Underappreciated bassists

[phunkyhick]

There is always a lot of talk about the virtuosos of the bass guitar around here such as Entwistle, Miller, Wooten, Ryknow, Geddy, Louis Johnson and the like, but it is always good to give a shout out to the guys who often get overlooked.

 

I thought of this the other day when my friend was telling me about what he was teaching his new bassist, he was busting out the Who and Rush CD's. I've seen this guy play before, and my favorite thing about him is that he just rocks, and doesn't get into all that {censored}. I was telling him about what I consider to be 5 of the most important bassists in rock music, and I realized that 2 or 3 of them never get mentioned. Most of these guys are not doing crazy {censored} the whole time, but they groove deeper than the San Andreas fault.

 

1. Sweet Charles Sherell - James Brown He played the line on "The Payback" James wrote the line, but Charles added the ghost note and the feel. IMO, it is the funkiest bassline EVER!

 

2. Cliff Williams - AC/DC. Quite possibly the tightest bassist in rock music. "Touch Too Much" has a lot of hits in it, and he nails you with every one right in the gut, out to your ass. "Gone Shootin" is almost all eighth notes on A, but he pumps it up to boost the rhythm void left when Angus goes to his solo. Then he throws in a tasty one drop groove in at the end. Did I mention he sings backup as well?

 

3. Bernard Edwards of Chic - Wrote the bassline for Good Times and Le Freak. Both were sampled in hip hop, Good Times is now known as Rapper's Delight

 

4. "Billy Bass" Nelson - Funkadelic's original bassist Laid down the grooves on Maggot Brain. My favorites are Hit it and Quit it, and You and Your Folks

 

5. Howie Epstein RIP - Provided the bass and backup vocals for 20 years in Tom Petty's band. That in itself is impressive. I've always been a fan of Tom Petty, since I was probably 5 years old when my Dad listened to it all day. I think his playing had a deep effect on me.

 

6. Matt Malley - Counting Crows Counting Crows songs have always had warm fat basslines to them. I've always liked his work.

 

7. Mike Starr - Alice In Chains - "Would" is one of those great bass intros. Starr managed to make AIC get a little funky on God Smack, too. Not to Mention "Man in the Box"

 

8. Billy Cox - Band of Gypsys One of the greatest albums of all time. Billy had a nice overdriven tone and a serious groove to back up Jimi.

 

9. Eric Avery - Jane's Addiction - Ever hear Jane's Addiction, enough said. Also played with Alanis Morisette.

 

10. Craig Short, Richard Pascal, and Tommy Wouk - The bassists on Kurtis Blow. Not sure who played what, but some tasty basslines are on this CD.

[bassman1956]

Eldee Young. Listen to any older Ramsey Lewis Trio with him in there. He rips it real good!

[Crescent Seven]

Jeff Ament, Justin Chancellor, Greg K, Tim Cummerford...and dare I say Dr. Dre?

 

Synth bass is still bass...

 

*covers head and heads for the exit*

 

C7

[zenfascist]

Norwood Fisher from Fishbone. I mentioned him the other day. He's got this cool, laid back, deep in the pocket style and he's super talented. Hub from The Roots is an excellent player that probably doesn't get his due from a lot of the music community because he plays in a rap group.

[beam]

Patrick Dahlheimer - Plays with Live.

[sunburstbasser]

Colin Greenwood from Radiohead.

 

The virtuosos. Anyone, go ahead and start a thread about any of the mega-players and the first three posts will probably read "Hes awesome," then "Worthless Wanker," and finally "I've never heard him so he can't be that good." Distinct lack of appreciation if you ask me.

 

Steve Harris.

[Jonny Five]

Kim Deal!!!!

 

I'd hardly say Timmy C is underrated. Most of the guys on this forum who grew up listening to RATM (myself included) swear by him.

[Bass8987]

Robert DeLeo- Stone Temple Pilots

Tom Hamilton- Aerosmith (also Brad Whitford the other guitar player)

Rex Brown- Pantera and Down

Frankie Bello- Anthrax and now he is in Helmet

Garry Tallent- Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band

Michael Anthony- Van Halen

[Casper Cliche]

He's appreciated in the punk scene....but not really known outside of that. But Matt Freeman of Rancid is effing amazing..

[scythe]

Matt Wong.

[Sixgun77]

Bill Wyman-Stones

Horace Gentleman- The Specials

Billy Gould- Faith No More

[phunkyhick]

 

Originally posted by Crescent Seven Jeff Ament, Justin Chancellor, Greg K, Tim Cummerford...and dare I say Dr. Dre?

 

 

Ament, Chancellor, and Timmy C are all talked about quite a bit. Dr. Dre has some tasty ones, but still a lot of them are samples. "Let's get high" was taken off of "Backstrokin" by the Fatback Band.

[beam]

Chris Wood is another one

Damn does his playing make me wanna get an URB

[sunburstbasser]

 

Originally posted by beam Chris Wood is another one Damn does his playing make me wanna get an URB

 

 

Definately. Its him and Pattitucci that make me want an upright.

[SpaceGhost]

Percy Jones (mentioned in the fretless thread). Anytime I mention him whether it be with other bassist or not, I get the inevitable, "who?". Brand X (the band he played in with Phil Collins) came out the same time Weather Report did (IIRC) and IMHO, were much more adventerous in their compositions.

[phunkyhick]

 

Originally posted by sunburstbasser Colin Greenwood from Radiohead. The virtuosos. Anyone, go ahead and start a thread about any of the mega-players and the first three posts will probably read "Hes awesome," then "Worthless Wanker," and finally "I've never heard him so he can't be that good." Distinct lack of appreciation if you ask me. Steve Harris.

 

 

Harris gets his due love. Most of the guys I mentioned get no love, but everyone has heard them.

 

I am usually one of the ones who jumps in on the negative side of virtuoso bassists. I'm not ripping on them, but there are a lot of younger players on here asking questions about where to learn something to improve. Most of the time people start pointing to these virtuosos. But you can learn a lot more from these underappreciated bassists than you can from a virtuoso. Virtuosity comes in handy in 1% of all situations, Groove, support, and melody are what help you out the other 99% of the time. You get too caught up in what solo you can play, players forget that.

 

If your goal is to play music in a band, you are going to be far better off learning how to hit the notes with the rhythm and what notes go with the chord progression than you will be trying to play a bunch of notes behind it. You'll have a hard time finding a band and a crowd of people that will want to see that kind of thing.

[sunburstbasser]

 

Originally posted by SpaceGhost Percy Jones (mentioned in the fretless thread). Anytime I mention him whether it be with other bassist or not, I get the inevitable, "who?". Brand X (the band he played in with Phil Collins) came out the same time Weather Report did (IIRC) and IMHO, were much more adventerous in their compositions.

 

 

The earliest Brand X album I could find dated to 1975. Weather Report's first album was released in 1971 or so, so Brand X is just a few years afterwards.

 

1975 WOULD put it right up with Heavy Weather, which is when Weather Report really got big.

[SpaceGhost]

 

Originally posted by sunburstbasser The earliest Brand X album I could find dated to 1975. Weather Report's first album was released in 1971 or so, so Brand X is just a few years afterwards. 1975 WOULD put it right up with Heavy Weather, which is when Weather Report really got big.

 

oops, my fault. The first record "Unorthodox Behaviour" came out in 1976. I like both bands but I never hear anything about Percy.

[Tim in WV]

see my sig.

 

'Song of Schererezade' ( all 30 minutes of it ) is still the best bass work I've ever heard anywhere next to Jamerson, but it's all subjective.

[sunburstbasser]

 

Originally posted by phunkyhick Harris gets his due love. Most of the guys I mentioned get no love, but everyone has heard them. I am usually one of the ones who jumps in on the negative side of virtuoso bassists. I'm not ripping on them, but there are a lot of younger players on here asking questions about where to learn something to improve. Most of the time people start pointing to these virtuosos. But you can learn a lot more from these underappreciated bassists than you can from a virtuoso. Virtuosity comes in handy in 1% of all situations, Groove, support, and melody are what help you out the other 99% of the time. You get too caught up in what solo you can play, players forget that. If your goal is to play music in a band, you are going to be far better off learning how to hit the notes with the rhythm and what notes go with the chord progression than you will be trying to play a bunch of notes behind it. You'll have a hard time finding a band and a crowd of people that will want to see that kind of thing.

 

 

Except this is where you are wrong. You say that groove, support and melody are what people want, and not virtuosity. Yet the virtuosos have more groove, support and melody than damn near anyone out there including the under-appreciated. Just because they can play 1,000 notes doesn't mean they do it all the time.

 

You might not be able to find a band that wants thirty bass solos every set, but looking at Marcus Miller's discography alone discredits that having more than basic talent makes it hard to find a band.

[phunkyhick]

 

Originally posted by sunburstbasser Yet the virtuosos have more groove, support and melody than damn near anyone out there including the under-appreciated.

 

 

Horribly gross overgeneralization. Most of the virtuosos would probably agree with that. You are a little too eager to jump to the defense of the virtuosos, and didn't read into my post much.

 

My point was that learning Marcus Miller's solos will do almost nothing for a young player's groove factor. You learn the lines that him and Anthony Jackson laid down on Chaka Khan records, then you will be learning groove.

 

My point is that mastering "the Payback" will make you a much better groove player than mastering "Classical Thump".

 

But I do believe that some of the people I mentioned are very talented, and are much better groovers because they do it every day. I've never heard a virtuoso lay down anything as hardcore as "The Payback" or "Skin Tight" The payback is pretty much two notes, but to me, it is groove stripped completely naked. That song is pure groove. Skin Tight is a tricky groove, with some tricky scales, chord changes, and tonalities in it.

 

There are just so many people that I have seen who have never learned groove, and the folks they are talking about are all the virtuosos that people talk about on here. They know Marcus Miller for his solo work, and not his work with Chaka Khan.

[der oxenrig]

Originally posted by phunkyhick 8. Billy Cox - Band of Gypsys One of the greatest albums of all time. Billy had a nice overdriven tone and a serious groove to back up Jimi.

 

Billy had an overdriven tone?!? I always thought it was just a low clean thump-no treble at all. It doesn't sound overdriven to me?!?

[der oxenrig]

Oh, and we definately can't forget this guy:

[sunburstbasser]

 

Originally posted by phunkyhick Horribly gross overgeneralization. Most of the virtuosos would probably agree with that. You are a little too eager to jump to the defense of the virtuosos, and didn't read into my post much. My point was that learning Marcus Miller's solos will do almost nothing for a young player's groove factor. You learn the lines that him and Anthony Jackson laid down on Chaka Khan records, then you will be learning groove. My point is that mastering "the Payback" will make you a much better groove player than mastering "Classical Thump". But I do believe that some of the people I mentioned are very talented, and are much better groovers because they do it every day. I've never heard a virtuoso lay down anything as hardcore as "The Payback" or "Skin Tight" The payback is pretty much two notes, but to me, it is groove stripped completely naked. That song is pure groove. Skin Tight is a tricky groove, with some tricky scales, chord changes, and tonalities in it. There are just so many people that I have seen who have never learned groove, and the folks they are talking about are all the virtuosos that people talk about on here. They know Marcus Miller for his solo work, and not his work with Chaka Khan.

 

 

Thats not the virtuosos' fault. Just becaue some bassist down the street never learned how to groove doesn't make any of those guys any less capable. Learning "Classical Thump" IS all technique and mechanics, but learning "Reminiscience" takes quite a touch and a healthy sense of melody. They don't even sound like the same guy, even though they are both Wooten.

 

I don't think I was overgeneralizing at all, when your post stated that virtuosity is important in 1% of music thats as gross of an over-generalization, if not greater, than anything I said. I've known just as many bassists who don't groove because they've never heard a bass player play anything aside from a Pink Floyd or Tool song here and there. No sense of feel, time, etc, which basically goes against what you've said about how more can be learned from a non-virtuoso. A mechanical bassist can at least be sat down and told what to play and probably sound OK when the rest of the band needs to sound good.

 

How many of these bassists that listen to virtuosos and can't groove have been playing less than 3 years? I guarantee that maybe 1 in every 500 bassists might be able to groove consistently within three years of picking up the bass. I also can state that I couldn't (and I didn't even know who the heavy-hitters were until about two years ago) and I doubt that you or anyone else on this board with the possible exception of Bassius was really grooving consistently in three years.

[rikshaw]

 

Originally posted by sunburstbasser ...the possible exception of Bassius was really grooving consistently in three years.

 

 

i'd like to hear him grooving