Members Sir Don Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 This was really difficult. Here's how it went. Our singer has been with us for two years, he also plays keys on a few songs and can play guitar although he has been doing less of this over the last twelve months. Anyway, for the last year he has been trying to get his pilots license to become a commercial pilot. This is occupying more and more of his time. It got to the stage whereby he was cancelling rehearsals every couple of weeks. About three months ago it came to a head when he told the rest of the band that he can't rehearse on Saturdays any more because he wants to work at the airfield. He also said that he was flexible about this (which means to me that he could do a Saturday every so often). As it turned out we have not done a Saturday since this was mentioned (mid August). OK. We got around that by getting together on Sundays (which no one else in the band was keen on). Then the cancellations started. The rest of us got together to attempt to deal with this as best we could. It was resolved to audition another singer that our bass player knows. We had her back twice and she was quite good if a little young and inexperienced. We then decided that we have to make a decision. We spoke to our singer about his committment to the band and the fact that we really haven't gone forward over the last few months due to lack of rehearsals. He said he was committed as ever so we kept going with him. Two weeks later the cancellations began again, he would say he was available for a rehearsal but change it at the last minute. On Saturday last he sent everyone in the band a text message saying he was sick and could not practice. OK, if your sick that's understandable. I took a drive past his house only to find that his car was not in the driveway. The rest of the band thought he was at the airfield (as it was a great day for flying on Saturday). It was then decided that he had to go. To cut it short, he came over to my place to pick his stuff up on Saturday night. He was quite upset, not angry. I explained the situation to him (which was not easy as he turned up without notice so I was not prepared and didn't know what our drummer had said to him, he was the one who told him he was out). Anyway, I do feel like a bit of an a$$hole as he is a good friend and can sing fairly well. He has been in a band with the drummer for the last 10 years. He said he feels as though we have let him down and, I must admit, I felt great remorse when he had left with his equipment. Thanks for reading, had to get that off my chest. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 You have your metaphors mixed! Here, "marching orders" are instructions. What you mean is "walking papers" or "pink slip". That being said, it sucks whenever you have to let someone go. I had to let a very good bass player go awhile back. And it was really hard, because good bass players are at a premium here. But he was having conflict with my drumnmer, and at first started talking about it with other guys in my band, a big no-no since I hire all my guys and I made it clear when they came onboard that any conflicts with anyone else came to me first. It was poisoning my band behind my back. But then he did the ultimate thing to get on my {censored} list, which was take it outside the family and start badmouthing the drummer to other musicians and bands. I told him that I couldn't keep him now, even if I wanted to, because if I did, what would it say to my drummer, or anyone else in my band he decided to badmouth? So I axed him. I understand you feeling bad, but really, this guy made his bed and has to lie in it. Maybe if he gets a chance again, be it with you or someone else, he'll take it more seriously. I wouldn't let him turn it around to be your fault that he feels upset. I'd just remind him that it was he who couldn't honor his commitments, not you or your band. Don't let him get away with that passive/aggressive BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oldheartofmine Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 It's disrespectful to not show and lie about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Roy Brooks Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 He probably should have said that he couldn't be as committed to the band because he has other priorities. Unfortunately he didn't. He basically made it hard on himself by not being straight up about it. I also agree with BlueStrat. Passive/aggressive is ghey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dime12804 Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 Sounds like you had good cause and it also sounds like you took plenty of time in making this decision. You did all ya could. It really seems like you handled this the best way you could. I also agree that you shouldn't let this bother you. It was his problem, whether legit or not, sometimes it's just not beneficial for people to remain involved in any situation, be it a relationship, employment, or a band. That said, I can't stand the attitude that one man is "in charge" of the bands decisions. Our guitar player kinda takes on that role and I know it's been a source of frustration and aggrevation for the others. He's a good guy and all, but that attitude is nothing short of an intimidation factor and it's not something that benefits a band in any way. The thing is, a lot of times, those who take on this attitude will look at it as an employment issue. As if they're the boss and you're the subordinate. Sorry, but I offer up my services and you aren't paying me, feeding me, or fukkin' me, so I doubt sincerely that you hold any position over me. The guys I play with are all great guys and I love playting with them, but I'd walk in a second if they ever started treating me like I was a subordinate. We've had a few moments and I've bitten my tongue, but I also make it known that I love what I'm doing, but don't need to be doing it. I guess I just don't understand why some feel like they need to have any more control than another. These sort of things should always be a concensus decsion of all members involved. Just my take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 Originally posted by Dime12804 Sounds like you had good cause and it also sounds like you took plenty of time in making this decision. You did all ya could. It really seems like you handled this the best way you could. I also agree that you shouldn't let this bother you. It was his problem, whether legit or not, sometimes it's just not beneficial for people to remain involved in any situation, be it a relationship, employment, or a band. That said, I can't stand the attitude that one man is "in charge" of the bands decisions. Our guitar player kinda takes on that role and I know it's been a source of frustration and aggrevation for the others. He's a good guy and all, but that attitude is nothing short of an intimidation factor and it's not something that benefits a band in any way. The thing is, a lot of times, those who take on this attitude will look at it as an employment issue. As if they're the boss and you're the subordinate. Sorry, but I offer up my services and you aren't paying me, feeding me, or fukkin' me, so I doubt sincerely that you hold any position over me. The guys I play with are all great guys and I love playting with them, but I'd walk in a second if they ever started treating me like I was a subordinate. We've had a few moments and I've bitten my tongue, but I also make it known that I love what I'm doing, but don't need to be doing it. I guess I just don't understand why some feel like they need to have any more control than another. These sort of things should always be a concensus decsion of all members involved. Just my take. I run my band that way because 1) I own the PA, 2) I book the gigs, 3) I pay for all the recording and the manufacturing of the CDs, 4) I write all the songs, 5) I pay for the transportation, 6) if a gig is out of town and rooms are not provided, I pay for them, 7) I pay for all the promo, 8) the band is under my name, 9) I guarantee my guys a minimum of 100 bucks a night regardless of what the gig pays, which means if anything goes wrong, I pay them out of my pocket, and sometimes they get paid when I don't. So, in a nutshell, they ARE employees. If they don't like it, they're free to walk. Thankfully, they don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dime12804 Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 BlueStrat....Under those circumstances, I understand. However, that's not the case very often. I guess for me, since I don't really give a damn about the money, I think it should be a collaborative effort between all involved and nobody should be made to feel as if they're any more or less important than another member of the band. For me, if it isn't fun anymore, I'm out. And it's no fun being made to feel like I'm unimportant. I could get that from a woman if I wanted to. LMAO. Let me edit this to say, this opinion of mine is a collection of experienes for me over time. The guitar player owns the PA system and he's sunk a buttload of money into it, so he has the right to want the best from the band and I'd never deny him that. It's not a bad situation that we have going right now, but I'd be lying if I said that, sometimes, the overtones aren't present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members crispete Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 Originally posted by BlueStrat I run my band that way because 1) I own the PA, 2) I book the gigs, 3) I pay for all the recording and the manufacturing of the CDs, 4) I write all the songs, 5) I pay for the transportation, 6) if a gig is out of town and rooms are not provided, I pay for them, 7) I pay for all the promo, 8) the band is under my name, 9) I guarantee my guys a minimum of 100 bucks a night regardless of what the gig pays, which means if anything goes wrong, I pay them out of my pocket, and sometimes they get paid when I don't. So, in a nutshell, they ARE employees. If they don't like it, they're free to walk. Thankfully, they don't. I only wish there were more employers like BlueStrat. Sounds like a great job to me! The singer had to go even if he didn't know it. He was just being a flake, that's all. Too bad he was wasting everybody's time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhat Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 Originally posted by Sir Don This was really difficult. Here's how it went. Our singer has been with us for two years, he also plays keys on a few songs and can play guitar although he has been doing less of this over the last twelve months. Anyway, for the last year he has been trying to get his pilots license to become a commercial pilot. This is occupying more and more of his time. Face the reality it the flying bug really has him..... you wont pry him away. The day he gets his commercial lic ,, he will start working on his flight instructor rating. The day he gets that... he will be at the airport , 7 days a week, sun up to sun down if he is serious. Aviaiton hasnt changed much over the years ... it takes all of your money and all of your time. rat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oldheartofmine Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 I'd like to be able to run a band like that one day, as bluestrat does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gspointer Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 Originally posted by Sir Don This was really difficult. Here's how it went. It was resolved to audition another singer that our bass player knows. We had her back twice and she was quite good if a little young and inexperienced. We then decided that we have to make a decision. . I really hope I am mis-reading this. I seems you auditioned before you fired him. I hope this is not the case. I wouldn't treat people that are not my friends this way. If they aren't working out, get rid of them, don't make it dependant upon finding a replacement first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sir Don Posted December 11, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 Originally posted by gspointer I really hope I am mis-reading this. I seems you auditioned before you fired him. I hope this is not the case. I wouldn't treat people that are not my friends this way. If they aren't working out, get rid of them, don't make it dependant upon finding a replacement first. We could see what was on the horizon so I don't consider it a breach of trust, additionally we have committments to fullfill in the coming weeks. We are not too keen on cancelling while we audition and bring someone up to speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 Originally posted by gspointer I really hope I am mis-reading this. I seems you auditioned before you fired him. I hope this is not the case. I wouldn't treat people that are not my friends this way. If they aren't working out, get rid of them, don't make it dependant upon finding a replacement first. I see your point but respectfully disagree. I wouldn't make a move until I had a replacement. Friends is friends, but business is business. Sounds like the guy wan't being much of a friend himself anyway, so why is he owed anything special? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jjbraunius Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 Better to shave off the flakes early. I used to tolerate a singer in one of my ex bands and he bailed on us on the industry showcase we had with an A&R guy! What I am trying to say is - good that you dealt with this then and there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members elvis06 Posted December 12, 2006 Members Share Posted December 12, 2006 Originally posted by gspointer I really hope I am mis-reading this. I seems you auditioned before you fired him. I hope this is not the case. I wouldn't treat people that are not my friends this way. If they aren't working out, get rid of them, don't make it dependant upon finding a replacement first. I don't see anything wrong with it. They confronted him with the issue, gave him a chance and the ony thing he proved was that they couldn't take his word for anything. It sucks to have to cut someone lilke that but if he is holding the band from moving forward well than something has to be done or the band is done. The band didn't let him down he let the band down. the way i see it they were only preparing themselves for what they thought might be coming in the future. Nothing wrong with being prepared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted December 12, 2006 Members Share Posted December 12, 2006 Originally posted by jjbraunius Better to shave off the flakes early. Indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gspointer Posted December 12, 2006 Members Share Posted December 12, 2006 I have no issues with firing him. The timing seems to imply that, had the other singer washed out on the audition, they would have kept the original singer while auditioning replacements. If they were up-front, that is great and no problems, if he was not aware they were holding auditions for his replacement that is pretty lame. I don't like "back-room" politics and I don't like doing things behind peoples backs. If he is unacceptable, fire him, then find a replacement. If my band does anything like that, they will be auditioning for my replacement also. You have to keep in mind that I do this for fun, I don't even make 20k a year playing music so I have a regular job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cooterbrown Posted December 12, 2006 Members Share Posted December 12, 2006 Originally posted by oldheartofmine I'd like to be able to run a band like that one day, as bluestrat does. Not me...I wouldn't want that kind of responsibility.That takes a lot of patience and drive.I wouldn't mind working for someone like BS, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarsjb Posted December 12, 2006 Members Share Posted December 12, 2006 I feel for ya, we went through the same thing with our other guitarist not too long ago. We didn't have any auditions prior to letting him go..only because..guitarist grow on trees around here. We knew it wouldn't take long. 5 auditions (in 3 days) later..we have an awesome dedicated guitarist. If it had been the bass player or drummer, I probably would have auditioned some before we let the other go if we had shows coming up. If the calendar was clear..probably not. Selfish..sure..it's business. I'm here for the fun, but I'm here to make a few bucks too, and if keeping someone who can play and not be an embarrassment on stage for a few shows gets us the few bucks..why not?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Janx Posted December 12, 2006 Members Share Posted December 12, 2006 Originally posted by gspointer I really hope I am mis-reading this. I seems you auditioned before you fired him. I hope this is not the case. I wouldn't treat people that are not my friends this way. If they aren't working out, get rid of them, don't make it dependant upon finding a replacement first. Seems other folks don't share this sentiment. If you were gonna quit your job, would you line up a new job before you gave notice? Most folks would, and it is sound business practice, especially if you don't have savings to support you during the job hunt. This is the same thing, except done by the employer instead. If you have a problem employee, the ideal is to fire him on Friday, and have his replacement show up on Monday. That can't happen unless you do some quiet interviewing and hiring. Is it a heartless, cold thing to do? Probably. Depending on the nature of the problem employee, they may not deserve any better. While I condone such strategy, it would be wise to remember, how you let people go may come back to you. It may gain you a good or bad reputation with other musicians, if the story spreads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted December 12, 2006 Members Share Posted December 12, 2006 Originally posted by BlueStrat I see your point but respectfully disagree. I wouldn't make a move until I had a replacement. Friends is friends, but business is business. Sounds like the guy wan't being much of a friend himself anyway, so why is he owed anything special? Exactly. If the guy had been honest himself, this whole thing wouldn't have happened. He'd have said "I just can't be as committed to the band anymore. Why don't you guys look for a replacement and I'll continue to fill in for any gigs we already have booked, so you don't have to cancel." And the band gave him ample opportunities to get out gracefully. He didn't do that, he lied and snuck around behind everyone's backs while continuing to give lip service to saying he was committed. The band doesn't want to have to cancel gigs, so they started looking for a replacement. I'm all about loyalty and friendship in bands and have sacrificed a lot for that, but as soon as somebody proves they're dishonest and disrespectful to the relationship, they are no longer owed anything and it's just self flagellating to continue treating them as a trusted friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sir Don Posted December 12, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 12, 2006 It's always going to be a case of "never burn your bridges." A couple of days after he had left I spoke to the drummer about the whole thing, he had spoken to him (the singer) and got the impression that he was relieved to be out of the band. This could have been a case of being pushed rather than jumping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bobvex Posted December 12, 2006 Members Share Posted December 12, 2006 Originally posted by BlueStrat You have your metaphors mixed! Here, "marching orders" are instructions. What you mean is "walking papers" or "pink slip". That being said, it sucks whenever you have to let someone go. I had to let a very good bass player go awhile back. And it was really hard, because good bass players are at a premium here. But he was having conflict with my drumnmer, and at first started talking about it with other guys in my band, a big no-no since I hire all my guys and I made it clear when they came onboard that any conflicts with anyone else came to me first. It was poisoning my band behind my back. But then he did the ultimate thing to get on my {censored} list, which was take it outside the family and start badmouthing the drummer to other musicians and bands. I told him that I couldn't keep him now, even if I wanted to, because if I did, what would it say to my drummer, or anyone else in my band he decided to badmouth? So I axed him. I understand you feeling bad, but really, this guy made his bed and has to lie in it. Maybe if he gets a chance again, be it with you or someone else, he'll take it more seriously. I wouldn't let him turn it around to be your fault that he feels upset. I'd just remind him that it was he who couldn't honor his commitments, not you or your band. Don't let him get away with that passive/aggressive BS. I never, ever, got any walking papers. Never got a pink slip. You kno what would happen, a guy ould come to my desk and say "GET THE {censored} OUTTA HERE!!!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JohnnyX Posted December 12, 2006 Members Share Posted December 12, 2006 You did the right thing sir don ... u just took to long to do it!! once the cancellations start its over unless everyone knows they are for real but then again when u move the time frame and day and they still keep comin ... its over!! When u have a band u need more than 1 good to decent singers so when one leaves u still have enuff left... idealy 4 pieces that play and sing... even 3 singers can kill! but theres nothing like a singer thats bad and dont even know it to kill a band quick! i'm a strickler for vocals u can be mediocre musicinas but if u can kick butt with vocals u are worth your weight!! so dont worry about the slacker and move on!! gspointer: if u get rid of first u waste time auditioning.. u prime someone to replace the slacker so the gigs can still roll. even a friend will dog u a few times in life.... Not like he wasnt getting a share of the money when he was workin. i mean if you're speaking of a relationship yes the proper thing to do would be tell her goodbye then hit the streets but most of the time before that u already have someone to know who u want to be with. so its still a no win situation. just like band members that are practicing with someone else and no one knows until they just say... i'm gone. ya they're gone meaning the other band is ready to go.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JohnnyX Posted December 13, 2006 Members Share Posted December 13, 2006 You have your metaphors mixed! Here, "marching orders" are instructions. What you mean is "walking papers" or "pink slip". same difference... they're all instructions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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