Direct into PA?

[reidoh]

Thanks , and again... much love to the tube guys. I'm shopping for one now! Just for those gigs where I can use it cuz I'm gettin' old and feeling nostalgic. "Pedal Board Hell", here I come!

 

Please be gentle...

[Badside]

I get what you mean Reidoh, but take this into account: when I was using a modeller, I was always getting compliments on my guitar tone from people in the audience, since I moved to a Marshall tube half-stack, we always get compliments that the BAND sounds great.

Even though we play mostly small venues.

You CAN use a tube amp without cranking it. Sure it sounds better cranked, but even at lower volumes, it still sound better than a modeller IMHO.

[Jimi Ray Halen]

Originally posted by Hardtailed I get what you mean Reidoh, but take this into account: when I was using a modeller, I was always getting compliments on my guitar tone from people in the audience, since I moved to a Marshall tube half-stack, we always get compliments that the BAND sounds great. Even though we play mostly small venues. You CAN use a tube amp without cranking it. Sure it sounds better cranked, but even at lower volumes, it still sound better than a modeller IMHO.

 

So what you're saying is that people complimented your modeller tone but somehow this made the band not sound as good?

 

Because the way that everything is run thru the PA nowadays nobody hears your amp too much in the audience unless you crank it loud enough to compete with the stacks.

 

I know a guy who does this and they put very little of his 1/2 stack thru the PA. And he plays f'ing loud! This would drive a lot of sound guys crazy but everybody knows him and even if they don't, once they hear him play they leave him alone. He's sort of a throwback to the olden days when a stack was your own personal guitar PA for large venues but Jebus - what a player! And his tone is so perfect it makes you want to cry.

 

I think his hands have something to do with this.

[maxnew40]

I guess I am the guy that uses a modeller but doesn't use the built in effects much. I am just not a big effects player anyway unless you count reverb which I do use. I sometimes use a touch of chorus and now and then a touch of delay.

 

When I used a POD I used my TC Electronics G-Major because the effects in the POD 2.0 are just not very good at all. The small number of effects built into the HD-147 work for me but I really don't use them much.

 

Max

[Badside]

Originally posted by Jimi Ray Halen So what you're saying is that people complimented your modeller tone but somehow this made the band not sound as good?

 

Basically yeah, the modeller (Pod Pro at the time) sounded good by itself but didn't mix in with the other instruments as well. The Marshall on the other hand isn't so exciting by itself, but it just takes it space in the mix all by itself (unless I scoop the mids but that ain't my thing) and compliment the other instruments and make the band sound better. Instead of sounding like 4 instruments playing at the same time, it now sound like an "ensemble".

 

Like I said, the fact that you have a tube stack, doesn't mean you have to crank it. It'll still be way more dynamic than a modeller even at low volume. I don't even need a clean channel anymore, I just use the volume knob and fire my overdrive pedal (original Marshall Guv'nor) for more gain when required, this gives me way more flexibility and allows me to move around the stage instead of always having to come back to change patches.

 

Anyway, to each his own

[reidoh]

 

Originally posted by Hardtailed Like I said, the fact that you have a tube stack, doesn't mean you have to crank it. It'll still be way more dynamic than a modeller even at low volume. I don't even need a clean channel anymore, I just use the volume knob and fire my overdrive pedal (original Marshall Guv'nor) for more gain when required, this gives me way more flexibility and allows me to move around the stage instead of always having to come back to change patches.

 

 

I can dig where you are coming from and think that it is very important to keep one thing in mind. There are very few, if any , modelers that model a solid state amp. So I believe that without question, the concensus best tones come from tube amps. The debate here was about going direct, and I feel that players like you are more the exception than the rule. And that has nothing to do with tubes or anything - playing musically is key. I just feel that modelers if used correctly are a great thing! I as well, only use limited effects from my pod (some delay , some chorus , some reverb) and actually prefer a dry sound on any guitar. I do mainly classic rock covers, so this suits me.

 

Anyway, rock on!

[maxnew40]

Well reidoh I guess you didn't see the model of the roland JC 120 in the line 6 stuff which is one of the most acclaimed solid state amps out there.

 

BB King uses solid state amps and I haven't heard many complain about his tone sucking.

 

Why do so many guitar players use so many effects that you can't really hear the sound of the actual guitar anymore. I have seen to many bands where the guitar just sounds like mush or is just a big swoosh from too much effects. Effects tend to cover up your actual playing for some I suppose that is a good thing.

 

Max

[reidoh]

I stand corrected! Neglected the JC 120. How could I have neglected such a great amp?

 

I think we're together on the effects thing, though. Why so much? A little goes a long way.

[maxnew40]

I think part of the problem with the effects thing is those effects processors and the presets in those things. The presets are usually way over the top with the effects mix so that they showcase what the device can do. When you try the thing out in the store I guess they want it in your face. However you really need to be a little more subtle with the effects mix when you actually use the thing in a band context.

 

Max

[bonscottvocals]

Maxnew, that's why most people think modelers suck. To be honest, if the company would have some realistic sounds in there, instead of over-the-top, show-off stuff, then they might be liked more. Also, the volume and tone settings are all over the place, so you wind up cutting through at some times and not at others.

[unichord]

 

Originally posted by bonscottvocals Maxnew, that's why most people think modelers suck. To be honest, if the company would have some realistic sounds in there, instead of over-the-top, show-off stuff, then they might be liked more. Also, the volume and tone settings are all over the place, so you wind up cutting through at some times and not at others.

 

 

Exactly my point about most people not tweaking the sounds....then dissing the modellers.

 

Stay away from the presets. They are just to show the wide range of tones that the amps can produce - aren't really usable for the most part. And...if you "audition" them at your local Guitar Center - you get the "presets" pre-tweaked by your friendly neighboorhood 12 year old guitarist.....(with apologies to my 12 year old students....)

 

There ARE very realistic sounds in the top-line modellers.

 

People complain about "solid state" tones - then put a "solid state" pedal in front of their amps to get the sound of a cranked Marshall or Vox.

 

Seriously - do you think a Top Boost in a Can into a Marshall sounds more like a Vox than a Vetta Model? (or Tonelab etc.)

 

I have a Vetta 1. And MANY tube amps. Including many of the amps modelled. The Vetta tones are dead-nuts on.

 

I'm not going back to tubes anytime soon.

[bonscottvocals]

 

Originally posted by unichord Stay away from the presets. They are just to show the wide range of tones that the amps can produce - aren't really usable for the most part. And...if you "audition" them at your local Guitar Center - you get the "presets" pre-tweaked by your friendly neighboorhood 12 year old guitarist.....(with apologies to my 12 year old students....) People complain about "solid state" tones - then put a "solid state" pedal in front of their amps to get the sound of a cranked Marshall or Vox.

 

 

How about the kid who feels he's gotta' tune a $3000 guitar down to dropped C, then buys a $120 budget axe and wonders what's wrong with the sound when he goes home and plays it through the included amp that's powered by two C batteries? I think we know the same kid.

 

Your second comment cracks me up. I think that's probably why I use a Vox Tonelab SE rather than the Line6 PODXTLive, it uses a real tube instead of an emulator. Still, I only use the presets that I built, not the factory crap.

[Badside]

 

Originally posted by bonscottvocals Your second comment cracks me up. I think that's probably why I use a Vox Tonelab SE rather than the Line6 PODXTLive, it uses a real tube instead of an emulator.

 

 

Ahhh the power of marketing... the Vox is still a digital "emulator", they just put a starved 12AX7 somewhere in the signal path.

 

And tweaking won't do nothing when your sound is going through a-buck-a-dozen preamp-in-a-chip and ad/dc converters.

What I hate about modellers is the muffled sound, it's like there's nothing above 10KHz. This is the sound of cheap preamps and ad conversion my friends.

 

All I'm asking Line6/Vox is too use a 12AX7 as the preamp, with real voltage being applied and then use high-quality A/D-D/A converters. Doesn't have to be a Lucid converter, but at least something better than the "Soundblaster" variety. I know the guitar sound lives in the mid frequencies, but it's the ultra-high frequencies that gives it it's attitude and definition.

 

Oh yeah, I did tweak a lot, the PodXT even comes with a parametric EQ, but when trying to compensate for this muffled top end, the only thing I got was harshness.

[MrKnobs]

There's nothing so far that sounds like power tubes overdriven into a saturated output transformer.

 

Perhaps one day...

 

Terry D.

[FryGuy]

I have a question and I don't feel like it deserves it's own thread, so here goes.

 

My amp has an output jack for extra speakers..could I take a chord and plug that into the snake so my amp would come out of the mains (church band in case you guys are wondering). Right now I have to mic it and it would be alot less trouble if it worked.

 

I guess I could always try, but I'm a {censored}. =p

[MrKnobs]

 

Originally posted by FryGuy I have a question and I don't feel like it deserves it's own thread, so here goes. My amp has an output jack for extra speakers..could I take a chord and plug that into the snake so my amp would come out of the mains (church band in case you guys are wondering). Right now I have to mic it and it would be alot less trouble if it worked. I guess I could always try, but I'm a {censored}. =p

 

 

No. You need a cheap little box called a DI, at a minimum. The output of the amp is too hot for the input of your PA, and in any case should not be directly coupled without transformer isolation (which the DI contains).

 

But even so, you'll probably be disappointed. The speaker and cabinet have a big effect on the sound. Taking a line out directly sounds very different, usually a lot brighter.

 

They make inexpensive DIs that include "cabinet emulation," or "speaker emulation." These boxes perform the same function as a plain DI, but also include a tone shaping network that makes the output sound similar to a miked cabinet.

 

Behringer makes one that doesn't suck too bad, for not much money.

 

A&H makes their Red Box DI which is an industry standard.

 

Terry D.

[FryGuy]

 

Originally posted by MrKnobs No. You need a cheap little box called a DI, at a minimum. The output of the amp is too hot for the input of your PA, and in any case should not be directly coupled without transformer isolation (which the DI contains). But even so, you'll probably be disappointed. The speaker and cabinet have a big effect on the sound. Taking a line out directly sounds very different, usually a lot brighter. They make inexpensive DIs that include "cabinet emulation," or "speaker emulation." These boxes perform the same function as a plain DI, but also include a tone shaping network that makes the output sound similar to a miked cabinet. Behringer makes one that doesn't suck too bad, for not much money. A&H makes their Red Box DI which is an industry standard. Terry D.

 

 

 

[studiojunkie]

I played in a band for 5 years that ran all instruments directly, even the drums which were Roland. The only issue really is the guitar because let's face it, keys and bass typically run direct even if they use an amp on stage, if you're drummer is electronic (which was our case) then he's running direct too.

 

We used no amplifiers on stage at all which was nice (and I have 3 amps and one is an original Mesa Boogie before they started numbering them), we could talk to one another, hear the mix (we ran in stereo (including the monitors) which may be another thread in it's own right) and had next to no feedback problems because our stage volume was so low (which I would assert is the number one advantage to playing direct).

 

We also ran with no sound man (although we did have a guy running the lights) which if I rememer there was an earlier post stating that if you ran direct you would have to have a sound guy. I guess my question would be, don't you think the opposite would be true? It's the amps that can cause all the problems, running direct solves most stage issues.

 

On many occasions other bands would come by to "watch the competition" and they quite often marvelled at the fact we had no sound guy, but yet our sound was often the cleanest they had ever heard (and for that I'd tip my hat to the band for putting money and time to build a top notch PA system - 3400 watts running stereo - subwoofers in mono).

 

But all that aside, it's that we were resepectful of the other band members, if the keyboardist said I was too loud, I'd turn down and the opposite was true, when it was time for a solo the other one would back off so there was no need for a volume boost. In the 5 years in the band, I only remember 2 occasions were one or all of us drank too much, don't get me wrong, we all liked to have a beer or two, but we understood that it was a job and you need to treat it as such. That's how we got it all to work.

[Jimi Ray Halen]

 

Originally posted by FryGuy I have a question and I don't feel like it deserves it's own thread, so here goes. My amp has an output jack for extra speakers..could I take a chord and plug that into the snake so my amp would come out of the mains (church band in case you guys are wondering). Right now I have to mic it and it would be alot less trouble if it worked. I guess I could always try, but I'm a {censored}. =p

 

 

If you have an effects send, that works.

[MrKnobs]

Originally posted by Jimi Ray Halen If you have an effects send, that works.

 

Well, sort of, maybe.

 

If you're using a tube amp your effect send output won't include any output tube / output transformer sound, especially if you're not playing it squeaky clean.

 

The other problem is your effects out going down a snake may not have enough output to stay quiet and accurate, and more importantly it might cause a ground loop hum.

 

You need a DI if you're gonna run down a snake.

 

Terry D.

[Jimi Ray Halen]

Originally posted by MrKnobs Well, sort of, maybe. If you're using a tube amp your effect send output won't include any output tube / output transformer sound, especially if you're not playing it squeaky clean. The other problem is your effects out going down a snake may not have enough output to stay quiet and accurate, and more importantly it might cause a ground loop hum. You need a DI if you're gonna run down a snake. Terry D.

 

Yeah, you're right. I was talking about my flex. I forgot my SM57 one night and went effects send to a Tech 21 and ran line out to the snake. Deserate times call for desperate measures. But it sounded fine.

I always use a mic. with either tube or digital.

[GOSG]

 

Originally posted by arashi One of the posters in my "do I need a stack" thread mentioned that he and his bassist use their PODs to plug directly into the PA for shows. I think that's a great idea and I'd like to hear from anyone who does this on a regular basis. My band will have to play in places with decent house PAs so it seems to me like its a much better way to do it than miking. Plus its less stuff to carry.

 

 

 

I work FOH sound for one band (http://www.burningbridgesband.com ) that is totally "direct". The guitars are a Pod Live unit, and a Roland VG-88, the keys and Bass are DI's, and the Drums are Roland "V-Drums". All of the monitoring is done with In-ear Monitors and each musician has their own mix. They are using the Aviom Personal Monitoring system, so each musician has ability to control their own mix.

 

 

The band performs in a wide variety of venues and the band members have been very impressed with the improvement in always being able to hear each other despite room acoustics. In addition it allows me absolute control over the SPL of the band and eliminates all leakage into the vocal microphones.

 

I don't know if it would work for every musician/band, but for them (and myself) it has DRAMATICALLY improved the band's sound & performance.

[Rossiband]

I wasted hours {censored}ing with it I also had a Johnson J station and the Johnson jm60b has tube in it,and jm 50 with the J8 switch.and many other amps,but in modeling I used the Johnson stuff it sounds real ,warm and big.Our PA's are a yamaha 800wt carvin 12s, 15s and Yamaha 18 in.drivers. That is the small rig . Then we also use 2 Carvin 2500wt with a mixer and sound enhancer any way .

I bought a piece of crap PODxt live First off takes way to much floor space, next I used side by side with the johnson j station. I wasted weeks trying to get my sounds over to the POD. I went online used other peoples settings , I finally gave up on the POD it always sounded thin, like a box of chips, no tone at least the way I am use to.

I have found it has worked for me at least, My jstation to an amp in my case Mesa Boogie, use your amp as your moniter, line out or milk out to PA. but the best way for me is the jOHNSON MARQUIIS JM60 lined out it also has a speaker out to so I can stereo myself .

 

You will find many house PAs are different you won't sound the same on any two,at least you have a lilttle control with a floor pedel in my case J8 pedel

On short peramp to tube amp/moniter then to PA.

 

I was trying to get away from johnson stuff because its out of production. ,I think I'll just stock up on what I can ,and make what I have last .

Oh ,one other thing letting anyone control your sound you don't trust is suicide,

Way to much info , sorry

[Rossiband]

How expensive ie personal monitor set up?

[Rossiband]

and dose it work for a guitar player lead singer.{personal monitor set up}