keeping time- metronome vs. actual song

[thelegacy]

metronome lets you play what you feel, but i prefer playing with music. you get no SOUL with a beep

[soundcreation]

The thing is that you CAN'T become "flexible" and "soulful" without a click unless you've lerned to internalize time VERY well. And in order to do that (in my opinion) you must use a metronome to learn this. I think genghiskog is exactly right; you should be keeping time not following time.

AND I think we as drummers (especially in rock) should really be encouriging our guitarists and bassist to use THEIR metronomes so when WE want to play above the bar it doesn't throw them off. (and of course they blame us!)

In my opinion thats what sets jazz guys on a higher level. Go listen to the greats like Elvin, Tony, Art, Max, budy etc (especially tony) and tap your foot in time and listen to what they do. I gaurantee you these guys were NOT using clicks yet they were so perfect with their time they could go exploring and they knew EXACTLY where they were and their bandmates were so good they would never be "thrown off" by their drummer.

Now having said ALL of that......there is a strange part of me that really likes Meg White's quirky {censored}ed up slightly out of time grooves......Go figure.

[Old Steve]

You need to be able to play with a click, even if you don't end up doing it all the time. You probably play better with your ipod because you're used to listening to the whole song rather than just the beat. At some point, if you play long enough, you'll have to play something listening just to a click, so it pays to practice it.

It can actually be kind of fun, especially if you have a good metronome that can subdivide notes. By varying the levels of teh different beats (say accented quarters with lower 16th behind it) you can actually pretend that you're jamming with another percussionist (named "Click") and let the click form the foundation of what you're doing. Then play and riff over the top of it. Tons of fun.

[crocophile]

Now having said ALL of that......there is a strange part of me that really likes Meg White's quirky {censored}ed up slightly out of time grooves......Go figure.

 

 

ah yeah i got to see the white stripes recently. i like megs playing too adn she sounded amazing live

[Franz74]

In a lot of the originals that I've been involved on the creative process on, tempo changes and timing changes/feels were part of it. Makes it impossible to try and do to a metronome.

That's something i was wondering myself (keep in mind i'm just a guitarist ): if you play live with a metronome, how do you do if what you are playing requires tempo changes? Or is it impossible to play live with a metronome and have tempo changes in the same song?

[BonzoMcbrain]

I've been playing for a few years now.

I bought a metronome about a year into drumming and absolutely hated the damn thing!

I used it now and again but it mostly collected dust. I played along to some records and played in a few bands.

About 2 years later, I tried the metronome again. Nothing. Then, I decided to hum a George Lynch riff in my head while playing to the metronome's click.

Nailed it! I just needed to concentrate less on the click and more on direction.

I'm a live drummer though. I jam a lot and if another musician's time is shaky, it affects all of us. It's easy to spot who's on and off.

That being said, I never really did that much with my metronome. I would use it here and there as a sort of "test" just to make sure my timing was good.

I believe I got my sense of timing from watching/ listening to countless drummers and jamming with other musicians.

Jamming was the single most important thing and if you can find other dedicated musicians, jam!

I do recommend you buy a metronome though. Just to be sure. Just remember it's not the be all.

[soundcreation]

I think some people are over analyzing this. Of course no one plays live with a click; or at least I've never heard of that. Good organic music flows with the band and tempo fluctuations will occur. A guitar book I have mentions that if you track James Brown song on a bar to bar basis you might find tempo fluctuations of up to 5%. Now I doubt that its from bar 1 to bar 2 but throughout the song I have no doubt that it's probably true in different sections of the song. But if you think Stubblefield and Starks didn't practice with a metronome...well you'd be crazy.

I think their is a tendency for some drummers (and other musicians) to shun metronome work because they think it will make them "robotic" or "machine like" and cause the music to be to rigid. Well frankly I think that is total bull{censored}. It most likely is just a lame excuse because people are to lazy. And lets face it, metronome practice is {censored}in hard tedious work. It's like a slap of cold water to hear the reality of your ability to keep time because the metronome won't lie to you.

The reason the J.B.'s, sound so bloody good (along with all the great music) is precisely because they INTENSLY practiced their time.

Go listen to some Tony Williams.....Still think you have good time? Well he wasn't born with that ability. That concept is bull{censored} too. He worked his ass off to sound like that. Good time keeping is hard work period.

[Franz74]

Of course no one plays live with a click; or at least I've never heard of that.

Well, i'm quite sure there are drummers who play live with a click. Or not?

[Carminemw]

Well, i'm quite sure there are drummers who play live with a click. Or not?

Thank you very much...I played LIVE with a click for 7 years worth I might add. It IS hard to do, it IS very sterile, but it is surely possible and quite efficient. Like I said before, we sequenced many parts, including bass parts, extra percussion, keys...and without that click banging in my ear, just try and keep steady and accurate with a machine that DOES! You can't always here the best live as far as timing goes, and with me having to lead the tempo with live and not so live personnell, the click is the only effective way to keep everyone together. IT'S VERY TOUGH, but also very possible...

[drumtechdad]

Of course no one plays live with a click; or at least I've never heard of that.

 

Nearly every name-brand live rock show you hear these days is played to a click. I just heard Dream Theater a couple of weeks ago and I remember saying to myself, this can't be to a click, there's too many meter changes and tempo changes. Then I read the interview with MP in MD and, sure enough he said their live show is always done to a click. The hassle is programming the click to include all those meter and tempo changes.

 

Good organic music flows with the band and tempo fluctuations will occur.

 

If you listen to Porcaro or Gadd or Keltner, 99% of what they did was played to a click--yet it sounds loose, spontaneous, alive. They mastered the ability to play to a click yet have subtle time fluctuations--such as the backbeat being that tiny smidgen behind--at the same time. Their tracks don't sound "metronomic," yet they are.

 

The reason the J.B.'s, sound so bloody good (along with all the great music) is precisely because they INTENSLY practiced their time. Go listen to some Tony Williams.....Still think you have good time? Well he wasn't born with that ability. That concept is bull{censored} too. He worked his ass off to sound like that. Good time keeping is hard work period.

 

Superb points.

 

Bottom line #1: Nearly every musician in the world works with a metronome for a good long time at some point in their training. And drummers shouldn't?

 

Bottom line #2: If you want to work playing drums, you have to play with a click. Unless you're Ian Paice.

[coyote-1]

Some very fundamental concepts are being ignored then.

You know, I read and hear these kind of comments from pros quite often. But if anyone I ever or have ever played with thinks I'm speeding up or slowing down, I get crucified, and then fired. go figure.

Time is not just the responsibility of the drummer - the WHOLE BAND is responsible for solid time. But of course if any one player has crappy time while the rest are solid, that person will stick out like a sore thumb. And pros don't have time for that! That's why woodshedding with a metronome is so crucial.

That said, it is not a problem if the whole band goes along for the ride and are OK with it and still playing in the pocket. But it ought not be a serious acceleration unless that's explicitly called for in the arrangement. It ought be subtle. Example: Highway Star from Deep Purple's Made in Japan. It certainly ends a bit faster than it started, but only by a couple BPM.