea of how it looks from the other side. I get sent shedloads of press kits, from unsigned and established bands alike. I understand that unsigned bands don't have stacks of cash to get photos done, but if I got a press kit like the one you've posted the link to, it would go to the bottom of the pile. When you've got a million press kits to sort through (and if you're in Seattle, I bet the competition is stiff), you go to the ones that grab your attention first.I play in a band too so I do have more sympathy than most, but at the end of the day image is just as important as the music to the people who are - to be completely honest - trying to make a living from your band (face it, the guy/girl booking your band to play at his/her venue needs to earn a crust, no matter how much of a music fan s/he is).From a practical standpoint, you don't need to spend a fortune on photos. The idea about advertising at a local high school / college art school is a good one. If someone bites (and they will), I'd at least offer to cover the cost of the materials if they're not shooting digital. And I second the suggestion about live shots - it'll convey more about who you as a band are than a pic of you looking for a hackeysack.Re the text: It does the job, but I'd refrain from putting silly captions under your next batch of photos, except maybe gig details under any live shots - that will say to a promoter "Look, this venue was confident enough about us to book us, you should be too." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rock And Roll Posted March 3, 2005 Members Share Posted March 3, 2005 Get someone to take a pic while you guys are at your instruments..playing, intense, sweating, whatever. Then, you can toss it into photoshop or whatever and do some really simple tweaking (black and white, saturations, etc.) to make it look interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members brassic Posted March 3, 2005 Members Share Posted March 3, 2005 Originally posted by mmmiddle From the comments so far, all I've got for suggestions is "don't make it look like a bunch of guys standing around." It sounds like good advice, except it's a bit hard to put into practice. The only band shots I've seen where guys aren't standing around is where one guy is jumping up in the air or crouching or something like that. It's a very subjective thing. Ultimately a lot of band photos are of people standing around - there's not much else you can do unless you happen to be able to fly or something. I think this is where your photographer is going to be a big help - they will almost certainly have some ideas for you too. The point I'm trying rather hamfistedly to make is that a good photographer (novice and pro alike) will know how to compose the shot and light it properly - there's a difference between a good portrait (which essentially is what a press shot is) and a snapshot that looks like you're waiting for the bus. A good photographer also won't put you into a position where you feel uneasy or silly just because they want to get something wacky for their portfolio. Most musicians aren't models. I'm not referring to looks, but rather to skill - it's actually not very easy for most people to relax in front of a camera, and that's doubly hard to do if you've got someone trying to make you pose naked smeared in Cheez Whiz or whatever. There is a balance though. You want to get something that you feel comfortable with, and if all you're comfortable doing is standing up straight and gritting your teeth until the ordeal is over, then work with that. Search out interesting looking locations (eg, I've seen some pretty cool press shots of bands playing on a kids' jungle gym), investigate using different camera angles (like the ever popular "worm's-eye view" - you all stand on a wall, photographer takes the shot from the ground looking up at you, making you look all imposing and statuesque), play with different depths of field and focussing, that sort of thing. If you've got photographer with a vision and they have the technical ability to pull it off, you won't look like you're just standing around. Take a look at as many press shots as you can for ideas - do a search on allmusic.com and look at what the established bands have for press shots, and see what catches your eye. There is an art to photography, and you'll waste a lot less time and money if you get someone who knows a bit about it rather than messing around with your mate's digital camera and hoping for the best. And you don't necessarily have to blow a wad of cash on a pro photographer, as a couple of people have said before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mistersuperfly Posted March 3, 2005 Members Share Posted March 3, 2005 #1, use film, preferably black and white. One of my friends, this girl that is still in high school, she is looking to go into photography. She said she would love to do a shoot of us and see what kinda shots she could get... These 4 were off of one roll of film, I think they turned out great. Try and do it about an hour before the sun is down and have the band face the sun. EDIT: She took about 100 digital shots too, they all sucked... and it wasn't the camera, it was one of the newer SLR sized digital cameras. Something about digital isn't near as nice when it comes to the finished shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted March 4, 2005 Members Share Posted March 4, 2005 Originally posted by Mistersuperfly #1, use film, preferably black and white. One of my friends, this girl that is still in high school, she is looking to go into photography. She said she would love to do a shoot of us and see what kinda shots she could get... These 4 were off of one roll of film, I think they turned out great. Try and do it about an hour before the sun is down and have the band face the sun. EDIT: She took about 100 digital shots too, they all sucked... and it wasn't the camera, it was one of the newer SLR sized digital cameras. Something about digital isn't near as nice when it comes to the finished shot. Pic 1: Lineup at a police station. Pic 2: Waiting for the school bus. Pic 3: Some guys. Too bad you can only see one of them. Pic 4: "And this year's offensive line for the Clark Fork High School Wampus Cats..." The photography is fine. But can't you guys do anything but line up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DanRoy Posted March 4, 2005 Members Share Posted March 4, 2005 i like those pics in the previous post to the original poster, loooks like the guy is pissing on the sidewalk sign...not ideal i will let you in on my secret weapons: don't wear jeans, khakis or shorts, or reflective or flame (or similar) shirts. don't everybody grimace. i plan to smile in my promo shots, or at least give a cool look, anything but a grimace i agree with the guy who said take tons of digital pics...a couple will be gems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mistersuperfly Posted March 4, 2005 Members Share Posted March 4, 2005 Originally posted by BlueStrat Pic 1: Lineup at a police station. Pic 2: Waiting for the school bus. Pic 3: Some guys. Too bad you can only see one of them. Pic 4: "And this year's offensive line for the Clark Fork High School Wampus Cats..." The photography is fine. But can't you guys do anything but line up? None of those have been photoshopped at all yet, I messed around with the one that had the 3 of us (I'm the one on the far left) and just by lowering the brightness I was able to see all of us. The on with our backs to the camera is going to be the back cover of our album, I LOVE the gradient that the sky has... the first and fourth ones could be press packet stuff... Here's another of me, I think we are thinking about coloring the guitar and leaving the rest Black and white... I like it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bluesguitar Posted March 4, 2005 Members Share Posted March 4, 2005 How 'bout this one? It's not your usual pic and it just kinda happened! The hats and glasses were just sitting in the studio! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members brassic Posted March 4, 2005 Members Share Posted March 4, 2005 Originally posted by Mistersuperfly One of my friends, this girl that is still in high school, she is looking to go into photography. She said she would love to do a shoot of us and see what kinda shots she could get... These 4 were off of one roll of film, I think they turned out great. Black and white is lovely but I think you should play around with the composition more. There's far too much empty space surrounding you guys. Which one of you is the singer? He should really be standing a bit further forward than the rest of the band (democracy doesn't have any place in press shots) - when you've got that many people in the band you need to break up the line a bit. What you've got there is a firing squad. It's actually really tricky to compose shots with more than a couple of people in them and still show their faces properly, but it can be done. Take a look at the photos on this band's website, and check out the photo section entitled "Tapestry Festival". (or look at the photo I'm going to try to attach here) I'm not asking you to pass comment on the band or their image (it's not my band, btw), but just take a look at how the photographer dealt with the issue of making four guys standing around. The guy all the way to the right with the hat is the singer/lead guitar, the one all the way to the left is the bassist, and the drummer and rhythm guitarist are a bit further back. The singer is the only one who is absolutely in perfect focus, while the rest of the band are just a touch fuzzier. It gives a much better sense of depth and perspective. A bit of creative focussing can make the difference between a good shot and an ordinary one. Also take note of the perspective. The photographer posed the band on a platform (actually, it was probably the stage) so that they were standing a bit above him, which instantly gives a bit more of an imposing feel. He used the beam with the rope in the back to create a sort of a frame around the band. The setting is minimal, but it's strong. With regards to the wardrobe, the only one who's really wearing anything that significantly jumps out at you is the hat on the singer. The rest of the band are dressed fairly similarly and using the same colour scheme - there's no stripes or logos or busy patterns to distract the eye. (I think the yellow border around the photo is pretty bad, but it was put there by the web designer rather than the photographer.) Granted, the photgrapher who took that photo is a pro, but at the same time he very likely didn't use anything more complicated than a 35mm film camera with a standard external "hammer" flash. (NB, you should always use a flash, even when you're outdoors, otherwise you wind up with a silhouette like the one in your third pic.) I'm not saying that every band shot should be done like this, I'm just using it as an example of how the photographer overcame the problem of making four guys standing around look a bit more interesting without beating you over the head with wacky ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mmmiddle Posted March 4, 2005 Author Members Share Posted March 4, 2005 Here's my final analsysis: After looking at hundreds of shots online since this thread started I haven't learned anything. Pretty much every promo photo I've come across is a bunch of guys standing around. Sometimes an interesting setting is used for the photo, like the wild west theme of the Beat Up pictures Brassic posted, but usually it is very understated (in the one attached to Brassic's post, you only see a noose) in order to keep the emphasis of the photo on the band. Image composition is also not prominent. Photos are taken from all kinds of angles, and I'm sure that it is the skill of the photographer that makes every angle look good, but that still adds only a minor amount of interest to the photo. Ultimately it's still a bunch of guys standing around. Some photos have the guys sitting on a wall or couch, or riding bikes, and these photos actually pique your interest a bit more, but the wilder you get with these ideas, the more narrow is the range of people who will respond favorably to the band, because some people will make assumptions based on these things. For instance, should I assume the Beat Up is a country act from those photos? In a sea of press kits, I still don't see how a photo can singlehandedly make a press kit stand out? It seems like there are many far more important things that would get your demo heard: name recognition, buzz, connection to a label or promotion company, having some kind of a relationship with the booking agent, even just having a really well designed press kit with interesting art and a theme. So what's the goal of the photo? Should it be considered the item that would singlehandedly compel the booking agent to play your CD? If that's the case, maybe some kind of voodoo or splash of holy water would come in handy. (I'm being completely sarcastic when I say this.) My conclusion is that the best you can hope for is a photo which looks a little more professional or interesting than the competition, something that is entirely subjective and unique to everyone who sees the photo. In other words, it's a bit of a lost cause and something you should consider carefully but not worry about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members brassic Posted March 4, 2005 Members Share Posted March 4, 2005 I'm not going to go through your whole reply but in a nutshell, you do have a lot of good points. No, the photo is not the be-all and end-all, and a lot of the points you've raised are definitely more important. If I know that Otisburg are a kick ass live act because either I've seen them myself or that's the word around town, then of course a stupid photo isn't going make me say, "Yeah well forget them playing at my club, they may kick ass but man their photo sucks." Let's just forget all the business about "guys standing around" for a minute. Leave it up to the photographer to execute the ideas properly, and remember that just because someone has a camera doesn't mean they can take a good photograph. When a promoter, A&R guy, whatever who's never heard of you opens up that press kit, do you want them to see something that looks professional or something amateur? Or put it this way, if you're applying for a job, do you print out your resume on nice paper, or do you scribble something on the back of a grease-stained McDonald's place mat and send that? Attention to detail counts. It's the same principle with your photos. If you can't send them something that looks professional, leave it out. On a personal note, I'm probably coming across as being a bit know-it-all, but please don't think that's my intention. You posted here because you disagreed with the rest of your band and you suspected that your photos weren't up to scratch. I think you're right. You're taking control over your own promotion and that's awesome. I've been doing this for a living for over a decade, with multi-platinum selling artists, so I'm not talking crap. A lot of bands spend a lot of time making music but very little on thinking about how to promote themselves. Don't make the same mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted March 4, 2005 Members Share Posted March 4, 2005 Originally posted by brassic I'm not going to go through your whole reply but in a nutshell, you do have a lot of good points. No, the photo is not the be-all and end-all, and a lot of the points you've raised are definitely more important. If I know that Otisburg are a kick ass live act because either I've seen them myself or that's the word around town, then of course a stupid photo isn't going make me say, "Yeah well forget them playing at my club, they may kick ass but man their photo sucks." Let's just forget all the business about "guys standing around" for a minute. Leave it up to the photographer to execute the ideas properly, and remember that just because someone has a camera doesn't mean they can take a good photograph. When a promoter, A&R guy, whatever who's never heard of you opens up that press kit, do you want them to see something that looks professional or something amateur? Or put it this way, if you're applying for a job, do you print out your resume on nice paper, or do you scribble something on the back of a grease-stained McDonald's place mat and send that? Attention to detail counts. It's the same principle with your photos. If you can't send them something that looks professional, leave it out. On a personal note, I'm probably coming across as being a bit know-it-all, but please don't think that's my intention. You posted here because you disagreed with the rest of your band and you suspected that your photos weren't up to scratch. I think you're right. You're taking control over your own promotion and that's awesome. I've been doing this for a living for over a decade, with multi-platinum selling artists, so I'm not talking crap. A lot of bands spend a lot of time making music but very little on thinking about how to promote themselves. Don't make the same mistake. I agree in principle, but the last time I used a professional photographer he made us look like a family portrait. That's when I started doing collages of live shots. In addition to having each guy actually doing something, it makes it easier to just replace one guy in the picture rather than having to redo the whole thing when a guy quits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted March 4, 2005 Members Share Posted March 4, 2005 Originally posted by Mistersuperfly None of those have been photoshopped at all yet, I messed around with the one that had the 3 of us (I'm the one on the far left) and just by lowering the brightness I was able to see all of us. The on with our backs to the camera is going to be the back cover of our album, I LOVE the gradient that the sky has... the first and fourth ones could be press packet stuff... Here's another of me, I think we are thinking about coloring the guitar and leaving the rest Black and white... I like it! The picture is good. The composition is good. And I like your idea about just coloring the guitar. My only criticism is this: unless you're planning on marketing your ass, you need a decent face shot to go along with it. I might use a pic like this on the inside of a CD liner, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted March 4, 2005 Members Share Posted March 4, 2005 Here's one I used once for a poster, taken at a festival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted March 4, 2005 Members Share Posted March 4, 2005 Here's another one I used for promo, taken at another concert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members brassic Posted March 5, 2005 Members Share Posted March 5, 2005 Originally posted by BlueStrat I agree in principle, but the last time I used a professional photographer he made us look like a family portrait. Out of curiosity, what sort of work did the pro who did your last photos specialise in? The pics you posted are great, by the way. If you're shelling out money for a pro, I'd ask to see their other work and discuss some ideas with them, and ask them to listen to your CD or come to a gig before doing the shoot. (That's just a general point, not saying that you didn't do this already.) If you can't find someone you're confident enough in to do the job, stick with the live shots, which you should get as a matter of course anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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