Alternative Automotive Fuels

[Rachel Sampson]

Originally posted by burdizzos So it's a motor that uses magnets that never lose their charge and it provides kinetic energy indefinitely. People have been working on these tings for over one hundred years. Maybe these guys got it right. You'd probbaly gain a bit of legitimacy in the discussion if you'd leave out the conspiracy theories. The information on those sites is sketchy at best and the videos really don't show anything. It's tough to get excited about something when it sounds too good to be true and the people promising it aren't making much of an effort to explain it.

 

It does sound too good to be true, but it gets my vote until I hear about something more promising!

[Rachel Sampson]

Originally posted by Undertoad People! Shale is the answer. The United States has an oil reserve at least three times that of Saudi Arabia locked in oil shale deposits beneath federal land in Colorado, Utah and Wyoming, according to a study released Wednesday. Since 1981, Shell researchers at the company's division of "unconventional resources" have been spending their own money trying to figure out how to get usable energy out of oil shale. Judging by the presentation the Rocky Mountain News heard this week, they think they've got it. ... On one small test plot about 20 feet by 35 feet, on land Shell owns, they started heating the rock in early 2004. "Product" - about one-third natural gas, two-thirds light crude - began to appear in September 2004. They turned the heaters off about a month ago, after harvesting about 1,500 barrels of oil. While we were trying to do the math, O'Connor told us the answers. Upwards of a million barrels an acre, a billion barrels a square mile. And the oil shale formation in the Green River Basin, most of which is in Colorado, covers more than a thousand square miles - the largest fossil fuel deposits in the world.

Oh yeah, that's the answer, tear up Colorado so we can continue to destroy the environment.

[Bruce Bennett]

Originally posted by Rachel Sampson It does sound too good to be true, but it gets my vote until I hear about something more promising!

 

 

If you do some serious research into magnetic motors and the work of Howard Johnson and Nikola Tesla, you'll find that most of this technology is Decades old, and that it has been hidden on purpose from us so that a few could make a lot of money.

 

and thats not theory. it's fact... go look it up.

 

some of the facts, are WAY scarier than the idea of a 100% output motor that will run for 50 years without any other fuel.

 

I'm in the process of building one right now. the plans are over 50 years old and available for anyone that wishes to do so.

 

Perhaps that makes me seem like a flake, but I live in a town, where about 10 years ago, a local man developed an internal combustion engine that could produce over 600 horsepower and would get 80 MPG.. he got funding to go into production and started building a brand new factory after several car companies came down to "buy it" from him.. but he wouldn't sell, claiming that if he sold it to them, they would just "bury it" and the world would never see it's beneifits.

The building he had constructed, is still here, empty and he turned up shot to death by a unknown assailant that has never been caught.

Conspiricy theories?

No. Fact, will always be stranger than fiction.

the only way an alternative fuel will ever be realized to the public is if someone "gives" it to the world, and just forgets about making a profit on it.

[Zeromus-X]

Let me guess, did he get the plans for the 80 MPG engine with 600 horsepower from the same guy who came up with the carburetor that gives 200 MPG?

[niomosy]

Originally posted by Bruce Bennett and you say "I" should leave out the conspricy theories.. Bass players:rolleyes:

Fran wasn't the one that mentioned leaving out the conspiracy theories

[burdizzos]

Originally posted by Rachel Sampson On that note, correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't natural gas another non-renewable resource? Why would we want to switch to that??? I don't know what the right answer is, but those seem the wrong answers to me.

Natural gas is plentiful right now and in the long term can be replaced with syngas made from coal when that is economically valid and syngas from coal can be replaced with syngas from garbage/agricultural sources when that becomes economically valid.

Natural gas burns cleanly and can be used in all gasoline powered cars if they are converted.

[beam]

Perhaps VW will come out with a hybrid deisel engine.

A mix of electric and their TDI.



Also, this year it looks like Honda revamped their Natural Gas powered Civic

http://automobiles.honda.com/models/model_overview.asp?ModelName=Civic+GX

Civic GX NGV

[burdizzos]

Originally posted by beam Perhaps VW will come out with a hybrid deisel engine. A mix of electric and their TDI.

 

 

 

I'm thinking that will be the next logical step for hybrids, but I don't know if VW will do it. It would require a new engine altogether and I'm not sure if VW is interested in dropping that kind of cash.

[burdizzos]

Originally posted by beam Also, this year it looks like Honda revamped their Natural Gas powered Civic http://automobiles.honda.com/models/model_overview.asp?ModelName=Civic+GX Civic GX NGV

 

 

 

BADASS!

 

 

This is progress.

[niomosy]

Originally posted by burdizzos BADASS! This is progress.

 

 

Hmmm, there's enough fueling stations in my area that it's tempting to consider one the next time I go to buy a car. I wanna see what happens with bio-diesel, though, as it does seem to be a strong contender for the next phase.

[burdizzos]

If I could get a home fueling station and a conversion for my truck for less than $3000, I'd consider making my truck a natural gas powered vehicle.

[Thunderbroom]

Originally posted by Bruce Bennett Perhaps that makes me seem like a flake, but I live in a town, where about 10 years ago, a local man developed an internal combustion engine that could produce over 600 horsepower and would get 80 MPG.. he got funding to go into production and started building a brand new factory after several car companies came down to "buy it" from him.. but he wouldn't sell, claiming that if he sold it to them, they would just "bury it" and the world would never see it's beneifits. The building he had constructed, is still here, empty and he turned up shot to death by a unknown assailant that has never been caught.

 

 

I'll have to admit it, I'm really curious about this and want to read up on it. What's the guy's name and the name of the town?

[Thrash Jazz]

I work in transportation R&D, so I know a bit about this subject...

We hear about new technologies that are going to "change everything" every week. Trouble is, the stuff you hear about is all at the prototype stage and is a LONG way from being mass-produced. And even if they were, most of them would add a lot to the vehicle's cost, which doesn't make them an attractive option to car companies. Hell, I heard about an actual proposal that came in some years ago for a car that ran on PISS. I've read some pretty farfetched ones myself.

Hydrogen isn't happening, at least not for probably about half a century. The whole transportation infrastructure would have to be changed, which would cost billions. There are serious issues with safety (hydrogen is VERY volatile - think Hindenburg blimp), which would make it very difficult to transport and store.

Biofuels, electric cars, natural gas, solar, ethanol, compressed air, etc, all work. Prototypes have been built and, in a few cases, are on the market on a limited basis. However, the unfortunate fact is that either none of them create as much energy as gasoline when combusted, or, in the case of electric, solar and air, don't have the range yet. The designs constantly getting better, so who knows. Still, you can't change chemical properties. At any rate, they are all decades away from replacing gasoline, if they ever do. For those that are on the market, the limited infrastructure for refueling probably scares away most potential buyers.

Birdie is probably right - diesels are probably the best near-term solution. The fuel is cheaper and more efficient and they put out less pollutants (although they do emit more particulate matter, which is more harmful to the environment). They are getting better fast - still not up to a gas engine, but perhaps soon. The problem is that they still suck in cold climates, so that doesn't help us Canucks

Hybrids will probably get more and more popular as gas prices go up and the technology to make them cheaper becomes available, but they, too, are still a ways away from being as good as a gas engine.

Another thing that is being done is to simply go on a blitz to improve other aspects of the car. Gas engines can be designed more efficiently, and other stuff like lightweight metals and improved tires and streamlining can lead to much better fuel efficiency.

[prima]

I'd personally like to see more work on wind power. I saw a wind farm not too long ago and it is quite impressive. Another is geothermal. This one is pretty localized in where it can go, but it seems pretty cool. I visited a tidal generating station once upon a time, so that's another interesting one. If we have a renewable, relatively pollution free electrical source, then it doesn't matter how much electricity we use to create the hydrogen.

I'd like to see fusion happen. Once ITER opens, I imagine we'll get a long way toward seeing if this technique for fusion is realistic. Inertial confinement fusion is interesting as well, but it isn't too well developed.

[beam]

They sell home kits that allow you to set up small wind props on your roof, and solar cells wherever you want, and have them feed into the power system.

[greenshag]

Originally posted by beam They sell home kits that allow you to set up small wind props on your roof, and solar cells wherever you want, and have them feed into the power system.

 

 

very popular in the southwest for heating pools and water heaters....the solar cell kits.

[burdizzos]

6400 watt solar kit.

 

 

At about $30k, not too many people can afford that sort of thing. In my location, I need massive amounts of solar celles to cover my energy consumption.

 

Once the price gets down to about $10k, I'll consider it, but for now it just isn't an option.

 

The cost is about the same for a home wind set up.

[lug]

Originally posted by beam They sell home kits that allow you to set up small wind props on your roof, and solar cells wherever you want, and have them feed into the power system.

 

 

Though probably more effecient now, at one point, these took almost 30 years of continuous operation to pay off the initial investment. Since they probably wouldn't last that long, it was not a logical solution. There is a new method of building solar cells that cost 1/10th of current technology, but only produces 1/2 the power per sq. foot. Even if you get 100% conversion of energy, there is still only so much energy per square foot from solar. The estimate I heard was that it would take 40 rooftops at 100% for one hour to equal the energy in 1 gallon of gasoline. Solar can be an assist, but there s just not enough energy in it to be a true repacement technology.

[Super_Donut_Man]

I took an environmental sciences class in college (cop out class that fulfilled the science requirement for transfering to a university) and in it we had a discussion on alternative fuels, and what peaked my interests was a fuel called A55 (If I recall it correctly) and its water based (pretty sure). CAT is actually a major supporter of this, and is trying hard to push it through atleast when I was taking this class. But this was a year and a half ago, and I don't know if this idea is still is floating around.

[prima]

I recall from instrumentation that if your rooftop was entirely solar panels that it would provide ~50% of your energy needs if the solar panel was 20% efficient. This was in the winter at 40 degrees north latititude I believe.

Unfortunately photovoltaic cells are typically only around 10% efficient.

[burdizzos]

Originally posted by lug Though probably more effecient now, at one point, these took almost 30 years of continuous operation to pay off the initial investment. Since they probably wouldn't last that long, it was not a logical solution. There is a new method of building solar cells that cost 1/10th of current technology, but only produces 1/2 the power per sq. foot. Even if you get 100% conversion of energy, there is still only so much energy per square foot from solar. The estimate I heard was that it would take 40 rooftops at 100% for one hour to equal the energy in 1 gallon of gasoline. Solar can be an assist, but there s just not enough energy in it to be a true repacement technology.

 

 

 

As solar rig to meet my needs such that the amount that I sell back during the day exceeds the amount that I consume at night would cost me $30k.

 

Given my current power bills, It would take between 10 and 15 years for the solar panels to pay for themselves. Most new cells will last for over 25 years.

 

The only problem is the front end expense.

[lug]

Originally posted by burdizzos As solar rig to meet my needs such that the amount that I sell back during the day exceeds the amount that I consume at night would cost me $30k. Given my current power bills, It would take between 10 and 15 years for the solar panels to pay for themselves. Most new cells will last for over 25 years. The only problem is the front end expense.

Wow. What % of your load is aircinditioning? Here, the AC can easily be 75 to 80% of our electric in the summer. Unfortunately, Summer seems to to last about 11 1/2 months here. I pulled over 4000kw last month.

[beam]

Originally posted by lug Wow. What % of your load is aircinditioning? Here, the AC can easily be 75 to 80% of our electric in the summer. Unfortunately, Summer seems to to last about 11 1/2 months here. I pulled over 4000kw last month.

Ceiling fans?

[burdizzos]

We just bought a house that is 60 years old and has the original windows.

Next year, our electrical consumption will be far less, but that's no guarantee that our costs will be any lower.


I have a list of efficiency oriented items to cover in the house before I can legitimately consider wind or solar power.


My guestimate of 10 to 15 years is based on my assumption that power costs will continue to rise. If power stayed the same in price, I'd be looking at closer to 20 years, but we both know that I'm no optimist.

[lug]

Originally posted by beam Ceiling fans?

 

 

8

 

Burdizzos, what kind of power can a good solar panel system generate nowdays?